General Player to Player Comments

[Jonathan Pollard]

I would like to have an official ruling as to whether China's inability to build merchant ships for the entire game is a bug or WAD. If it's a bug, maybe it can be fixed by adding merchant ship capability to junks.

[Citizen X]

Announcements:

I am taking over Italy for a few weeks for Soulstrider. Hopefully Italy will not to have to make big decisions in that time.

This next weekend I won't be able to give orders on saturday and sunday.

[Jim-NC]

I would like to have an official ruling as to whether China's inability to build merchant ships for the entire game is a bug or WAD. If it's a bug, maybe it can be fixed by adding merchant ship capability to junks.

As I understand it, the original junks for China can be used as merchant ships, but they get upgraded at some point and lose their transport ability. So I would have to say WAD (that is not to say it is correct, but is how the game is designed). I don't believe China even has a model of a merchant ship. Will have to research further.

[nemethand]

I would like to ask for an addtional 15 mins. Thx.

EDIT: thx, done.

[bjfagan]

Ok, will process after Russian turn is uploaded.

Late March 1880

[bjfagan]

I guess I'll take Spain!

Spain's trn file is now in Dropbox for you.

[Jim-NC]

@ Jonathan Pollard - I was looking at the database, and I see a model of a chinese small steamer squadron, but I don't see a unit of the same. I admit that I don't exactly know what the difference is between a model and a unit, so have to figure that out before I can check more on wether China should have transport ships or not.

[Citizen X]

@ Jonathan Pollard - I was looking at the database, and I see a model of a chinese small steamer squadron, but I don't see a unit of the same. I admit that I don't exactly know what the difference is between a model and a unit, so have to figure that out before I can check more on wether China should have transport ships or not.

Afaik, transport ships can't be used as merchant ships in the tradeboxes. At least they have different units and models.

[Jonathan Pollard]

@ Jonathan Pollard - I was looking at the database, and I see a model of a chinese small steamer squadron, but I don't see a unit of the same. I admit that I don't exactly know what the difference is between a model and a unit, so have to figure that out before I can check more on wether China should have transport ships or not.

China can build steam-powered coastal gunboats that have a (tiny) transport capacity but no merchant-trading capacity. The junks that I have now have a transport capacity but no merchant-trading capacity. I tried moving a junk unit to Korea's MTB but was still unable to ship Korea's coal production to China.

[ATTACH]23385[/ATTACH]

[bjfagan]

Early April 1880

[Jonathan Pollard]

@ Jonathan Pollard - I was looking at the database, and I see a model of a chinese small steamer squadron, but I don't see a unit of the same. I admit that I don't exactly know what the difference is between a model and a unit, so have to figure that out before I can check more on wether China should have transport ships or not.

Units are composed of multiple elements (usually individual ships) which have models. For example, the Chinese junk unit has 12 elements, 8 war junks and 4 junks. Here are the specs of the Chinese war junk unit:

UID = 5493
Alias = uni_CHI_Jun1
NationTag = CHI
Name = War Junks
ShortName = War Junks
Text = $uni_txt_CMN_WarJunks
Color = $colCHINavy
DoubleLength = 1
ModelType0 = $mdl_CHI_JJ01A|8
ModelType1 = $mdl_CHI_JJ01B|4
FamilyType0 = $famLightWarship|12
CmdCost = 2
Pillage = 0
BuildRule = $recHarbor
BuildWeight = 3
CustomNames = Di 1 Jün Jiànbu|Di 2 Jün Jiànbu|Di 3 Jün Jiànbu|Di 4 Jün Jiànbu|Di 5 Jün Jiànbu|Di 6 Jün Jiànbu|Di 7 Jün Jiànbu|Di 8 Jün Jiànbu|Di 9 Jün Jiànbu|Di 10 Jün Jiànbu|Di 11 Jün Jiànbu|Di 12 Jün Jiànbu|Di 13 Jün Jiànbu|Di 14 Jün Jiànbu|Di 15 Jün Jiànbu|Di 16 Jün Jiànbu|Di 17 Jün Jiànbu|Di 18 Jün Jiànbu|Di 19 Jün Jiànbu|Di 20 Jün Jiànbu|Di 21 Jün Jiànbu|Di 22 Jün Jiànbu|Di 23 Jün Jiànbu|Di 24 Jün Jiànbu|Di 25 Jün Jiànbu|Di 26 Jün Jiànbu|Di 27 Jün Jiànbu|Di 28 Jün Jiànbu|Di 29 Jün Jiànbu|Di 30 Jün Jiànbu|

