[PON] Conflict in Europe - Diplomacy & News Thread

[Kensai]

I will be submitting orders for Egypt to do the negotiations and return this nation to normality (see main thread). There must be some kind of bug, I think, I cannot initiate a Peace Offer to Germany (the OK is not appearing). bjfagan, does it appear for you? If yes, initiate the in-game negotiations (including what reparations you want). If not, we might need to force the peace through script and report this as a bug.

Somewhere in the Desert, Egypt, October 1878

THE KHEDIVA WANTS PEACE

Tired of hiding in the desert and taking into consideration no help* is coming to save them, the Khediva of Egypt Ismail Pasha, has started negotiations with the German government to have his nation freed. The Khediva acknowledges the German position to own the Suez canal and will comply with that demand**, including paying reparations for the next 10 years and supplying German ships in transit. The Khediva will also allow an expeditionary force of max 3 divisions worth (circa 40K troops, including auxiliaries) in the Egyptian capital.


OOC:*it's quite interesting everyone is fighting Kensai, I mean, Egypt was steamrolled by the big villain nation of the game and somehow only Greece (incidentally played by me) got the nasty notification by the British. I am probably becoming paranoid here, but facts speak for themselves. Anyone care to give a big fat loan and old ships (only a few units as the quotas are limited) to the Egyptians?
**canal structure only, not the region; passage and supply rights for the German armies/navies for the next 10 years, this will be enough until Pocus squashes the bug

[Citizen X]

I will be submitting orders for Egypt to do the negotiations and return this nation to normality (see main thread). There must be some kind of bug, I think, I cannot initiate a Peace Offer to Germany (the OK is not appearing). bjfagan, does it appear for you? If yes, initiate the in-game negotiations (including what reparations you want). If not, we might need to force the peace through script and report this as a bug.

Somewhere in the Desert, Egypt, October 1878

THE KHEDIVA WANTS PEACE

Tired of hiding in the desert and taking into consideration no help* is coming to save them, the Khediva of Egypt Ismail Pasha, has started negotiations with the German government to have his nation freed. The Khediva acknowledges the German position to own the Suez canal and will comply with that demand**, including paying reparations for the next 10 years and supplying German ships in transit. The Khediva will also allow an expeditionary force of max 3 divisions worth (circa 40K troops, including auxiliaries) in the Egyptian capital.


OOC:*it's quite interesting everyone is fighting Kensai, I mean, Egypt was steamrolled by the big villain nation of the game and somehow only Greece (incidentally played by me) got the nasty notification by the British. I am probably becoming paranoid here, but facts speak for themselves. Anyone care to give a big fat loan and old ships (only a few units as the quotas are limited) to the Egyptians?
**canal structure only, not the region; passage and supply rights for the German armies/navies for the next 10 years, this will be enough until Pocus squashes the bug

Actually, ever since Lindi left Egypt I was thinking that, given the tight relations between Ottoman Empire and Efgypt I might take it under my rule. I didn't though, because for a new player it might have appered a bit greedy to go with three countries and I wasn't quite prepared to let Colombia go, for the obvious reason that my other avatar nation is being ripped to shreds. And it was also a time issue.

If it is ok with everybody I take Egypt to form an islamic block at this end of the Mediterranean. Be it as it may. I don't want the same player have two avatar nations on two different fronts of my already surrounded country, when that player's other nation will be at war with the OE until presumably the rest of the game and Egypt is still in a defensive alliance with Ottomans. That's a conflict of interests. The short 24h deadline to object isn't helping at all to comfort me.

I just want to remind everybody, that this war was already almost over by successful negotiations and that the reason it didn't happen lied not within the three nations involved. It didn't happen for some game mechanic reason I up to date lack to understand. And it didn't happen, because the mediating nation (Ottomans) were forced into war at that time. This chain of events was the reason a fellow player dropped Egypt in immense frustration in the first place.

I don't know who will be taking Egypt for him, but Kensai and Nemethand will not.

