Subvert Indians

[Cromagnonman]

I tried this a couple times the Far West, once on the Pima in Western Arizona and also on the Apache north of Santa Fe. Nothing ever seemed to come of it - the Indians stayed neutral and my money disappeared. A line in the messagelog stated the Union was trying to influence the Indians, but didn't say anything about failure. The nearest secessionists were in El Paso. Does this maybe take a few turns to have effect, or is it broken like the officers' Hated Occupant etc special abilities?

[Captain_Orso]

I've used it successfully a few times. There is a small chance of it not working.

The once you've played the RGD, during that turn's execution:

A script is run which selects all the Indian units in the target region and counts them. Let's call this the I_Count.
- Then a 100 sided die is rolled 6 times (electronically, of course). The I_Count must be lower than the d100 roll all 6 times.
-- The first time the I_Count is >= a d100 roll, the script fails and you don't get any Indian units.
- If all 6 rolls are successful, you gain control over all Indian units, including leaders, in the target region.[SUP]1)[/SUP]

So the more Indian units in the region, the greater the chance of the RGD failing, but not really by much.

Also, you can use the Indian Cooperation RGD first to call more Indian units into play in a village, before using the Subvert Indians RGD, so to bag more Indian units in one go.

[SUP]1)[/SUP] Also works on the Indians of the Dakota Uprising

[tribeticus]

I think I have tried to subvert Indians about 100 times and I have never been successful.

I've put units in the same box, adjacent box, tried with Indians in a village, next a village. I am pretty sure I have tried everything. I have reloaded over and over tried to get a different roll of the dice.

Nothing. Am I just the unluckiest Indian recruiter of all time?

[ArmChairGeneral]

tribeticus,
That is my experience as well. I haven't gotten it to work yet (and there are precious few places to do it in the first place).

Also, where are the Comanches? Not sure what they were actually doing during the CW, but from Texas Independence all the way to the early 1870s they were much stronger than the Texans. Fighting (massacring) Comanches is what the Texas Rangers were created for. They weren't defeated until the buffalo herds they depended on were finally exterminated.

[tribeticus]

tribeticus,
That is my experience as well. I haven't gotten it to work yet (and there are precious few places to do it in the first place).

Also, where are the Comanches? Not sure what they were actually doing during the CW, but from Texas Independence all the way to the early 1870s they were much stronger than the Texans. Fighting (massacring) Comanches is what the Texas Rangers were created for. They weren't defeated until the buffalo herds they depended on were finally exterminated.

Well I am glad I am not the only one! I even see people subvert Little Crow but I have no luck there either.

And yes you are so right that the Comanches and other tribes were very powerful and there are only a couple of Indian Units in the game.

It would be nice to at least subvert one Indian unit once in a while...

[W.Barksdale]

This is exactly why, in the past, I advocated for getting rid of many of these features. There are so many that have marginal impact on the game and don't even work. Unfortunately, there are also many that (could) have a big impact on the game, for example, the Hated Occupant special ability as alluded to above and also don't work (I am assuming this is the case for Hated Occupant as I haven't tested myself, although I do know there are many others which do not work properly). It would be much better for the company to concentrate on getting the core RGD and special abilities working as designed as opposed to having a ton of features which don't work.

[tribeticus]

This is exactly why, in the past, I advocated for getting rid of many of these features. There are so many that have marginal impact on the game and don't even work. Unfortunately, there are also many that (could) have a big impact on the game, for example, the Hated Occupant special ability as alluded to above and also don't work (I am assuming this is the case for Hated Occupant as I haven't tested myself, although I do know there are many others which do not work properly). It would be much better for the company to concentrate on getting the core RGD and special abilities working as designed as opposed to having a ton of features which don't work.

True! Especially when it involves wasting valuable resources, i.e. lots of money, trying to subvert an Indian who will not subvert!

I will keep trying and let you know if I am ever successful, but its been a couple years now...

[Cromagnonman]

I played the various Indian cards when the Great Sioux Uprising event fired, and it was almost universally successful. Once the war was over, they stopped working again (but I did have a few very expensive Indian units in my army). I would posit that, although the RDCs say they work on both hostile & neutral Indians, in fact they only work on hostiles.

[tribeticus]

I played the various Indian cards when the Great Sioux Uprising event fired, and it was almost universally successful. Once the war was over, they stopped working again (but I did have a few very expensive Indian units in my army). I would posit that, although the RDCs say they work on both hostile & neutral Indians, in fact they only work on hostiles.

Great Input!!! I will try that!!!

[tribeticus]

Hey just for the record, I waited until the Sioux uprising and I subverted an Indian unit for the first time.

I was unable to get Little Crow, but I did get his other band of warriors which was pretty cool, then I went back and tried again and got three total units including Little Crow.

So for me the mystery is resolved. It is very easy to Subvert Indians, however so far I have been unable to subvert any neutral units, only enemy units.

