Economic Strategies

[seathom]

When other nations started offering large quantities of products for sale, I did the same. So, for instance, when Prussia was offering 450 steel, I offered 600 in hopes that customers would come to me. I had been doing this since practically the start of the game. It terribly skewed my perception of what my actual stockpiles were so I stopped doing this and only offered a little more than what was requested. As a player, I would take amount offered from another nation into my equation as to whom I would buy products from (to better guarantee actual purchase of needed items), does the AI?

Are there any ways to stimulate world economies so nations would be more inclined to purchase products? Raw materials and food products are selling very cheaply right now (July, 1866) possibly due to overabundance of products offered. Finished products are also selling quite cheaply, yet there are few buyers for any products. The few products that have more requests than offers are (to my recollection) fruits, tobacco, supply, ammo, tropical fruits, textiles, luxury goods and gold. With the exception of supply and ammo, I cannot produce any more of these products locally.

I had started building some factories oversees, just to get my hands on needed luxuries to satisfy local demand (silk in China and opium in Siam). I still have to try to buy these products from the nation, but I assume I have an increased chance since I own the factories! Is this a good idea?

With the exception of the products I am producing oversees, I can't seem to be able to buy other products outside of the America's, Europe and Japan. I believe I have merchant ships in every trade box (would be nice to be able to scroll through these boxes or at least make them easy to see on the map!) and I am pretty sure I have commercial agreements with China, yet I can't seem to buy their goods. Anything I am missing?

[loki100]

few general comments. First the world trade situation varies as the game progresses. At the start things are tight, by the period 1860-80 I find that apart from the very rare stuff, its easy to buy what you need then it all tightens up again. Coal, steel and manufactured goods are harder to get as nations move to more advanced factories and rails and coal/steel based navies.

General advice - as the player, don't do mercantalism, buy stuff to sell it on if needs be. Buy in rather than produce where you can. One of the (many) genius parts to PoN is it really hammers in the mindset that todays enemy is tomorrows trading partner (and vice versa) and that there are few permanent relationships (good or bad), merely the self interest of the moment.

I tend to not produce if I can buy. The reason for this is domestic production can be quite costly (when you factor in raw materials) and its better to allocate scarce inputs to key industries.

If you have a factory overseas, its production comes back (via a trade link) to you, not to the local country. Watch out if you have relations <20, there is a risk that the nation will nationalise your assets. China in general can sell all it can produce to its own populace so rarely exports much, but can be a good importer of easy to produce food from you (I had a regular fish sale to China in my AAR).

Try not to let your domestic stockpiles go into the range where they have 'wastage' - but exceptions here maybe coal and steel. No harm in grabbing as much as you in the good times to help you when the world production reduces.

I've found the AI is not very good at upgrading, which is one reason why coal becomes short. You may, about 1880, want to write and run a few one-off events to give the AI boost in this regard - as above you may be helping a current enemy but you are also helping yourself (indirectly).

Final bit about factories/extraction sites overseas. If you go to war with that country, you'll lose them. I ended up completely dependent on coal I was mining in the US and thus was unable to challenge their late game race up the VP charts (not that I could have done much anyway). But this adds to the overall mindset that war/trade are linked and both are strategic tools to doing well.

[seathom]

As always, thanks Loki for your insights.

I will definitely take your advice about buying when you can over producing when I play the Ottomans next; the USA, however, is a VERY forgiving country in terms of economic game play. I have been doing pretty good with stopping wastage. I am very much looking forward to tight times when it comes to coal, steel and manufactured goods as I have the ability to produce tons of it but the demand just isn't there yet. I guess I just have to be patient and wait for the markets to change. I also guess that I can't do much to stimulate demand in other countries either. I will refrain from writing one-off events for upgrades (due to my lack of knowledge on that matter) and let the game's economy work since my problem right now is lack of demand, not supply. I'll be asking for help if the situation reverses itself!

Yes, China is a great customer (where do they get all that money??). Thanks for the insight into keeping relations above 20 with Siam, China and any other potential foreign investments. I'm also contemplating fighting on the side of the Chinese if the European Powers get haughty with them, after all, we were friends in WW2, so good relations should keep the silk flowing!

[James D Burns]

One thing I’ve noticed in my current USA game is apparently the AI powers are not building any factories or mines and possibly no units are getting produced as well. They are building lots of colonial stuff just no factories, mines or farms. This is a big reason I’ve placed my game on hold till the next patch comes out.

So if you plan to play in this environment I’d suggest signing some commerce agreements with other large nations so you can build factories for them that they can take/seize from you after you’re done building some stuff for them. You can break the agreement to allow relations to drop down enough for the seizures to occur after you’re done producing stuff. The US is going to dominate your games economy due to being the only nation that is building stuff so you won’t be hurting yourself much by allowing stuff to get seized.

