So, a disclaimer is in order here: the Battle Engine (BE) is designed to return reasonable results, not to model actual battles. It gives pretty realistic and reasonable results without input or deep understanding by players, [color="#FF0000"]so by design, there is not much that can be gained in day-to-day play by knowing how resolution is determined[/color]. If it was important to playing the game it would not occur behind the curtain.
Still, for those who might be interested in this sort of thing, here is the result of my research into the BE that was inspired by the question of how to organize divisions, although how to apply this to that subject is left to others.
Further disclaimer: This description of the BE is based on information obtained from the files accessible in the CW2 folder, from the AGEWiki, the AACWikiand Narwhal’s AJE posts. Some of the information is either out-of-date or written for other games, but these were the best sources I could find. Additional sources would be greatly appreciated, as would corrections or more accurate interpretations, as some of the source material is confusing or contradictory.
This is largely a re-write of the available sources in an attempt to make the material less confusing and more accessible to others, and is a work-in-progress that no doubt contains erroneous information. I have glossed over many of the actual calculations in order to preserve reader sanity and to make understanding of resolution more intuitive rather than numbers based. I have[color="#FFD700"] highlighted in yellow[/color] areas where I have extrapolated and which are not specifically confirmed by sources (there may be others, these are the ones I know about).
Before the battle:
Ignoring the question of which stacks decide to participate, which is a separate issue, the first thing that happens is a roll by the defenders to avoid combat altogether. Green posture, high Evade value, Strategic rating and Evade Combat special order increase this chance. [color="#FFD700"]These factors are compared to Patrol value to determine whether a stack gets away or has to fight.[/color] Two forces in offensive posture will almost always fight. To force combat, try to have a high Patrol value and use offensive or assault posture.
First round:
Frontage is filled element by element. Choosing is weighted by element size in hits, so infantry is more likely to be chosen than Militia or Light Infantry. Combat elements use separate frontage than Support elements (artillery, Supply, HQ, etc.). At most one supply element will be chosen for Support frontage. Once the frontages are filled, remaining elements sit idle until the next round. Chosen elements will be referred to in the rest of this post as “engaged.”
Next, order of action is determined: engaging units are ordered randomly from among all available, weighted by initiative. (High initiative makes it more likely for the element to act ahead of other units.)
Target units are randomly chosen, weighted by the total number of hits [color="#FFD700"]engaging in the round[/color]. Divisions are units. [color="#FFD700"]Because the number of elements in a unit that engages varies from round to round, the size of the unit for targeting purposes will also vary round to round.[/color] Each element then randomly selects an element from within the target unit to fire upon.
The two opposing forces begin battle at the longest range available. (If one side’s longest is range 7 and the other is range 6, combat begins at range 7 and one side does not fire in that phase.) Every element with this range attempts a ranged attack roll at a hit percentage determined by their Firepower stat and modified by almost everything conceivable, but the most important (i.e. easily influenced by player decisions) are leader stats, posture and CP penalties. Minimum chance to hit = 7%. A complete list of modifiers is located here. (Important note, leader modifiers are based on the value over or under the opponent’s leader bonus. The minimum is no bonus: if the opponent has better quality leadership you are not at a malus to hit, but they ARE at a bonus to hit you.) The global fire coefficient for CW2 is 1.25, so to give a rough estimate of the unmodified chance to hit, multiply the relevant Firepower number by 1.25.
Elements within the target unit are chosen randomly to receive fire (within some constraints). Elements not engaged (not in the frontage) can be targeted as long as some other elements of that unit ARE engaged. Once an element takes hits twice, other elements in the unit are targeted instead; once all elements have been hit twice, any element can again be targeted.