[Kensai]

There was no short deadline, I asked weeks ago who is gonna be taking Egypt and nobody stepped forward. I have already posted publicly (in the general thread) a plan for the transition to peace which has as a goal the return of Egypt to tranquility and reconstruction. It does not matter who will bring it on, it could be even me or nemethand, why not? As long as the chaperon sticks to the declared plan (known to all players), it will be ok. Egypt is a defeated nation with no player. If you feel the plan I proposed was "unworthy" for Egypt go on and counter-propose another one.

If you want to take over after reconstruction (instead of the AI), be my guest, I believe there are only very few "combinations" in this game that we should allow for a single player to play with a complementary nation with real-world relations: one is Portugal-Brazil. The other is the Turkey-Egypt. Historically, the Egyptians were a sidekick of the Ottomans, but this does not seem to have helped them much in our alternate reality.

[Sir Garnet]

OOC: Kensai, I think the package is reasonable for a Western nation and for a Westernized Khedive as politician, but might not be acceptable to the more dedicated followers whose suffering is proof of their faithfulness to their cause and pledges. From the role play perspective, there is glorious struggle and martyrdom close at hand so long as the Germans remain, right? Eventually the infidels will leave or be forced out - one way or the other.

Also, the Suez Canal is so important that Egypt can easily insist on reparations and reconstruction at minimum. I don't recall if Egypt is a Hague signatory, but that is a card to play by a shrewd leader - even being a puppet can be profitable.

There are decent percentage chances of various scenarios.

Having Citizen X take Egypt until it achieves an acceptable peace seems reasonable, but I'd vote to have an umpire for the game call out scenarios and roll off a decision tree to direct the country player (confidentially).

[Citizen X]

OOC: Kensai, I think the package is reasonable for a Western nation and for a Westernized Khedive as politician, but might not be acceptable to the more dedicated followers whose suffering is proof of their faithfulness to their cause and pledges. From the role play perspective, there is glorious struggle and martyrdom close at hand so long as the Germans remain, right? Eventually the infidels will leave or be forced out - one way or the other.

Also, the Suez Canal is so important that Egypt can easily insist on reparations and reconstruction at minimum. I don't recall if Egypt is a Hague signatory, but that is a card to play by a shrewd leader - even being a puppet can be profitable.

There are decent percentage chances of various scenarios.

Having Citizen X take Egypt until it achieves an acceptable peace seems reasonable, but I'd vote to have an umpire for the game call out scenarios and roll off a decision tree to direct the country player (confidentially).

______

That was just a suggestion. Peace there is overdue. In fact, there was one negotiated already.
I believe that with the recent development at hand and the occupation of Suez seemingly off the table, Lindi should be asked first, if he wants Egypt back. That's for fairness reasons. I could live with other solutions, too, anything really. I would take it, for it would fit in the roleplay part. That I am uncomfortable with players who's other nations are at war with the OE is quite understandable, or is it not?


Egypt is no signatory of the Hague Conference.

[Jim-NC]

Red events are "stimuli". Red events prone you to respond, in case you want to be a happy puppy in peace with everyone. If the red events are designed correctly (not all of them are, unfortunately) they will give Prestige penalties in case you don't reply to them.

They can go to war, they don't must. If they don't, one of them is gonna lose Prestige. That's the whole point with the red event stimuli. Force you in dilemmas and shape the history with alternative what if.

The problem is that a lot of red events are not stimuli, and are not choices. They force you down the historical path. Take for example the red event that gave me Cyprus. It did not offer a choice, it just fires, and presto, Britain owns Cyprus. No lease, no payment, no nothing. What if I had been in secret negotiations with the Ottomans? Those are gone. What if I wanted to pay for the island? That is gone due to your insistence on 18% inflation for a price I am willing to give (after the fact).

Another of those forcing scripts is the sale of Alaska to America. There is no way to avoid it, there is no way for Russia to keep it. There are plenty of others (certain countries automatically get protectorates/colonies, even if someone else owns it).