As to world markets, things will change quite a bit as populations grow and higher level buildings come on line. I always try and build excess capacity in advance for anything I can produce because of this. The lead time to build enough stuff to catch up to a sudden drastic change in the resource demand economy is very long. It’s much better to have some excess capacity sitting idle that can pick up the slack than to try and chase changes after they occur. It also helps to spread buildings around, that way if you lose some provinces to enemy occupation during a war you can bring idle stuff online in other locations to make up for it.

Jim

[seathom]

Wow, that is bizarre that the AI powers are not building factories and mines and possibly troops in your game! They definitely are doing that in my game. I can definitely tell that their production is increasing because they keep offering more products on the market as well as railroads being built. Their military power does increase when I am not building troops, so they definitely are building them on their own. I'm not sure what is happening in your game but I am glad it's not happening in mine. I bought (again) this game and started playing in late January and have the most current patch from Steam.

[James D Burns]

If you open the save I uploaded of the USA game either before (in this forum in the managing loyalty thread) or after (in the help improve forum under the redoing events thread) the civil war, you'll see India is still very sparse as far as industries go, as far as I can tell nothing has been built by Britain. When I play Britain and make it 300+ turns into game India is awash with resource sites, so the AI definitely has construction issues.

I’d take a look at India in your game and see if it has lots of stuff built or not, you’re far enough in that almost every region should have one or more resource site by now. If not then I’d attribute the market fluctuations you are seeing to population growth and increased demand forcing the AI to turn on previously shut down industries.

Jim

[seathom]

I did check India, Canada, Ireland and Scotland to get a good perspective of what Britain has built since 1850. As of Dec. 1866 -- absolutely no new factories! They have built railroads, but you are right, they are not building new economic structures! OY VEY!

Why continue with this flaw? I am also putting my game on hold. Thanks.

[HerrDan]

It's strange to see you two saying this, because in my game the AI is always building new factories.

[James D Burns]

It's strange to see you two saying this, because in my game the AI is always building new factories.

In your most recent screenshots both Korea and Cuba look pretty bare of resource farms. It’s 1904 in your game I’d expect almost every region on map would be maxed out or at least have something built on it by now if resources are present. I’d be interested in a screenshot of India or the area around Sothern Africa in your game to see what’s been built.

Jim

[HerrDan]

In your most recent screenshots both Korea and Cuba look pretty bare of resource farms. It’s 1904 in your game I’d expect almost every region on map would be maxed out or at least have something built on it by now if resources are present. I’d be interested in a screenshot of India or the area around Sothern Africa in your game to see what’s been built.

Jim

I'll post screenshots to show the AI building, even though I don't think it's such a major issue as we can solve it through events.

[seathom]

I'd appreciate those screenshots too! For me it is a monumental event. I've been putting off learning how to script events until I absolutely needed to nudge something in the game. To have all my major competitors not building up their economies puts me at such an advantage (which now I realize why I was able to zoom past France in PP's) that it makes the game unplayable as is. If this is something that is just happening in the grand campaign game, I will pick up a different start date and wait for a patch; if not it will be a sad "a plus tard" to PON and "bonjour" to TEAW as I have not delved into the game since Breaking up the Deadlock came out.

[HerrDan]

I'd appreciate those screenshots too! For me it is a monumental event. I've been putting off learning how to script events until I absolutely needed to nudge something in the game. To have all my major competitors not building up their economies puts me at such an advantage (which now I realize why I was able to zoom past France in PP's) that it makes the game unplayable as is. If this is something that is just happening in the grand campaign game, I will pick up a different start date and wait for a patch; if not it will be a sad "a plus tard" to PON and "bonjour" to TEAW as I have not delved into the game since Breaking up the Deadlock came out.

I have already posted some screenshots in my AAR page, it's very easy to write events in the game, I have to agree that the AI should arguably build faster, but it does build factories by itself. And when I see that they aren't building as fast as they should, I write an event for them to build some as Loki says he did. All in all, the fact is that the AI does build facotires by itself, but, perhaps not as much as it should.

[James D Burns]

I will pick up a different start date and wait for a patch;

The 1880 start scenario gives all major powers lots of excess factory capacity. But it still lacks a lot of farms and resource mines, so the AI will need help building those since AI behavior code is the same across all scenarios. I'm hoping the next patch addresses things, but more than likely a PON 2 build will be needed to see the kind of work the game still needs to get done. Right now I think they rely almost 99% on the player community for any changes.

Jim

[seathom]

When you say we need to help the AI build factories, does that mean we actually write a script for Britain to build a manufacturing plant in Birmingham, a chemical plant in Bombay, etc. or is there a way of telling the AI to boost their chances to build a factory when certain parameters are met? If I need to tell the AI to build certain factories, I might as well go back to playing board games and role play each nation (or have a hot seat game against myself). Of course, this wouldn't be a problem for me if I played PBEM so each nation would think for itself, but my work schedule is not conducive for that play style (and my technical knowledge probably also prevents that option).