After hits are applied, the range decreases by one and another fire phase takes place at that range. Elements firing for the first time use their full ROF (modified downward by Command Penalties or as a result of taking damage, minimum one). At closer ranges they fire once per phase no matter their ROF.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
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- Location: Austin, TX, USA
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Continued:
When range closes to zero an Assault phase occurs. Engaged combat elements on the attacking (posture) side make a modified Discipline check to see if they assault (low discipline or damaged elements are less likely to make a bayonet charge). If they pass, they make an assault to-hit roll against an element in the opposing unit (the same unit they have targeted all round). This roll is modified by most of the same factors as ranged hit rolls, but is based on their offensive Assault characteristic. The element targeted is chosen from within the target unit in the same way as Ranged combat. If a defending unit is the target of an Assault roll (successful or not) they automatically make a to-hit roll based on their modified Assault characteristics (no initial quality check needed). Untargeted defenders do not participate in Assault phase as there is no one Assaulting them to defend against. Artillery will not Assault as attackers, [color="#FFD700"]but will defend themselves if Assaulted by an enemy element[/color]. The Assault coefficient for CW2 is .4. To get a general estimate of the unmodified Assault hit chance for a given element: (Discipline)*(Assault)/2 and revise down a little bit.
When an element takes damage in any phase it must make a modified Cohesion check to see if it routs. If so, it no longer makes to-hit rolls, [color="#FFD700"]but is subject to enemy fire and assault for the remainder of the round[/color].
Second and subsequent rounds (hours):
Frontage is re-filled. Elements that engaged the previous turn are more likely to be chosen, elements that were damaged are less likely to be chosen, and elements that routed are even less likely to be chosen. In this way “fresh” elements rotate into the battle. This is also the mechanism by which some units appear to have sat out the fight as reported in the battle-results screen, while others are involved in heavy fighting. Once it misses a round of combat, an element is less likely to be chosen in subsequent rounds, especially if it did not come under fire.
Targets are re-selected. This round and subsequent rounds, a unit that has received fire from an enemy unit is more likely to target that unit. Through this mechanism, opposing divisions tend to “face-off” with one another over the course of a battle.
A new initiative order is established and all elements who received damage the previous round make a modified Discipline check to determine if they are “shaken.” Shaken elements lose one ROF and one Discipline for that round.
Range begins at 1, at which all units can use their available ROF. Range then decrements to 0, an Assault phase takes place, and the round ends. As many as six rounds can occur in one day.
At the beginning of each round the overall commander determines whether he should attempt a withdrawal, and makes a roll to do so. If he tries and fails, he will change to Passive posture and incur combat penalties. Successfully withdrawing stacks are subject to pursuit by enemy cavalry.
If enough elements have routed, or a sufficiently high proportion of hits have been taken, the entire force will automatically rout at the beginning of the next round. No withdrawal roll occurs in this case: a disorganized Rout of the entire force is automatic and Pursuit damage is multiplied by 2.5 times what it would have been under a successful Withdrawal.
When range closes to zero an Assault phase occurs. Engaged combat elements on the attacking (posture) side make a modified Discipline check to see if they assault (low discipline or damaged elements are less likely to make a bayonet charge). If they pass, they make an assault to-hit roll against an element in the opposing unit (the same unit they have targeted all round). This roll is modified by most of the same factors as ranged hit rolls, but is based on their offensive Assault characteristic. The element targeted is chosen from within the target unit in the same way as Ranged combat. If a defending unit is the target of an Assault roll (successful or not) they automatically make a to-hit roll based on their modified Assault characteristics (no initial quality check needed). Untargeted defenders do not participate in Assault phase as there is no one Assaulting them to defend against. Artillery will not Assault as attackers, [color="#FFD700"]but will defend themselves if Assaulted by an enemy element[/color]. The Assault coefficient for CW2 is .4. To get a general estimate of the unmodified Assault hit chance for a given element: (Discipline)*(Assault)/2 and revise down a little bit.
When an element takes damage in any phase it must make a modified Cohesion check to see if it routs. If so, it no longer makes to-hit rolls, [color="#FFD700"]but is subject to enemy fire and assault for the remainder of the round[/color].
Second and subsequent rounds (hours):
Frontage is re-filled. Elements that engaged the previous turn are more likely to be chosen, elements that were damaged are less likely to be chosen, and elements that routed are even less likely to be chosen. In this way “fresh” elements rotate into the battle. This is also the mechanism by which some units appear to have sat out the fight as reported in the battle-results screen, while others are involved in heavy fighting. Once it misses a round of combat, an element is less likely to be chosen in subsequent rounds, especially if it did not come under fire.