The problem is not the red events, it is that they are not always choices, and those that aren't don't always fit our timeline. So we try to correct, and that doesn't happen.

[Kensai]

The problem is that a lot of red events are not stimuli, and are not choices. They force you down the historical path. Take for example the red event that gave me Cyprus. It did not offer a choice, it just fires, and presto, Britain owns Cyprus. No lease, no payment, no nothing. What if I had been in secret negotiations with the Ottomans? Those are gone. What if I wanted to pay for the island? That is gone due to your insistence on 18% inflation for a price I am willing to give (after the fact).

But you paid your due in the alternate reality pretty close to the real life. You threatened Greece, remember? Ideally you should have declared war but you didn't? Indeed the event was imperfect, if I had to reauthor it I would add a response CB from Britain to Russia in case Russia was at war with Turkey. That way you would have to respond to Russia or take a 10% VP penalty.

I am not responsible for imperfect events, am I? The 18% inflation I proposed was simply in line with what we've been doing in the past with money exchanges, you cannot seriously accuse me of being consistent. I even acknowledged bjfagan's note and suggest curbing it to half for sales and services. Has anyone done the math? I would have taken such a gift even if it had 25-30% inflation, I cannot understand why Citizen X declined this.

Another of those forcing scripts is the sale of Alaska to America. There is no way to avoid it, there is no way for Russia to keep it. There are plenty of others (certain countries automatically get protectorates/colonies, even if someone else owns it).

But some things get accepted as they are. That's why it is important to play IN the game engine limits and accept scripted events. The player simply plays the avatar nation and makes the allowed decisions. Do not confuse the many scripted possibilities we have with the ability to do whatever you want. A player is not supposed to sell his country even if he "thinks" that's the best course of action cause there is no such facility, unfortunately, and we cannot abstract it correctly. Or if we do it, it must have the usual anti-abuse parameters I am not sure most will accept (NM penalty, VP penalty, revolt percentages, etc).

The problem is not the red events, it is that they are not always choices, and those that aren't don't always fit our timeline. So we try to correct, and that doesn't happen.

That's why you need to play along the events as they rise up and adapt accordingly. Who said that this is a game you paint the map your own color? It was Philippe himself that stressed that the game behaves better when a semi-historical course is being followed. Most events up until now have fired properly. There are some (a few) that did not make sense and we adapted them accordingly. Why do we need to add EXTRA that go beyond extended claims is my problem: like leasing Crete to Germany just before Greece is about to invade it, or Hainan to France, or Qingtao to Germany.

OOC: Kensai, I think the package is reasonable for a Western nation and for a Westernized Khedive as politician, but might not be acceptable to the more dedicated followers whose suffering is proof of their faithfulness to their cause and pledges. From the role play perspective, there is glorious struggle and martyrdom close at hand so long as the Germans remain, right? Eventually the infidels will leave or be forced out - one way or the other.

Also, the Suez Canal is so important that Egypt can easily insist on reparations and reconstruction at minimum. I don't recall if Egypt is a Hague signatory, but that is a card to play by a shrewd leader - even being a puppet can be profitable.

Since Egypt does not have a human player now, we are all chaperons atm, we look for the best of it. Indeed I suggested what I suggested after reading a little about Ismail Pasha and his agenda.

I don't think the Suez Channel structure can stay Egyptian, this is not realistic, I suspect it will be German or British or French. It makes sense to be German now. The rest of my public suggestions are simply a path to make this happen in the arc of 2 years.

Having Citizen X take Egypt until it achieves an acceptable peace seems reasonable, but I'd vote to have an umpire for the game call out scenarios and roll off a decision tree to direct the country player (confidentially).

Citizen X can have Egypt (and even permanently), nobody is against this, but we need an exit policy up to then. Egypt is quite ravaged atm. I have already submitted orders for EGY and wait Germany's peace proposal, as soon as the coming turn. All the procedures should be done transparently.

