Supply path question

[Mickey3D]

Quick analysis : Supply status of Union forces increases from turn 47 to 48 and then stays more or less the same, meaning that each turn there is enough supply channeled to cover each stack consumption.

But when I look at the log file (I have attached the log file splitted per turn) I can only see supply flowing to Henderson and Halifax on turn 47 ?!? :

33 Gen. Supply 266 Warwick, VA > 302 Henderson, NC
23 Gen. Supply 267 Norfolk, VA > 302 Henderson, NC
5 Gen. Supply 266 Warwick, VA > 314 Halifax, NC
5 Gen. Supply 267 Norfolk, VA > 314 Halifax, NC

[ATTACH]30898[/ATTACH]

May be I'm not reading correctly the file ? By example, what is the meaning of lines like the following : Henderson, NC (Stockade - USA): 5 / 2 / 0

[Mickey3D]

As requested by pgr, I have continued the test and on turn 53 the two CSA fleets have left the Chowan River and the Albermale Sound (i.e. blockade and movement prohibition were no more effective starting with turn 54).

We can see an improvement in Union forces supply starting from turn 54 but the supply stocks do not improve (ammunition stocks has improved greatly but I did not keep track of it):

[ATTACH]30906[/ATTACH]

And here is the log file for turns 52 to 56 :
[ATTACH]30907[/ATTACH]

The very strange thing is that I can't find in it any message like "## Gen. Supply 266 Warwick, VA > 302 Henderson, NC" for Henderson, Halifax and Bertie ?!

Could someone explain me how this log should be read ?

[FelixZ]

Shouldn't there be a log showing supply movement to stacks?

[ohms_law]

This reminds me of my (always seemingly futile) attempts to take and hold West Virginia as the Confederates. I'd be very interested to hear what anyone has to say about this.

[Jim-NC]

The logs for turns 52-56 are incomplete. If you look at the log, the 1st turn (labeled 51 in the log), takes about half of the file, and includes such things as supply stocks before and after production. The other turns don't have that information. They only show sea supply movement. I think I have a partial explanation.

Looking at Norfolk VA (region 267), I see that for turn labeled 55, Norfolk wanted sea supply. It got 160, 51, 31, and 51, for a grand total of 405 supply points sent to it (the numbers for the region after sea supply are 412/250/0). It appears that the 1st number (450) is how much supply was received by the region (+ produced by region of 7)?
If you look at each turn, you get the same information.
Turn labeled 54, Norfolk got 160, 21, 354, for a grand total of 538 supply points sent to it (the numbers after sea supply are 538/291/0). It appears that 3 were produced in the region?
Turn labeled 53, Norfolk got 127,, 29, 47, and 218, for a grand total of 421 points sent to it (the numbers after sea supply are 424/231/0). It appears that 3 were produced in the region?

So it appears that the logs are incomplete when you run multiple turns (it doesn't show production for example).

[Captain_Orso]

The logs for turns 52-56 are incomplete.

8<

Yes, this is a bug. If you execute more than 1 turn without ending the game, the Supply Debugging messages are not generated.

[ohms_law]

It really makes you wonder if it's just the messages, or...

[Captain_Orso]

No, it's just the messages.

If you break the !HostLog files down to their individual turns and then check the supply status after naval distribution you will see that the status changes from one turn to Henderson, NC. So supplies are still moving; just the debugging messages are not being generated.

[Captain_Orso]

I have a speculation. This is based on only looking at the two turns with the full supply distribution reports--#46 and #51, because nothing really useful can be derived from the other turns; and because I'm not certain if turns subsequent to Turn 46 were executed without moving the CS fleets or changing control of any of the regions involved.

--

During supply distribution of Turn 46 the Stockade in Henderson, NC and most of the large stacks in Henderson and other regions south of the Chowan and Roanoke Rivers receive supplies.

During supply distribution of Turn 51 neither the Stockade in Henderson, NC nor any of the large stacks in Henderson and other regions south of the Chowan and Roanoke Rivers receive any supplies.