Targets are re-selected. This round and subsequent rounds, a unit that has received fire from an enemy unit is more likely to target that unit. Through this mechanism, opposing divisions tend to “face-off” with one another over the course of a battle.
A new initiative order is established and all elements who received damage the previous round make a modified Discipline check to determine if they are “shaken.” Shaken elements lose one ROF and one Discipline for that round.
Range begins at 1, at which all units can use their available ROF. Range then decrements to 0, an Assault phase takes place, and the round ends. As many as six rounds can occur in one day.
At the beginning of each round the overall commander determines whether he should attempt a withdrawal, and makes a roll to do so. If he tries and fails, he will change to Passive posture and incur combat penalties. Successfully withdrawing stacks are subject to pursuit by enemy cavalry.
If enough elements have routed, or a sufficiently high proportion of hits have been taken, the entire force will automatically rout at the beginning of the next round. No withdrawal roll occurs in this case: a disorganized Rout of the entire force is automatic and Pursuit damage is multiplied by 2.5 times what it would have been under a successful Withdrawal.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
Very impressive, sir. Our Most Gracious Queen would've knighted you on the spot for this sterling contribution.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
- Posts: 1778
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
Would you clarify or break out what ROF is, or stands for, please? Lost me there, couldn't find the apposite for it.
- Rate of Fire, maybe?
And you might want to make this crystal clear: (Discipline)*(Assault)/2 - do you mean
[(D)*(A)] / 2 or
(D) * [(A)/2)] ?
- Rate of Fire, maybe?
And you might want to make this crystal clear: (Discipline)*(Assault)/2 - do you mean
[(D)*(A)] / 2 or
(D) * [(A)/2)] ?
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
GraniteStater wrote:Would you clarify or break out what ROF is, or stands for, please? Lost me there, couldn't find the apposite for it.
- Rate of Fire, maybe?
And you might want to make this crystal clear: (Discipline)*(Assault)/2 - do you mean
[(D)*(A)] / 2 or
(D) * [(A)/2)] ?
The two equations give the same result. Try some numbers to see for yourself. This is known as the associative property of multiplication/division.
Great info. I updated one of my earlier posts .
Here is the link for pursuit:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Pursuit
tripax, all stacks in a region get attacked under the highest defending leader's stats.The number of elements in combat per round depends on the frontage of course. A stack that MTG would arrive on a later day and join battle with range 1 and then range 0.
Here is the link for pursuit:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Pursuit
tripax, all stacks in a region get attacked under the highest defending leader's stats.The number of elements in combat per round depends on the frontage of course. A stack that MTG would arrive on a later day and join battle with range 1 and then range 0.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
penlin wrote:The two equations give the same result. Try some numbers to see for yourself. This is known as the associative property of multiplication/division.
No. I try not to say this too often, but you're wrong, demonstrably so.
You might have assumed that people here would be highly likely to know about such properties.
And I minored in math.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
ArmChairGeneral wrote:One area I am unsure of is whether re-Targeting occurs at each phase, or at each round as I have written.
-ACG
"There is a saturation limit for both land and naval : once an element has been attacked twice, it is not considered as a potential target anymore until everyone has been hit twice."
That line may be pertinent. So once any element is hit twice, every other element must be hit twice before a random element is hit three times, and so on.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
- Posts: 1778
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
Gray Fox wrote:I think that this one statement was just meant to be a broad generalization based on the calculated result of the actual formula for an assault hit chance.
I see your point.
In that case, the gentleman should've have been a tad clearer in the construction. He asserted explicitly that the two expressions (they're not equations) are algebraically equivalent.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
So what does this new info really mean?
Long range elements really only get the effect of long ranged fire on day one. All subsequent days ranged fire starts at range 1 and then goes to assault range 0.