[LCcmdr]

I tried this a couple times the Far West, once on the Pima in Western Arizona and also on the Apache north of Santa Fe. Nothing ever seemed to come of it - the Indians stayed neutral and my money disappeared. A line in the messagelog stated the Union was trying to influence the Indians, but didn't say anything about failure. The nearest secessionists were in El Paso. Does this maybe take a few turns to have effect, or is it broken like the officers' Hated Occupant etc special abilities?

I'm so glad to learn that it's not just my bad luck for this option never firing. I don't tough that card anymore.

[Cardinal Ape]

This is absurd. The only natives that can be bribed with cash are those of Little Crow's war?

The uprising would never have occurred if the government was willing to give them credit for food. How'd Myrick say it again? Ya, "So far as I am concerned, if they are hungry let them eat grass or their own dung." When they found Myrick's corpse guess what they found in his mouth... No no, the Union policies toward the tribes did not involve giving them any kind of resources during war time. It ended with largest mass execution in US history.

[tribeticus]

This is absurd. The only natives that can be bribed with cash are those of Little Crow's war?

The uprising would never have occurred if the government was willing to give them credit for food. How'd Myrick say it again? Ya, "So far as I am concerned, if they are hungry let them eat grass or their own dung." When they found Myrick's corpse guess what they found in his mouth... No no, the Union policies toward the tribes did not involve giving them any kind of resources during war time. It ended with largest mass execution in US history.

This is true. Aside from being happy to use Indian units, I must agree that these would be units most impossible to be bribed in real life.

That is why I never tried bribing them before, I figured it would be impossible, so I tried bribing the neutral ones in the southwest. But they can only be bribed when they are at war against us...

[Captain_Orso]

Edit: .

[tribeticus]

Edit: .

By the way, I was able to subvert Stand Watie! He hung out in California and I was actually trying to subvert a lone Pima unit but got him instead....

[Captain_Orso]

So, here's the situation. There are two steps to each Regional Decision:

1. Playing the RGD, which has its own restrictions.
2. When the RGD comes to fruition, an event is triggered which must also succeed. The Subvert Indians RGD come to fruition after one turn, so at the start of the turn right after play the RGD.

The Subvert Indians RGD itself works, to the greatest extent. The part of the RGD which I find problematic is that it requires an Indian Village in the target region.

The problem with this--I'm not actually certain this is still an issue, as I experience it a long, long time ago--is that neutral Indians sometimes move about, and in doing so, they can gain MC in non-Indian region, where there is no village. Many regions containing an Indian village belong to the Indian faction and cannot be entered during the game, except during the Sioux Uprising event, in which all Indians become hostile to the Union, because the game has all non-Union and non-Confederate Indians belonging to the "IND" faction. So when the Lakota go on the warpath in Minnesota, all other Indian units do too, regardless of where they are. At any rate, if a neutral Indian unit stops and gains MC in a region you need to have control of--eg where a Stockade is--it is very difficult to reregain control in the region, because the Indian unit reduces your influence.

Since the RGD requires an Indian village in the target region for it be be eligible to be played there, such rogue Indian units cannot be attacked nor subverted.

Unfortunately the parameters of the RGD's does not allow for checking for a neutral Indian unit in the target region. The only workaround I've found for this is to remove the requirement of the Indian village. This works, but it also allows the player to play the Subvert Indians RGD in any region in or adjacent to a region in which the player has an infantry or cavalry unit, including regions in which there are on neutral Indians at all, which means the player will have wasted the $45k in paying for nothing.

The other issue is that the event triggered by the RGD simply does not work. It checks for 'Enemy' elements in the target region, but neutral Indian elements are per definition not 'Enemy'. This is easily fixed by simply not checking for 'Enemy' elements.

Once that is fixed, there is an issue that the formerly 'IND' Indian unit(s) are generally still locked, and won't unlock either, unless attacked. This is easily fixed by adding to the event that the just taken-over unit(s) are set to unlocked.

So, if you don't have to change anything in the RGD's to get them to work, but if you want to be able to subvert Indians which are not in an Indian Village region you need to do this:

!!- Remember, anytime you change any files in the game, you are responsible to make a copy of the original in a safe place. -!!

Navigate to '..\CivilWarII\CW2\GameData\RgnDecisions' and edit '21-Subvert Indians CSA.rgd' and '24-Subvert Indians USA.rgd'. In each search for the line reading:

NeedThisStrucAttribAny = #Is_NativeVillage#

and comment it out by adding '// ' (without the quotes) to the beginning of the line so that it looks like this:

// NeedThisStrucAttribAny = #Is_NativeVillage#

Alternatively, you can simply delete the line.

To fis the events, navigate to '..\CivilWarII\CW2\Events' and edit RegionsDecisions.sct. Search for 'RGDScriptSubvertIndiansUSA' and 'RGDScriptSubvertIndiansCSA' events, they are one right after the other. Delete the old events and replace them with this:

Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansUSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

SelectFaction = IND
Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = USA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit
  AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;SetFixing 0

EndEvent

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansCSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

SelectFaction = IND
Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = CSA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit
  AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;SetFixing 0

EndEvent

That's it kids, happy hunting!

BTW you cannot subvert enemy Indians with this solution.

[Cardinal Ape]

Thank you Captain_Orso. I hope this gets added into any future patch.