It is this long overdue moment of the peace treaty we have to take care of. If Citizen X feels he wants to lead Egypt right away, be my guest, delete my orders and submit yours. But then you are tied to the process until you rebuild Egypt (and then decide if you want to keep it or return it to AI).

I simply stress that the process must be done in public because Egypt did not have a human player so far.

[Citizen X]

Ideally you should have declared war but you didn't?

Indeed a good question, that from my part you are absolutly free to frankly answer.

I am not responsible for imperfect events, am I? The 18% inflation I proposed was simply in line with what we've been doing in the past with money exchanges, you cannot seriously accuse me of being consistent. I even acknowledged bjfagan's note and suggest curbing it to half for sales and services. Has anyone done the math? I would have taken such a gift even if it had 25-30% inflation, I cannot understand why Citizen X declined this.

http://ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?28298-PON-Conflict-in-Europe-General-Thread&p=275859&viewfull=1#post275859

But some things get accepted as they are. That's why it is important to play IN the game engine limits and accept scripted events. The player simply plays the avatar nation and makes the allowed decisions. Do not confuse the many scripted possibilities we have with the ability to do whatever you want. A player is not supposed to sell his country even if he "thinks" that's the best course of action cause there is no such facility, unfortunately, and we cannot abstract it correctly. Or if we do it, it must have the usual anti-abuse parameters I am not sure most will accept (NM penalty, VP penalty, revolt percentages, etc).

I see no point why a nation shouldn't sell another nation a town when it is that other nations objective. A NM or VP penalty can explained here, while inflation is not.

Since Egypt does not have a human player now, we are all chaperons atm, we look for the best of it. Indeed I suggested what I suggested after reading a little about Ismail Pasha and his agenda.

I don't think the Suez Channel structure can stay Egyptian, this is not realistic, I suspect it will be German or British or French. It makes sense to be German now. The rest of my public suggestions are simply a path to make this happen in the arc of 2 years.


Citizen X can have Egypt (and even permanently), nobody is against this, but we need an exit policy up to then. Egypt is quite ravaged atm. I have already submitted orders for EGY and wait Germany's peace proposal, as soon as the coming turn. All the procedures should be done transparently.

It is this long overdue moment of the peace treaty we have to take care of. If Citizen X feels he wants to lead Egypt right away, be my guest, delete my orders and submit yours. But then you are tied to the process until you rebuild Egypt (and then decide if you want to keep it or return it to AI).

I simply stress that the process must be done in public because Egypt did not have a human player so far.

There has been a proposal for peace long ago, which never fired.
I was already sending bjfagan a PM for the case I was to carry on with Egypt. With the basic proposal to go to peace immediatly and with no further adieu, leaving him the control over the canal (however this may be accomplished) and presto. No loans or stuff involved. It would do no good here anyway, if my above calculations are right. Besides. Ottoman Empire didn't recive starting aid, why should Egypt? If I take Egypt, then for real and until I either leave the game and retire to Colombia.

However, I still think that we shouldn't rush it now and give others the chance to have a say. Maybe Lindi wants it back (wich would rule all other options out imho,) or others feel uncomfortable with ME taking it.

[Kensai]

Indeed a good question, that from my part you are absolutly free to frankly answer.

The player of Britain can only answer this.

http://ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?28298-PON-Conflict-in-Europe-General-Thread&p=275859&viewfull=1#post275859

Yes, they make everything more expensive. But is is better than getting nothing. Moreover, inflation goes down over time quite naturally.

I see no point why a nation shouldn't sell another nation a town when it is that other nations objective. A NM or VP penalty can explained here, while inflation is not.

I really don't have time to go over this again, we had extensive discussions in the old forums on why inflation and other penalties should be added in every single scripted event we add ourselves.

The reason you should not sell assets of your country is that we can't possibly abstract how the pop would feel about it without entering into endless discussions over how to perfectly abstract it with all the penalties, etc.