A unit that arrived on day 2 or any later day (MTG), would only undergo one round of fire before doing an assault. So a cavalry division with a good commander assaulting weakened units on day 2+ seems viable.
The effect of your great leaders can be totally negated by the effect of great enemy leaders.
Long range elements really only get the effect of long ranged fire on day one. All subsequent days ranged fire starts at range 1 and then goes to assault range 0.
A unit that arrived on day 2 or any later day (MTG), would only undergo one round of fire before doing an assault. So a cavalry division with a good commander assaulting weakened units on day 2+ seems viable.
The effect of your great leaders can be totally negated by the effect of great enemy leaders.
GraniteStater wrote:No. I try not to say this too often, but you're wrong, demonstrably so.
You might have assumed that people here would be highly likely to know about such properties.
And I minored in math.
Hate to be a troll but yikes... Care to 'demonstrate' which real numbers cause the associative property to break down here?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm hoping whatever you majored in stuck a bit better than your minor
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
- Posts: 1778
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
13thnct wrote:Hate to be a troll but yikes... Care to 'demonstrate' which real numbers cause the associative property to break down here?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm hoping whatever you majored in stuck a bit better than your minor
Look, rendering mathematical expressions by this text is a bit challenging sometimes - maybe you're misreading. So here it is:
The product of A and B, which is then divided by another number other than one, is not equal to the product of A and a ratio involving B and the number already employed.
I haven't had to solve a 'diffy kyooh' in decades and rarely use any calculus at all, other than to tutor someone, but, I tell you what: PM me and show me, how the ancient Greeks, without the benefit of Arabic notation, or any device of convenience that third graders are used to, knew, for a fact, that the square root of two is not a rational number.
It's called reasoning, step by step, just cold hard disinterested and unemotional ratiocination. They knew this, beyond the palest bounds of any possible reservation. Demonstrate to me (you can use modern conveniences of notation if so desired,) that it cannot be true that a ratio of integers, any such ratio, when squared, can equal two. I just gave a big hint.
I can PM you and show this - it's not something that leaps of the wax tablet, because they were severely handicapped by their notation. It's understanding what a rational number is.
Next, someone will insist that 22/7 equals pi...
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
GraniteStater wrote:The product of A and B, which is then divided by another number other than one, is not equal to the product of A and a ratio involving B and the number already employed.
Interesting... I suspect a mathematical strawman argument is being made in this sentence, but I'm no mathematician so I'll leave the proofs to you (I'm an engineer by training)
With that said, I assure you that [(D)*(A)] / 2 = (D) * [(A)/2)] is true all day long (even on Mondays!
)Don't believe me? Just go to our good friends at wolframalpha(dot)com and type in the equation above (Sorry, I can't post a link to type it in for you).
P.S. On the outside chance you'd like to fall back on the argument of blah blah blah I was talking about expressions not equations blah blah blah, I'll bet dollars to donuts AGEOD has it coded as an equation (along with some requisite conditional logic)...
Are you seriously trying to tell me that (A x B)/2 is not equivalent to A x (B/2)? Where "x" stands for multiplication and "/" stands for division? I don't know about ratiocination or wax tablets and struggled through 1st semester calculus, but this is just plain old arithmetic. I just crunched a few numbers, not that I had to, and they give the same result.
13thnct wrote:Hate to be a troll but yikes... Care to 'demonstrate' which real numbers cause the associative property to break down here?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm hoping whatever you majored in stuck a bit better than your minor
Hmm:
(7*4)/2 = (28)/2 = 14
7*(4/2) = 7*(2) = 14
So far I'm on 13thnct's side here, what am I missing?
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
As soon as I started to type (ab)/c, I saw I had (a) confused myself originally, and (b) was wrong.
My apologies to all, humble apologies. I was probably reading ACG's expression much too fast.
Then went into a tailspin.
Determining why sqrt 2 cannot be rational, though, is nice exercise. I brought it up because one day I was reminded that the Greeks did know this and remembered their clumsy notation. So I walked through it myself.
Yes, (ab)/c = a(b/c).
Sorry 'bout that, all.