I really appreciate that you informed me of this problem, but it really threw a wet blanket on my plans today! Well, I'll keep looking at the PON threads for a glimmer of hope, but until then the Ententes better watch out for my German steamroller!

[seathom]

HerrDan did show that the AI powers were building industries late game and I assume it was without writing a script for it. I thought I'd check out the F11 screen for turn 1 and compare the number of industries, farms and mines with my current game to see how much had been created. The beginning numbers I saw are for the following countries (I left out Prussia and S-P because in my game, Italy had formed and the NGC had just annexed a bunch of states to make those nations numbers biased):

Britain 101
France 70
Austria 56
Russia 72
Japan 45

I then went to compare them with my game and the 5 new games I opened (and didn't save or process a single turn) had overwritten my game! I saved my game from the start as Thom so it wouldn't save the previous turns (to prevent me cheating). Can anyone who is playing the grand campaign and is past a few years check to see how many more economic buildings were built (as long as you did not script it)?

Does anyone know what factors the AI uses in deciding to build new economic structures for AI powers? I do assume that late game mechanics or game scripts encourage production and that is why I have not seen any (to my knowledge) as of late 1866.

Many thanks.

[James D Burns]

Well I tried using the tilde key’s cheat pop-up (this is a tilde ~) and typed the command ? to find a list of possible commands. When I tried switching to Great Britain using ChangeFaction <GBR> it says no such faction exists, lower case also failed. Same thing happened when I tried switching to France using FRA, so I think it’s busted.

I’m using the attached PDF for finding faction tags so I guess something is screwy with the tilde key commands or perhaps the PDF is outdated and tags have been changed. I know I’ve used it in the past and it worked, not sure why it no longer works.

Without the ability to switch between looking at the different AI factions I have no idea how to add up AI factories late game.

Jim

[HerrDan]

Well I tried using the tilde key’s cheat pop-up (this is a tilde ~) and typed the command ? to find a list of possible commands. When I tried switching to Great Britain using ChangeFaction <GBR> it says no such faction exists, lower case also failed. Same thing happened when I tried switching to France using FRA, so I think it’s busted.

I’m using the attached PDF for finding faction tags so I guess something is screwy with the tilde key commands or perhaps the PDF is outdated and tags have been changed. I know I’ve used it in the past and it worked, not sure why it no longer works.

Without the ability to switch between looking at the different AI factions I have no idea how to add up AI factories late game.

Jim

I remember the commands to switch faction used to work, as I used once or twice in an old save game. The only way to add factories to the AI in the game that I know of is through events, but perhaps Loki, Kensai or Christophe knows a way to do it.

[HerrDan]

I have just tested the tildes command and it seems to be working, you just don't need those "<>", just write ChangeFaction followed by the faction tag and it works.

[James D Burns]

I have just tested the tildes command and it seems to be working, you just don't need those "<>", just write ChangeFaction followed by the faction tag and it works.

Ok it worked thanks, I went in and counted all the factory/mine/farm sites on Britain’s f11 screen and they have 148 total. It’s 1866 in my game so they’ve managed to build 47 sites in 16 years which averages out to just over 2 per year. Nowhere near enough construction to be competitive in game.

The most alarming development however is the fact that besides 2 or 3 fixed fortified garrison units in Canada, they have just two mobile divisions on the west coast of Canada. That’s right every other land unit is gone, Britain has nothing left on map except the few units mentioned in Canada and some merchant ships.

I then checked FRA, GER and RUS, and they too all have no land units at all on map and only some merchant vessels no combat ships. So something is seriously wrong with the AI in game.

If you want to see this for yourself, go to the Help improve PON section of the forum and download this games save file I uploaded near the bottom of the (Redoing events ... where are we and why so slow?) thread.

Jim

[HerrDan]

Ok it worked thanks, I went in and counted all the factory/mine/farm sites on Britain’s f11 screen and they have 148 total. It’s 1866 in my game so they’ve managed to build 47 sites in 16 years which averages out to just over 2 per year. Nowhere near enough construction to be competitive in game.

The most alarming development however is the fact that besides 2 or 3 fixed fortified garrison units in Canada, they have just two mobile divisions on the west coast of Canada. That’s right every other land unit is gone, Britain has nothing left on map except the few units mentioned in Canada and some merchant ships.

I then checked FRA, GER and RUS, and they too all have no land units at all on map and only some merchant vessels no combat ships. So something is seriously wrong with the AI in game.

If you want to see this for yourself, go to the Help improve PON section of the forum and download this games save file I uploaded near the bottom of the (Redoing events ... where are we and why so slow?) thread.

Jim

That's not surprising, when you use the ChangeFaction command you cannot see the whole of the AI units, I it's WAD (I've heard it's to prevent "cheating"). The useful data is about the industries they've built/are building, as I mentioned earlier, they build slowly, we needed a way to make the AI put more emphasis on building its industrial base as it's a very important aspect of the game.

Cheers.