There has been a proposal for peace long ago, which never fired.
I was already sending bjfagan a PM for the case I was to carry on with Egypt. With the basic proposal to go to peace immediatly and with no further adieu, leaving him the control over the canal (however this may be accomplished) and presto. No loans or stuff involved. It would do no good here anyway, if my above calculations are right. Besides. Ottoman Empire didn't recive starting aid, why should Egypt? If I take Egypt, then for real and until I either leave the game and retire to Colombia.

What is the starting aid you talking about? When did you ask to take Egypt and who said no? I would have been delighted if you did, actually because it's a perfect match. Germany or any other nation cannot keep Suez the region as it's an extended claim. Suez the canal structure is another story.

However, I still think that we shouldn't rush it now and give others the chance to have a say. Maybe Lindi wants it back (wich would rule all other options out imho,) or others feel uncomfortable with ME taking it.

Rush it? What rush it? Are you kidding me? This is long overdue, Egypt declared war and was abandoned by its player and nobody stepped in, letting a nation ravage its assets. If you don't want to do the negotiations let me handle them.

In the meantime, let me express the height of the loan requested (IC):

The Khedive asks nations to step forward for five-year loans of 2500 state funds and 2000 capital to help with the reconstruction. Exclusive commercial agreements in return. Egypt is a country rich in cotton!

[Citizen X]

When did you ask to take Egypt and who said no?

Never and nobody so far. That's why I proposed not to rush it.

[Kensai]

Athens, Greece, November 1878

ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO BREAK THE ATHENIAN SIEGE

The Ottomans tried once more to liberate themselves from the surrounding of Athens to non avail. The Greek army had the help of Russian troops, including a brigade of Cossack cavalry. This time the casualties of the Turks was 5x more than ours. Nonetheless, we were not able to deliver a crippling blow to them either.



---

Yellow Sea, November 1878

THE JAPANESE SORTIE

The Japanese Home Islands fleet made a sortie in search of the American fleet that had so much devastated Admiral Arai's ships and much of our trade potential the past fortnight. But instead of finding the so called "First Fleet" we came across a second, less powerful fleet we were not aware of. This "Second Fleet" (called by the Americans themselves) was made mostly of older wooden designs, some of them even dating from the days of Admiral Perry's 1853 Japanese expedition.

Admiral Kawamura managed to catch up with them (although he would have much wanted to catch up with the First Fleet) and destroyed some of them. The rest of them managed to disengage but were caught on Kawamura's return trip trying to get away under the heavy rain. The Second Fleet was completely oblitarated. The total Japanese losses amount to 2 armored frigates and several damaged other vessels.

[Citizen X]

With the destruction of their Western army the Ottoman Empire government will flee into the mountains of Anatolia. Every commander is odered to commence warfare on his own accord. With the destruction of their last asset, the army, the Ottoman Empire has lost the last thing it might have wanted to save by negotiations. Therefore there will be no more negotiations.

god is our testimony that we never wanted all of this.

------

ooc: is there no mtsg over rivers? have I in earnest never noticed this?

[loki100]

ooc: is there no mtsg over rivers? have I in earnest never noticed this?

it does, but the chance is reduced, so there is a slightly higher chance a force will be caught isolated. I think of it as simulating the problem of moving a large force across a river in a hurry, all it takes is some muppet to break their wheel axel in the middle of a key bridge and you have chaos ...

I got a bad beating in a RoP game due to this problem.

[Sir Garnet]

The United States of America and the Empire of Brazil are pleased to announce a tribute to their past collaboration in the Dutch War in the form of the Friend Ship Flotilla that has been anchored these recent months in Canton. Recall when Brazil was shocked and beset by the overwhelming pooled forces of the Dutch navies, the United States were willing to provide needed warships quickly from new construction rather than suffer Brazil to endure years of enemy taunts and harassment on the beautiful South American coast and depredations across Brazilian territory.