My apologies to all, humble apologies. I was probably reading ACG's expression much too fast.
Then went into a tailspin.
Determining why sqrt 2 cannot be rational, though, is nice exercise. I brought it up because one day I was reminded that the Greeks did know this and remembered their clumsy notation. So I walked through it myself.
Yes, (ab)/c = a(b/c).
Sorry 'bout that, all.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
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planefinder
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:34 pm
Getting back on topic, I think we were talking about range. So folks don't have to go digging through the models files more than once, here are the typical model (element) ranges for various element types going from longest range to shortest:
Coastal Arty: 9
Siege Arty: 8
Fort Batteries: 7
Rodman Arty: 7-8 (2 different elements)
Columbiad Arty: 7
20lb Parrott: 7
10lb Parrott: 6
12lb Arty: 5
6lb Arty: 5
H Arty: 5
Sharpshooters: 4
Elite Infantry: 4
Light Infantry, Cavalry, Conscript and Regular Infantry: 3
These are all pulled from the common models in the CWII Gamedata directory. I would note (for modders) that this appears to be a deviation from AACW in that both CSA and USA pull from the same common models, but it looks like the way they are set up is that if a nation specific model invokes a common model, it can specify certain model attributes that deviate from the common model. I may be wrong though. If that is the case though, please assume the characteristics above are likely accurate, as I have no opened each and every distinct USA and CSA model to verify.
Perhaps something for Pocus to comment on. Actually, now that BRS is done along with 1.03, he may be able to provide us with the mod DBs so we can edit again.
Coastal Arty: 9
Siege Arty: 8
Fort Batteries: 7
Rodman Arty: 7-8 (2 different elements)
Columbiad Arty: 7
20lb Parrott: 7
10lb Parrott: 6
12lb Arty: 5
6lb Arty: 5
H Arty: 5
Sharpshooters: 4
Elite Infantry: 4
Light Infantry, Cavalry, Conscript and Regular Infantry: 3
These are all pulled from the common models in the CWII Gamedata directory. I would note (for modders) that this appears to be a deviation from AACW in that both CSA and USA pull from the same common models, but it looks like the way they are set up is that if a nation specific model invokes a common model, it can specify certain model attributes that deviate from the common model. I may be wrong though. If that is the case though, please assume the characteristics above are likely accurate, as I have no opened each and every distinct USA and CSA model to verify.
Perhaps something for Pocus to comment on. Actually, now that BRS is done along with 1.03, he may be able to provide us with the mod DBs so we can edit again.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Whew, go to work for a few hours and a thread can blow up on ya!
GS,
ROF is Rate of Fire. You get all of your ROF (modified by combat events like Shaken) at the longest range. Then one shot per fire phase until the end of the round. (Only one Assault roll no matter what.) Then on the next round, which begins at Range 1 you get to use all your available ROF again.
The two estimate formulas basically stripped out all of the situational modifiers so that you could quickly compare two elements' stats in the element window and get a rough comparison of how well they will perform in combat. Each of the formulas has a global modifier that varies between games, and since this is constant for all CW2 battles I included them in the estimate formula. In some games the base hit chance is Firepower times 2. In the AGEWiki they use the global modifiers from a different game (ROP I think). The CW2 modifiers are 1.25 for fire combat and .4 for Assault combat, defined in the GameLogic file (assuming I decoded it correctly). For assault I multiplied by .5 (same as dividing by 2) instead of by .4 just so you didn't have to reach for a calculator. 1.25 doesn't lend itself to an easy shortcut though. I guess just add a quarter to the stated number: 12 Firepower translates to an unmodified 15% chance to hit.
Also, there is another .8 TQ modifier for Assault hit-chance that I did not understand the application of, so I left it out of the rule-of-thumb. Since it would apply to everyone I figured you could still get a good idea of how well an element will assault compared to other elements without considering the .8. If it means that you use 80% of Discipline to multiply by Assault stat, then a better rule would be (Assault*Discipline)/3. (.8 * .4 ~= one third).