--

I suspect that Buchanan's fleet arrived in the Chowan River during Turn 46. Since supply production and distribution takes place before movement and not parallel to it, Buchanan's fleet does not block any supply movement across the Chowan River during that turn's execution. During subsequent turns, however, it does.

--

It seems to me, barring further information, that everything is working as it should.

[Mickey3D]

On turn 46, the Buchanan's fleet was already there for a few turns.

The Albermale Sound blockade was only effective at end of turn 45 (i.e. there was a move on turn 45 that result in blockade starting of turn 46).

[Captain_Orso]

So, let me summarize:

- The illustrations on the first page of this thread are all from Turn 46 before execution.

- The first !HostLog file with the complete supply messages for Turn 46 corresponds for to these illustrations too

- The game turn you posted at the end of your AAR is in game turn 47, the turn after the illustrations and for which there are no complete supply messages.

- At the start of Turn 46 Buchanan's fleet has already been in place in the Chowan River for more than 1 turn--actually starting there at the beginning of Turn 46 should be enough.

- At the start of Turn 46 Tattnall's fleet is already in Albemarle Sound with enough strength to cause Edenton harbor to be blockaded.

- Regardless if this situation supply is arriving in Henderson, NC going directly to the Stockade/Lvl 2 Depot and to several stacks in the region.

--

The AGEWike--specific to the engine and not just AACW/CW2(Supply - 9.1.3 Blocking Riverine and Naval Supply)--says: "For riverine supply distribution, which uses the riverine pool, distribution is blocked in water regions which have either an enemy naval unit, or are under the guns of a fort (with artilleries) or troops with positionned artillery (lvl 5+[SUP]1)[/SUP] entrenchments)."

It mentions nothing about a minimum number of "naval units[SUP]2)[/SUP]" being necessary to block supplies, nor if friendly "naval units" in the same water region influences this, nor if friendly artillery able to bombard into a water region with enemy "naval units" influence those enemy "naval units'" ability to block supplies.

[INDENT]When blockading a harbor exit-point having friendly artillery able to bombard into that exit-point will increase the number of enemy naval combat elements necessary to blockade that exit-point.

Conversely, enemy artillery able to bombard into an exit-point will reduce the number of enemy naval combat elements necessary to blockade that exit-point.
[/INDENT]

Since nothing is mentioned about influences of enemy naval combat elements or friendly bombardment, I assume that they do not change the 1 naval combat element rule.

--

If my above assessments are correct, then on Turn 46 no supply should have been able to traverse:

Chowan River (enemy naval combat elements),
Albemarle Sound (enemy naval combat elements),
Greensville, VA (directly north of Henderson, NC with 100% CS MC[you need at least 25% MC for supply to traverse a region]),
Tyrell, NC (directly south of Currituck, NC with 100% CS MC),
Hyde, NC (directly south of Tyrell, NC with 100% CS MC),
Pamlico Sound (being under the guns of both Fort Clark and Fort Morgan) and
Pamlico Bay (being under the guns of Fort Morgan),

and I do not see how the supply got through.



[SUP]1)[/SUP] At one time it was required to be entrenched at level 5+ to bombard. The restriction has been lvl 3+ for CW2 from the beginning.

[SUP]2)[/SUP] I assume that at least 1 naval combat element is meant here.

[Mickey3D]

I would use the situation as described in post 30 (turn 47) but your summary is true.

The supply could move from Currituck (Edenton harbor) to Henderson through land movement but due to the Buchanan fleet this should have only a 10% chance to happen and it happened every turn so I don't think this is the explanation.

I see only one reason the supply could move up the river : the posture of the CSA fleet is not set to attack. I don't know if this is important ?

[pgr]

[ATTACH]30653[/ATTACH]
We know that supply is moving from Norfolk, to Suffolk, to Chowin over RR connections (The black line I suppose), and then crossing the river into Henderson. What is interesting is that the supplies don't have to go from Chowen, into the Chowen River, and then to Henderson. (It is the difference between the light blue line to Henderson and the dark blue line into the river).