The Empire of Brazil now honors that assistance by giving the United States two squadrons of Ironclad Battleships on the understanding that the United States will give the Empire of Brazil a Steel Battleship from their new construction once they are at peace. The Qing Empire had indicated a prior interest in warships from Brazil, among other countries, but technical issues derailed such ambitions. No impediment apply in the case of the United States, which is pleased to accelerate its procurement program to meet the attack on China.

Although expected military developments favorable to the USA would have made fleet increases seem unnecessary, the devastating Japanese sneak attack upon the nearly defenseless Second Fleet struggling peaceably to port for recovery and repairs makes the transaction urgent to help replace part of the strength that was lost and provide some support for being able to face the Japanese in a fair fight soon enough.

The Imperial Minister of War has stated that there is expected to be no need for replacement Ironclad Battleships, unless is should happen that they were needed for Light Warship roles in the event of shortages of such craft.

{This script works to spawn the same exact ships without the newfangled autoupgrades, based on prior scripts and tested to spawn IC BBs.]
The ships will have been sitting in Canton a few turns}.

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Canton
SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Canton
StartEvent = Brazil Friend Ship Transfer of Ironclad BBs to USA 1878|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Canton|NULL
//In recognition of USA provision of Ironclad ships during Brazil-Netherlands war and USA's later transfer a Steel Battleship sqn to BRZ from USA after USA is at peace
Conditions
MinDate = 1878/09/01
MaxDate = 1879/02/01

Actions

SelectFaction = $BRZ
SelectRegion = $Canton
ChangeResStock = $merOfficer;24
ChangeResStock = $merConscript;56
SelectSubUnits = Region $Canton;FactionTags BRZ;Domains $Naval //These are the only BRZ ships in Canton so don't need ;Families $famHeavyWarship
AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;Kill

SelectFaction = $USA
ChangeResStock = $merOfficer;-24
ChangeResStock = $merConscript;-56

SelectFaction = $USA
SelectRegion = $Canton
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Nav
Entranch = 0
FixType = 0
SetName = Friend Ship Flotilla
Apply

CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_USA_War3
SUFlavorName = Liberty|Freedom|Justice|Order
SetLevel = 2
SetName = 1st Americas Battle Div
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_USA_War3
SUFlavorName = Dom Pedro|Washington|Progress|Prosperity
SetLevel = 2
SetName = 2nd Americas Battle Div
Apply

EndEvent

So please get it run straightaway.

[Kensai]

(I think we should wait before doing this sale, potentially you are not even supposed to have these ships before selling them under the correct BRZ force pool... if after the correction you still want to sell your assets then ok)

[nemethand]

Heavy fighting takes its toll in the East Balkans!

[ATTACH]22966[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]22967[/ATTACH]

Russian forces in Arianople are set to avoid battle - Ahmed Muhtar Pasha may freely retreat to Constantinople.

[Sir Garnet]

Added: The government of the Empire of Brazil is very sensitive to the losses of life and property suffered in the Japanese invasion of China at Tientsin, both as an incident of conflict and deliberate actions of the Japanese forces. How the Empire of Japan will seek amends has not yet been resolved. These past actions, like any actions of espionage, sabotage, and subversion against Imperial forces or subjects that may come to light, may be taken as acts of war.

(I think we should wait before doing this sale, potentially you are not even supposed to have these ships before selling them under the correct BRZ force pool... if after the correction you still want to sell your assets then ok)

[OOC] Don't stall and don't be ridiculous. BRZ has a handful of actual IC BB Sqns not the 26 imaginary ones your statement postulates. Unless we have a firm expectation the force pool should be, say, zero? In which case all the more reason to sell them off, all of them.

[Kensai]

Sir Garnet, do you fully understand the consequences? If yes, next turn we can run it (in my opinion it should be run together with the reversal of the bogus BRZ force pools), but if BRZ cannot build any more the number of battleships you have in mind do not blame me. That's why I am telling you, if we run only the reversal without the sale you might keep what you've already built (completely), if not the engine won't allow you to build anymore.