Most important observations: artillery has a very good chance to hit compared to most combat elements, and discipline is the most important stat for assault combat.
GS,
ROF is Rate of Fire. You get all of your ROF (modified by combat events like Shaken) at the longest range. Then one shot per fire phase until the end of the round. (Only one Assault roll no matter what.) Then on the next round, which begins at Range 1 you get to use all your available ROF again.
The two estimate formulas basically stripped out all of the situational modifiers so that you could quickly compare two elements' stats in the element window and get a rough comparison of how well they will perform in combat. Each of the formulas has a global modifier that varies between games, and since this is constant for all CW2 battles I included them in the estimate formula. In some games the base hit chance is Firepower times 2. In the AGEWiki they use the global modifiers from a different game (ROP I think). The CW2 modifiers are 1.25 for fire combat and .4 for Assault combat, defined in the GameLogic file (assuming I decoded it correctly). For assault I multiplied by .5 (same as dividing by 2) instead of by .4 just so you didn't have to reach for a calculator. 1.25 doesn't lend itself to an easy shortcut though. I guess just add a quarter to the stated number: 12 Firepower translates to an unmodified 15% chance to hit.
Also, there is another .8 TQ modifier for Assault hit-chance that I did not understand the application of, so I left it out of the rule-of-thumb. Since it would apply to everyone I figured you could still get a good idea of how well an element will assault compared to other elements without considering the .8. If it means that you use 80% of Discipline to multiply by Assault stat, then a better rule would be (Assault*Discipline)/3. (.8 * .4 ~= one third).
Most important observations: artillery has a very good chance to hit compared to most combat elements, and discipline is the most important stat for assault combat.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Gray Fox,
Yup that is the line I went off of too.
To clarify: there are two kinds of targeting, the one where units pick units, which is done at the beginning of each round (??), and the selection of which element (referred to in the Game Files as SU's for sub-units) within the targeted unit to apply the hits to. The in-unit selection is random (no weighting) but smooths out hits so that one element doesn't randomly take all the fire from an opposing unit (division) and get destroyed quickly. This effect is one of the reasons elements are so danged hard to destroy!
There is a sub-rule to the first SU selection: cav elements in the division only get picked as targets if there are no infantry or artillery available to fire on. So integrated cav survive combat better than ones in a Cav-only division; I have mentioned before that Cav divisions seem to take a lot of hits in Corps-sized battles, and this explains why. If the division is targeted there are no infantry or artillery to draw fire away from the horsies. It also implies that the first hit a cav division takes will go to the Horse Artillery.
I think but am not completely sure that UNIT target selection is done per round, so once a unit targets another unit, all of its elements will target SUs of the selected unit randomly (but smoothed out) out for the rest of the round. So in one sense targets are "re-selected" each phase, since the unit you hit last phase may not be eligible yet to take more hits and the hits go to a different element within the target unit (division). After the first shot, elements will want to target elements that fired on them, so elements within division also face-off with each other.
I am pretty sure I understand the sub-unit distribution part, but what I am not clear on is whether units select a new target-unit each phase, or whether the target unit is the same for the entire round. I THINK it is the same for the whole round, but am not completely sure. If they re-targeted every phase I would think the "face-off" phenomenon would be even more pronounced, and that every enemy unit would want to close with your stack artillery that fired at them in the previous phase. Since this isn't happening (artillery rarely take damage) it leads me to think that unit targeting is happening per round, so that even though a singleton artillery has fired at them several times the division has taken many hits from other units and so would rather target them on the next round instead of the artillery. Otherwise one long range hit would draw a whole division toward a loose artillery piece on the next fire phase, which doesn't appear to be happening based on how few hits artillery usually take.
I am no expert on MTSG (or pursuit, or multiple-stack-participation) which is why I mostly left them out. That being said, I think it is possible for MTSGers to enter on the first round if they make their roll getting the full range benefits of the rifled guns. If it fails the first round, it will still attempt to MTSG on subsequent rounds, and if successful would then enter at Range 1. Need to read up on this though. Also, based on my thin understanding of the mechanism, if the MTSGers are in the same region, they are almost guaranteed to enter in support every round.