I looked at the stats of merchant ship models, they all have a "Attributes = *commerceship*" line that ends with a numeric value. Most merchant ships also have a line that reads something like "Ability0 = $abiMerchant20" although there is also a CMN_Mch model that has "Ability0 = $abiTransport10" in addition to its "*commerceship* 1" attribute.

[bjfagan]

Late April 1880

[coolbean]

Back!

Thanks to Sir Garnet for submitting turns in my absence.

[bjfagan]

Early May 1880

[Jim-NC]

I am going on vacation tomorrow thru Tuesday. My son is taking over again. He will do turns for Monday and Tuesday processing.

[bjfagan]

Late May 1880

Since all the orders are in, I will process now with the revised Shanghai script.

[bjfagan]

Early June 1880

[bjfagan]

Late June 1880

[Jonathan Pollard]

As I understand it, the original junks for China can be used as merchant ships, but they get upgraded at some point and lose their transport ability. So I would have to say WAD (that is not to say it is correct, but is how the game is designed). I don't believe China even has a model of a merchant ship. Will have to research further.

Did you forget that a vote was taken in 1870 on a proposal for "Players of a playable minor with a home Harbor or better can have a force pool of two Commerce Clipper (late sail) merchant fleets built at their own harbor if feasible or purchased abroad otherwise."? You yourself voted yes on that proposal. I could try to mod the models and units file to include those units for China, but it might be easier to mod a change of an existing unit such as the coastal gunboats or coastal sail transports into merchant ships. I think the question now is whether China should have more than the two fleets that were voted, and whether steam merchant ships would be a suitable substitute. According to the results, "How to implement might be more difficult given that the engine auto-updates ships to later tech. This means that steam ships instead of late sails might be given."

Also, maybe you should take into account that China still has two "imaginary" transport units which it bought from Sweden but which were scripted into self-destruction when they auto-upgraded into warships. The Japanese sabotage which I described was merely intended to be a humorous way of accounting for their disappearance. Perhaps I could try to mod the addition to the Chinese forcepool of two transport units of the same type that I bought from Sweden. An alternative would be to assume that those transport units were converted to merchant ships and that I would get either two merchant ships units for "free" or get four merchant ships, two for free and two in the forcepool for which payment is necessary.

[Jim-NC]

It's not that I forgot, it's that I don't think the designers gave China merchant ships. Thus I still believe it is a WAD. And you are correct, we would need to modify models and units to get you the ships. The issue is beyond my meager scripting skills. If you want them, and I assume you do, then I would recommend that you do this as a project with a different installation of the game. If it works, we have to have it added to all the player's machines (especially the hosts), or you will lose them as soon as you get them.

If you can get it to work, and not crash the game, then we can implement. I am not against you getting ships, I just don't know how to do it.

[Jonathan Pollard]

OK, I'll try to mod the merchant ships in a separate install. I believe there's enough information in the modding subforum for me to do it.

EDIT: I tried copying the Swedish merchant ships using the CHI faction instead and also using unused ID numbers, but that did not work. So next I'll try to change Chinese coastal gunboats into merchant ships.

[bjfagan]

Early July 1880


We still need someone to takeover and run Japan

[Jim-NC]

As this is where it should be, the Ottoman Empire has requested that the Bulgarians surrender (as they have no troops), and as anyone can see they have no territories. They have further asked that they be allowed to claim Bulgaria (town of Sofia). It is an objective region of the Ottoman Empire, and they have won the war.

Unless someone else states an objection (and I give everyone 2 days to object), as moderator I will grant this request.

Citizen X, in 2 days time (assuming no one objects), you will need to propose a peace accord with Bulgaria that gives you the region Bulgaria (I do ask that you test the script to ensure it doesn't crash the game, as I believe that Sofia is the Bulgarian capital, and I am not sure what will happen when you claim it).