So, let me summarize:
The AGEWike--specific to the engine and not just AACW/CW2(Supply - 9.1.3 Blocking Riverine and Naval Supply)--says: "For riverine supply distribution, which uses the riverine pool, distribution is blocked in water regions which have either an enemy naval unit, or are under the guns of a fort (with artilleries) or troops with positionned artillery (lvl 5+[SUP]1)[/SUP] entrenchments)."

Based on the information above, My humble opinion is that the supply is transiting from Chowan to Henderson. I don't think the rules for blocking riverine or sea supply apply because the supply is going over land.

(The overly at the top of my post indicates a direct land to land connection between the regions).

The presence of a fleet seems to have had no effect on the GS flow.

I bet the game hasn't coded for supplies going between land regions to be blocked by fleets.

Since you are running an experiment Micky, I have one more idea for you... Keep everything consent, and have the CSA take Chowan, and see if that blocks things.

[Mickey3D]

Since you are running an experiment Micky, I have one more idea for you... Keep everything consent, and have the CSA take Chowan, and see if that blocks things.

Here is the result :

Chowan in CSA control : supply not stopped.
Chowan in CSA control + Albermale Sound under blockade (CSA fleet in attack posture) : supply not stopped.
Chowan in CSA control + Albermal Sound under blockade + Chowan River occupied by Buchanan's fleet (no more possible to move accross Chowan River for the Union, CSA fleet in attack posture) : supply not stopped.

Supply flow is stopped only when Currituck (Edenton city) is under CSA control.

This seems to demonstrate that a fleet blocking the movement of an ennemy force (Buchanan's fleet in Chowan River) don't stop its supply !!!

[tripax]

Here is a guess, I haven't thought it all the way through, and maybe it has been discussed already, but maybe it will be helpful. In the winter, it takes fewer boats to block army movement across water than in other seasons - something to do with the weather. In this game it is late February and Buchanan's fleet is large enough to block army movement. However, maybe the code related to supply movement requires enough boats to block clear weather army movement. In that case, it would require Buchanan's fleet to have more like 12 or maybe 16 boats (not sure) to block supply, even if 8 (not sure) is all that is needed in this season to block the Chowan in that region.

[Mickey3D]

In the winter, it takes fewer boats to block army movement across water than in other seasons

I was not aware of this ???

But anyway my latest test happened through the automn, winter and beginning of spring and nothing change until Currituck was under CSA control

[Captain_Orso]

I'm fairly certain the supplies are being blocked, because in one turn during phase 1 of distribution supplies are being pulled to the corps stacks in Henderson, NC and the stockades in Henderson and Halifax, NC, and the next phase they are not, although the corps--or at least some of them--are still missing supplies.

One thing I just realized is that the blocking riverine supply transportation rule that I noted is taking specifically about "riverine transportation". If supplies are moving across the Chowan River from the Chowan to Henderson, it is not using riverine transportation; it is simply moving across the river the same as any land unit would. In that case the rule does not take affect.

I do not believe that naval combat units do not block supplies at all from crossing rivers unless it is a MAJOR bug.

--

BTW Mickey, using the .hst file you posted at the end of your AAR I've been running turns without making any moves, just to get the supply statistics.

The first thing I noted is that the .hst files is from Turn 46--Turn 46 being the turn to be executed. This is also the first turn in your first !HostLog file. Also, Lee's stack is in Henderson with Longstreet, I believe, in Garysburg in Passive Posture as if he'd just retreated to there from a lost battle.

So I think that the illustrations on the first page of the thread are from before Turn 46.

--

I have to do a lot of parsing and sorting of messages before I can feel to have a good overview if the turns I ran (46-50) and the movements of supplies. I'll get back when I have finished.

[Captain_Orso]

8<
In the winter, it takes fewer boats to block army movement across water than in other seasons - something to do with the weather.
8<

Do you have any evidence of this, or is it just a very wild guess?

[tripax]

Do you have any evidence of this, or is it just a very wild guess?