Also, you said,
They do? Where did you find this? I thought that stacks maintained their integrity during battle and derived bonuses and penalties from the leader of the stack. I do not know the answer, that is just what I thought, and do not have source confirmation. Also, the rule might be different for MTSG, which, again, is a subject I am poorly informed on.
"There is a saturation limit for both land and naval : once an element has been attacked twice, it is not considered as a potential target anymore until everyone has been hit twice."
Yup that is the line I went off of too.
To clarify: there are two kinds of targeting, the one where units pick units, which is done at the beginning of each round (??), and the selection of which element (referred to in the Game Files as SU's for sub-units) within the targeted unit to apply the hits to. The in-unit selection is random (no weighting) but smooths out hits so that one element doesn't randomly take all the fire from an opposing unit (division) and get destroyed quickly. This effect is one of the reasons elements are so danged hard to destroy!
There is a sub-rule to the first SU selection: cav elements in the division only get picked as targets if there are no infantry or artillery available to fire on. So integrated cav survive combat better than ones in a Cav-only division; I have mentioned before that Cav divisions seem to take a lot of hits in Corps-sized battles, and this explains why. If the division is targeted there are no infantry or artillery to draw fire away from the horsies. It also implies that the first hit a cav division takes will go to the Horse Artillery.
I think but am not completely sure that UNIT target selection is done per round, so once a unit targets another unit, all of its elements will target SUs of the selected unit randomly (but smoothed out) out for the rest of the round. So in one sense targets are "re-selected" each phase, since the unit you hit last phase may not be eligible yet to take more hits and the hits go to a different element within the target unit (division). After the first shot, elements will want to target elements that fired on them, so elements within division also face-off with each other.
I am pretty sure I understand the sub-unit distribution part, but what I am not clear on is whether units select a new target-unit each phase, or whether the target unit is the same for the entire round. I THINK it is the same for the whole round, but am not completely sure. If they re-targeted every phase I would think the "face-off" phenomenon would be even more pronounced, and that every enemy unit would want to close with your stack artillery that fired at them in the previous phase. Since this isn't happening (artillery rarely take damage) it leads me to think that unit targeting is happening per round, so that even though a singleton artillery has fired at them several times the division has taken many hits from other units and so would rather target them on the next round instead of the artillery. Otherwise one long range hit would draw a whole division toward a loose artillery piece on the next fire phase, which doesn't appear to be happening based on how few hits artillery usually take.
I am no expert on MTSG (or pursuit, or multiple-stack-participation) which is why I mostly left them out. That being said, I think it is possible for MTSGers to enter on the first round if they make their roll getting the full range benefits of the rifled guns. If it fails the first round, it will still attempt to MTSG on subsequent rounds, and if successful would then enter at Range 1. Need to read up on this though. Also, based on my thin understanding of the mechanism, if the MTSGers are in the same region, they are almost guaranteed to enter in support every round.
Also, you said,
all stacks in a region get attacked under the highest defending leader's stats
They do? Where did you find this? I thought that stacks maintained their integrity during battle and derived bonuses and penalties from the leader of the stack. I do not know the answer, that is just what I thought, and do not have source confirmation. Also, the rule might be different for MTSG, which, again, is a subject I am poorly informed on.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
pgr,
Unfortunatley the source material is vague on Pursuit. Here is a link, but a lot of it doesn't apply. I am not even sure CW2 cav have the *screener* attribute, and that would imply that they can't prevent pursuit damage at all, which doesn't sound right. Murkiness abounds. Maybe you can make more sense of it.
Unfortunatley the source material is vague on Pursuit. Here is a link, but a lot of it doesn't apply. I am not even sure CW2 cav have the *screener* attribute, and that would imply that they can't prevent pursuit damage at all, which doesn't sound right. Murkiness abounds. Maybe you can make more sense of it.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
planefinder wrote:
These are all pulled from the common models in the CWII Gamedata directory. I would note (for modders) that this appears to be a deviation from AACW in that both CSA and USA pull from the same common models, but it looks like the way they are set up is that if a nation specific model invokes a common model, it can specify certain model attributes that deviate from the common model. I may be wrong though. If that is the case though, please assume the characteristics above are likely accurate, as I have no opened each and every distinct USA and CSA model to verify.