Your choice.

---

Korean Peninsula, November 1878

AMERICANS LAND ON KOREA!

The expected invasion of Korea started. The Americans have invaded from the West. Our troops will make a valiant stand to keep the conquered Korean lands!

[De_Spinoza]

French observers arrived in Korea
The French army of the Orient, a multi-national force composed of both French expeditionary forces as well as Indochinese draftees, has arrived in the Chinese protectorate of Korea to monitor the Japanese occupation and to protect French merchants, as well as the commercial interests of our allies and friends, on the peninsula. The French government hopes the presence of this force will prevent further Japanese atrocities in Korea, and that Japan will see it as a firm warning against further assaults on Chinese territory.

[Kensai]

The Japanese Foreign Office negates the French communique. There have not been Japanese atrocities. If anything, only Korean (1) (2) or Chinese.

(roleplay better next time! )

[De_Spinoza]

The Japanese Foreign Office negates the French communique. There have not been Japanese atrocities. If anything, only Korean (1) (2) or Chinese.

(roleplay better next time! )

It is the international consensus that all the atrocities named by Japan were the result of deliberate provocations by the Japanese. As already noted by China shortly after these Japanese incursions into the tribal territories of the Formosan and Korean people, the Japanese suffered losses at the hands of the natives because of their blunt and inconsiderate troop movements, which could only have angered these simple yet normally also harmless peoples. This is no surprise, considering Japan barely has any experience with colonial matters. More established colonial powers would know that keeping the natives friendly is essential, if one wants to keep a nations assets and colonials secure. Indeed China appears to have less trouble dealing with these natives than Japan.

As it is evident Japan has not learned from its past ill-advised adventures, which have always resulted in the loss of life for both the natives as well as the indisciplined Japanese soldiers, we doubt Japan can be trusted with any one colony at all. We firmly suggest Japan retreats from Korea to prevent further loss of life.

[Sir Garnet]

Sir Garnet, do you fully understand the consequences? If yes, next turn we can run it (in my opinion it should be run together with the reversal of the bogus BRZ force pools), but if BRZ cannot build any more the number of battleships you have in mind do not blame me. That's why I am telling you, if we run only the reversal without the sale you might keep what you've already built (completely), if not the engine won't allow you to build anymore.

Your choice.

My choice is that the host run the transfer, which is a proper script, right away without delaying further and not holding it hostage to the serious detriment of the USA, which requested these ships months ago.

[It is not OK and not your choice that you decide to host and not run the script because I won't agree to a bogus re-nerf idea that has captivated your attention now that you find Brazilians observing the goings on off your shores. If you want a Kensai-says PON game, then start one with that rule up front.]

My choice is that you stop harping on this fabricated kerfuffle and do what you said and put together the force pool table info needed to review and evaluate all force pools.*

[INDENT]*{GBR and USA naval pools are larger than GER, GER is larger than BRZ - I'm sure POR is smaller, but I have not checked yet. That they are scaled indicates a pattern. The BB pools seem excessively high. Maybe they should all be cut back, but certainly not zeroing out frigates and nerfing corvettes etc. as you wish. Until some general fix founded on logic and the game design and not a bogus obsession, you will need to be satisfied with my agreeing not to build more IC BB that so alarm you.

The BRZ force pools were scaled and researched relative to the (huge excessive enormous) force pools of other secondary powers, and were necessary to fix the lack of frigate force pool and at least bring it up to a level comparable to the Netherlands, with which Brazil was at war. BRZ was faced with the need to rely mostly on battleships for lack of the ability to build frigates, which is a bogus situation for a human player - though the AI wouldn't care. The Kensai plan re-nerfs BRZ lighter craft.} [/INDENT]

For those in the World in Conflict game, are there any force pool issues? Is it running with comparable (enormous?) pools?