I have no evidence that this is what is happening in this case, although I don't mean for the guess to be so wild. I'm quite certain that the number of boats required to block army movement is less when, for instance, the Arkansas, Ohio, or Tennessee Rivers are shallow in the winter. I'm not sure if other weather/river conditions effect how many boats it takes to block the waterway, nor if saltwater bays/sounds are affected, nor how supply moves in these cases (for instance, I do not know if supply can move over a frozen river when boats cannot). I have little idea how supply moves in general and none at all in this specific case. I just wanted to bring this up, in case it plays a role here.

[Mickey3D]

I do not believe that naval combat units do not block supplies at all from crossing rivers unless it is a MAJOR bug.

Yes, my understanding has always been that naval combat units in a river have a % chance to block supply equal to the % chance to block ennemy movement. And I understand the comment of Pocus in post #20 as a validation. But my test seems to show the opposite.

BTW Mickey, using the .hst file you posted at the end of your AAR I've been running turns without making any moves, just to get the supply statistics.

The first thing I noted is that the .hst files is from Turn 46--Turn 46 being the turn to be executed. This is also the first turn in your first !HostLog file. Also, Lee's stack is in Henderson with Longstreet, I believe, in Garysburg in Passive Posture as if he'd just retreated to there from a lost battle.
So I think that the illustrations on the first page of the thread are from before Turn 46.

I can't remember for sure which turn is shown on the first page. If you use the file at the end of the AAR, Lee is in Henderson, Jackson and Polk in Garysburg in passive mode after last turn battle retreat and Albermale Sound is not under blockade (2 elements missing). So, before starting the test, I move Lee to Garrysburg and move a scouting squadron (2 elements) from Chowan River to Albermale Sound.

Edit : I think the turn number mentioned in the log file is one below the turn number in the game (i.e. Turn 46 in log file will correspond to turn 47 in the game).

Edit 2: I also stop the move of the Union 18th fleet heading to Albermale Sound or Chowan River.

I have to do a lot of parsing and sorting of messages before I can feel to have a good overview if the turns I ran (46-50) and the movements of supplies. I'll get back when I have finished.

Thanks a lot to take this time to investigate.

[Merlin]

This reminds me of my (always seemingly futile) attempts to take and hold West Virginia as the Confederates. I'd be very interested to hear what anyone has to say about this.

That almost never works unless you take Morgantown and keep the Federals from flipping the rails into Harper's Ferry. Supplying a force across the mountains is foolish, because winter will almost always cut you off on those long, weak roads. Even as the Union, I tend to clear my way down, build a depot in every town, and then improve the regions, advancing out no sooner than mid-'63.

[pgr]

Here is the result :

Chowan in CSA control : supply not stopped.
Chowan in CSA control + Albermale Sound under blockade (CSA fleet in attack posture) : supply not stopped.
Chowan in CSA control + Albermal Sound under blockade + Chowan River occupied by Buchanan's fleet (no more possible to move accross Chowan River for the Union, CSA fleet in attack posture) : supply not stopped.

Supply flow is stopped only when Currituck (Edenton city) is under CSA control.

This seems to demonstrate that a fleet blocking the movement of an enemy force (Buchanan's fleet in Chowan River) don't stop its supply !!!

I think this is the correct conclusion to make.

either supply can pass or it can't...

I understand this to mean that having units blocking a % of supplies is impossible. Either supplies are blocked from crossing a river by ships or they are not. (And it seems to be the case that they are not).

One thing I just realized is that the blocking riverine supply transportation rule that I noted is taking specifically about "riverine transportation". If supplies are moving across the Chowan River from the Chowan to Henderson, it is not using riverine transportation; it is simply moving across the river the same as any land unit would. In that case the rule does not take affect.

This is exactly right. The supply is not being governed by riverine supply transportation rules since it is passing over land. (This is the case to going to Henderson from both Chowan and Edenton).