This is my understanding as well, and that one of the reasons it was implemented this way is to allow captured artillery and wagons to access your replacement pool.
Hopefully Pocus won't be annoyed with all of us monkeys climbing around under the hood of his shiny new car! I would also hate to think that new players might get the impression that you need to understand any of this stuff to be able to learn how to play well (which you don't!). This is more of an exercise in compulsive curiosity.
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planefinder
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:34 pm
ArmChairGeneral wrote:This is my understanding as well, and that one of the reasons it was implemented this way is to allow captured artillery and wagons to access your replacement pool.
Hopefully Pocus won't be annoyed with all of us monkeys climbing around under the hood of his shiny new car! I would also hate to think that new players might get the impression that you need to understand any of this stuff to be able to learn how to play well (which you don't!). This is more of an exercise in compulsive curiosity.
That makes sense. I forgot about that. I agree about the curiosity. I think the only important takeaway from my post is what other have mentioned in the threads about stack composition - stacks with higher-ranged units outside divisions will be able to engage at longer ranges, potentially without the enemy returning fire. Incorporating a 20lb parrott, Columbiad or Rodman Arty into a stack allows you to do extra damage essentially for free, unless your opponent does likewise.
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fred zeppelin
- Colonel
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:29 pm
ArmChairGeneral wrote:
There is a sub-rule to the first SU selection: cav elements in the division only get picked as targets if there are no infantry or artillery available to fire on. So integrated cav survive combat better than ones in a Cav-only division;
This also means that the infantry in a division with artillery gets more hits per unit then a division with only infantry because the same damage is distributed over fewer units.
Wasn't it GrayFox who mentioned having a few heavy infantry divisions in a corps because these divisions don't buckly under pressure? Now we know why.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
fred,
No problem, hope it didn't just muddy the waters further!
minipol,
I'm not sure of that exactly. According to the AGEWiki, infantry and artillery are targeted equally, it is cav and other support elements that take a back seat, so the hits would be distributed to the artillery too.
Still, artillery hits are expensive and infantry hits are cheap, so you would still stand to gain with more infantry and less artillery (strictly for divisions in an A/C stack of course). Same conclusion, just a different reason.
In Assault phase, if you are the attacker, you artillery will not Assault, and so you would also be much better off with more infantry or cav and less artillery. (Artillery may not defend in Assault phase either, can't tell, but if not why do artillery have Assault stats in the first place?) After the first round, half the battle takes place in Assault, so that could add up to a big difference.
I can't judge assault phase performance numerically though, until I can figure out exactly how the Assault Damage is applied. In the other games there are two numbers, hits/cohesion. In CW2 there is just one and I can't figure out how to translate it into hits. If I could, I could work out expected values for the different units and we could compare to say for sure.
No problem, hope it didn't just muddy the waters further!
minipol,
I'm not sure of that exactly. According to the AGEWiki, infantry and artillery are targeted equally, it is cav and other support elements that take a back seat, so the hits would be distributed to the artillery too.
Still, artillery hits are expensive and infantry hits are cheap, so you would still stand to gain with more infantry and less artillery (strictly for divisions in an A/C stack of course). Same conclusion, just a different reason.
In Assault phase, if you are the attacker, you artillery will not Assault, and so you would also be much better off with more infantry or cav and less artillery. (Artillery may not defend in Assault phase either, can't tell, but if not why do artillery have Assault stats in the first place?) After the first round, half the battle takes place in Assault, so that could add up to a big difference.
I can't judge assault phase performance numerically though, until I can figure out exactly how the Assault Damage is applied. In the other games there are two numbers, hits/cohesion. In CW2 there is just one and I can't figure out how to translate it into hits. If I could, I could work out expected values for the different units and we could compare to say for sure.
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