[Jonathan Pollard]

If it works, we have to have it added to all the player's machines (especially the hosts), or you will lose them as soon as you get them.

If you can get it to work, and not crash the game, then we can implement.

I managed to get the Chinese river gunboat units to change into commerce clipper merchant ships. It requires everyone to substitute two files in the units folder. I put those files in the dropbox folder for the latest turn, they are the 5496-CHI_Riv2 and Units.cached files. I also put them in the GameData\Units Dropbox folder.

The question now is whether China should be limited to two merchant ship units as voted upon, or if I should have more as compensation for all of the time since 1870 that I had 0 merchant ships when I should have had two.

[Sir Garnet]

The idea behind 2 clippers is that it does not cut into the trading shares of the powers with merchant ships significantly, but it does allow the other players 2 choices of places to send merchants to buy critical things that might not be available from major powers in their local MTB (since minor power ships can buy but not sell).

One key test is confirming that these clippers can buy but not sell, tested by sending them to Mexico and the Caribbean trade boxes and seeing over some turns if these countries buy any silk or rice when offered in large quantities. Jim or Brian may recall better, but I think that hinged on both IsMajor=1 status and on a Ruler Attribute setting.

[Citizen X]

I managed to get the Chinese river gunboat units to change into commerce clipper merchant ships. It requires everyone to substitute two files in the units folder. I put those files in the dropbox folder for the latest turn, they are the 5496-CHI_Riv2 and Units.cached files. I also put them in the GameData\Units Dropbox folder.

The question now is whether China should be limited to two merchant ship units as voted upon, or if I should have more as compensation for all of the time since 1870 that I had 0 merchant ships when I should have had two.

As much as I think that every player nation needs to get diplomats I believe that they need to do business abroad. I always thought that this could be accomplished through friendly nations wich doesn't seem to work on everything. Not on shipping ones own stuff from overseas. Thus naturally you get some clipperships. The number should be strictly limited however because as much as the OE gets only two diplomats because of their closed society, so should China be restricted in their trading capabilities, where two squadrons would meet the radius of Chinese seatrading actions of that era. However I recieved a starting boost of 5 diplomats and therefor I can imagine that a special payment of goods, like 200 coal / 100 steel / 50 mfg, would be absolutly in order and get my support.


Don't we nned to change the models file, too, for that change to work?

[Jim-NC]

I managed to get the Chinese river gunboat units to change into commerce clipper merchant ships. It requires everyone to substitute two files in the units folder. I put those files in the dropbox folder for the latest turn, they are the 5496-CHI_Riv2 and Units.cached files. I also put them in the GameData\Units Dropbox folder.

The question now is whether China should be limited to two merchant ship units as voted upon, or if I should have more as compensation for all of the time since 1870 that I had 0 merchant ships when I should have had two.

How many turns did you process with them? I hope at least 12 (to make sure there were no errors from changing the units around).

[Citizen X]

I would like to have four scripts being run over the weekend, if the host would be so kind.

The Ottoman diplomats script. I changed it appropriatly in the script repository.

Then two scripts that belong to the aftermath of the first hectic years.
The Persian coal pit at Ankara had been built there accidently (Savoyard may approve). We agreed that I will get it transfered and pay back the building costs after the war with Russia. The script to do so is in the repository.
And the last payment (two squadrons of merchant ships) for the transfer of Tripolis is ready and the script to execute it is in the repository. Soulstrider approved to do so before he left.

Then there is the script for the Ottoman/Bulgartian peace already. By the time it will be executed (if none objects) I will have by far over 70 warscore which I think is well enough.

[Jonathan Pollard]

I'm about halfway through the dozen turns test with no problems so far. I didn't make any changes to models because the new unit uses an existing CMN merchant ship model file.

EDIT: I can confirm that the new unit has passed the dozen turns test.

[glennbob]

Well I have managed to successfully declare war on Montenegro and occupy their single province, but I am still unable to annex or even see the option to annex on the peace deal screen. Their single province is an Austrian objective, so surely I should have a claim on it? What is there that could be done about this?