Concerning Edenton, I bet the fleet in the Albermale Sound is irrelevant. Supply from Norfolk would come over land, and I don't think Edenton can receive naval supply. (The naval supply is a guess. My understanding is that Naval supply is direct from coastal port to coastal port. If you tool tip over Albermale Sound, it shows as "shallow water" rather than "coastal water" ... so I hope I'm correct in understanding that naval supply rules don't apply in that case.)

I do not believe that naval combat units do not block supplies at all from crossing rivers unless it is a MAJOR bug.

I think the results of all this seem to demonstrate that naval units are not blocking supplies from crossing rivers... and thus Micky and GF have discovered a significant bug. I wonder what Pocus's take would be.

[Mickey3D]

That almost never works unless you take Morgantown and keep the Federals from flipping the rails into Harper's Ferry. Supplying a force across the mountains is foolish, because winter will almost always cut you off on those long, weak roads.

+1

Personally I consider West Virginia to be lost for the CSA from the beginning except if the Union player don't fight for it.

[Mickey3D]

Concerning Edenton, I bet the fleet in the Albermale Sound is irrelevant. Supply from Norfolk would come over land, and I don't think Edenton can receive naval supply. (The naval supply is a guess. My understanding is that Naval supply is direct from coastal port to coastal port. If you tool tip over Albermale Sound, it shows as "shallow water" rather than "coastal water" ... so I hope I'm correct in understanding that naval supply rules don't apply in that case.)

In any case, Edenton harbor is under blockade so no naval supply is possible, only land supply from Norfolk and/or Suffolk.

[Captain_Orso]

Mickey, I've run the save that you provided twice from turn 46 up to turn 50 and 51.

During the turn 46 in the first 2 distribution phases I see lots of supplies going to the corps in Henderson and to Henderson itself and also Halifax, where Rosecrans is with a stockade.

Starting with the turn 46 3rd distribution phase I can see no supplies going to any of the corps nor Henderson nor Halifax, but I know that it is, because:
1. Grant's corps goes to 100% GS on turn 47 or 48. It can carry 481 GS and uses 131 per turn.
2. Because J. Mansfield' Force--which started out with 100% GS--was using its supplies up, but not taking any on, I put it inside the stockade, and low-and-behold, although there are no reports of supplies moving into Henderson, Manfield's Force started taking on supplies.

I started to think at one point that J. Warden's Fleet in Edenton harbor with a number of oceanic and riverine transports--which were constantly taking on supplies directly from Norfolk and Suffolk--was transferring their supplies to the corps in Henderson, but without reporting it. (Transports in a water region adjacent to a land region with a stack with supply units can take on supplies from those adjacent transports) Per the game rules Henderson and Currituck are adjacent to each other, because you can move directly from one into the other. So theoretically the game engine might think the transports in Edenton harbor had the same status as if they were in a river region adjacent to Henderson, and supply the stacks with supply unit in Henderson and thereby circumventing the blocking fleet in the Chowan River.

So I started over and in the first turn I moved the 2 riverine transports to the gunboat fleet in the upper Roanoke which was without transports, and sailed the rest of the fleet--except the ironclad and 2 gunboat sqaudrons, which I left in the harbor--up to Baltimore, so that there would be no way for them to transfer any supplies to the corps in Henderson, other than during the first turn.

One think I did see from that was that Currituck was using far fewer supplies and started sending some back to Norfolk and Suffolk and Keyes' corps in Suffolk and Franklin force in Chowan without J. Warden's Fleet in Currituck.

One very odd thing I noted was that after several turns the gunboat fleet in the lower Roanoke--which has 2 transports--actually gained on supplies, although it was in the river the entire time and there was no report of it getting supplies as there were with J. Warden's Fleet while it was in Edenton harbor.

I'm totally stymied from trying to figure out the entire situation. From turn 47 onwards there was not a single report of any supplies being moved into Henderson--neither into the region (stockade and level 2 depot) nor to any of the corps stacks. Yet all of the corps in Henderson went to 100% GS or near to it and remained there the rest of the time, although from the supply distribution reports, they should have been starving.

The only thing left which I might be able to do would be to assess what the starting supplies are for each nearby location, calculate in the reports of supplies being moved into and out-of each location, the end supply stand and calculate the difference between start, end and reported movements. But any discovered differences would still not explain to where the supplies went and how.


BTW from the game status which you provided, Edenton harbor was NOT blockaded. There were only 10 brigs in Ablemarle Sound and 12 would have been needed to blockade Edenton. Regardless, I do not believe that Edenton is a coastal harbor, and it got enough supplies from Norfolk and Suffolk anyway.

[Mickey3D]

Thanks a lot Captain Orso for your investigation and the time you spent on it , I think it is now to the developper to have a look.

[...]
1. Grant's corps goes to 100% GS on turn 47 or 48. It can carry 481 GS and uses 131 per turn.
2. Because J. Mansfield' Force--which started out with 100% GS--was using its supplies up, but not taking any on
[...]

If they consume their own supply (without receiving other supply), we should see their supply level diminish, it was not the case in my tests.

I put it inside the stockade, and low-and-behold, although there are no reports of supplies moving into Henderson, Manfield's Force started taking on supplies.

It seems the log is, to say the less, weak.

[...] in the first turn I moved the 2 riverine transports to the gunboat fleet in the upper Roanoke [...] the gunboat fleet in the lower Roanoke--which has 2 transports--actually gained on supplies [...]

Could it be that they receive directly naval supply or supply from Edenton (if not under blockade) but supply movement related to a fleet outside of an harbor is not mentioned in the log ?

BTW from the game status which you provided, Edenton harbor was NOT blockaded

As written in a previous post I first moved a scouting squadron from the Chowan River to Albermale Sound to have Edenton harbor under blockade and then I started my test.

[Captain_Orso]

When you really get down to the nitty-gritty there are some really basic things that I have no idea of. In general during play nobody would care a rat's ass about exactly when supplies get delivered to the units; just as long as you have enough understanding to use it right. Do the non-supply elements of your corps stack--if it has supply elements--take only supply from its own supply elements? Are those filled from a local depot/town first or the inf/cav/art first and the rest to the sup? Does this happen once per turn, once per distribution phase, more than once per distribution phase?

Thanks a lot Captain Orso for your investigation and the time you spent on it , I think it is now to the developper to have a look.

I'd surely love to have a clear and concise statement on how supply is or can be blocked from crossing rivers and from using the riverine transportation pool oke:

It seems the log is, to say the less, weak.

Since we see distribution messages about the stockade/depot in Henderson receiving supplies during the first 2 distribution phases of turn 46, I would kind of assume that it would always work. The same goes for Howard's Grant's and Kearney's corps.

If they consume their own supply (without receiving other supply), we should see their supply level diminish, it was not the case in my tests.

Exactly, so either there are messages being dropped or forgotten or supplies are arriving to Henderson through some other method which in general is not recorded through supply debugging.

Could it be that they receive directly naval supply or supply from Edenton (if not under blockade) but supply movement related to a fleet outside of an harbor is not mentioned in the log ?

I can send the Tattnall fleet off and check if Edenton starts receiving Naval Supply, but I doubt it.

As written in a previous post I first moved a scouting squadron from the Chowan River to Albermale Sound to have Edenton harbor under blockade and then I started my test.

Okay, I misunderstood that; sorry

--

Now that I can break out the supply messages from a turn's HostLog file into descriptive file_names within seconds it seems that there's no need for it anymore

[Mickey3D]

I'd surely love to have a clear and concise statement on how supply is or can be blocked from crossing rivers and from using the riverine transportation pool

Same for me : I was thinking I more or less understood the way supply distribution is working (at least enough to take advantage of it in my plans) but now everything is blurred.

Time to call Pocus. If you call him three times in a row he should appear : Pocus, Pocus, Pocus ! ompom:

[ohms_law]

Maybe it's gotta be three people?
Pocus. ?


Anyway, yea, I'd like to know what's going on here as well.

[pgr]

One could always send a PM with a link