Does ANYONE else agree with Kensai on the soundness of his argument and emergency need to nerf Brazil's fleet (either BB or the whole thing) immediately? If not, I am wasting time I could have used to play my turns, cook something nutritious, etc., and this is not even entertaining Kensai. For everyone else, I'm trying to be brief so as to conserve your time reading this.

I see auto-updating gone haywire and how to fix futuristic ships appearing as replacements as a real issue with direct effects.


------
PS Kensai, just to make you happy, if the surprise appearance of doomstacks really is the core issue that gives you chest pains all night, I will vote in favor if you propose a -999 script adjustment on EVERYONE's military force pools (not just Brazil) to prevent all new construction until force pools can be reviewed and revised to everyone's satisfaction and auto-updating is solved. That would temporarily mean no more arms race - just table stakes in any war - surely it will mean world peace.

[Kensai]

We kindly ask to the French government to come to its senses. We understand the shock of being defeated by their neighbor in their core lands, but actually turning against one of its major partners in the Far East to save the already abused Koreans from the Chinese is a tad incomprehensible. The Emperor has given a direct order to avoid harming the local population. All the rest is Chinese propaganda!!

(we have 21st century ethics in the era 19th century, quite interesting! )

My choice is that the host run the transfer, which is a proper script, right away without delaying further and not holding it hostage to the serious detriment of the USA, which requested these ships months ago.

Eh, when? You presented the script only a couple of hours ago... you expected a non game-breaking script to be passed immediately? Who was going to check of its validity? Me again?

Actually, before doing any more sales we have to deal seriously with the BRZ force pool which have broken the naval balance for good. I suggest a megafix for both: fix the force pool which was clearly out of proportions and do the sale in a unique scripted event.

PS Kensai, just to make you happy, if the surprise appearance of doomstacks really is the core issue that gives you chest pains all night, I will vote in favor if you propose a -999 script adjustment on EVERYONE's military force pools (not just Brazil) to prevent all new construction until force pools can be reviewed and revised to everyone's satisfaction and auto-updating is solved. That would temporarily mean no more arms race - just table stakes in any war - surely it will mean world peace.

No other nation has broken force pools because we have not done anything to other nations. It was only BRZ because it was only you who presented that script with the wrong numbers. I had warned against but nobody listened back then, now that we counted the beans it's obvious it was wrong.

[De_Spinoza]

We kindly ask to the French government to come to its senses. We understand the shock of being defeated by their neighbor in their core lands, but actually turning against one of its major partners in the Far East to save the already abused Koreans from the Chinese is a tad incomprehensible. The Emperor has given a direct order to avoid harming the local population. All the rest is Chinese propaganda!!

As we have already made clear by several direct diplomatic cables to your nation, Japan lost France as a friend and partner by their blunt invasion of China. Japan knew perfectly well that we supported China against foreign aggression in the past, that much of the Chinese rail infrastructure was built by France, and that China is economically very important to France. Considering the many discrete, and later, less discrete warnings we gave to your nation over your aggression against China, we are frankly amazed Japan is still surprised over our support for China, which unlike Japan, remains our prime Asian ally and friend.

(we have 21st century ethics in the era 19th century, quite interesting! )

OOC: What makes you think that 21st century ethics differ so much from those of the 19th century? Of course non-western people were to some extent dehumanized by several western intellectuals in support of the imperialist projects of their nations in this era, but that does not mean that 'everything went'. The outrage over German and Belgian atrocities in Africa and the Royal Navy's 'battle against slavery' supported by an ever more powerful abolitionist lobby indeed suggest that at least as many westerners spoke out for the rights of the non-western oppressed.

Your apparent annoyance - which is suggested by you denouncing any intervention, German, French, or U.S., as being 'anachronistic' and 'nonsense' IC - does surprise me. I think I made France's position more than clear by means of IC communication. I assume you imagined that all of China's friends were wrecked by war, and unwilling to work together with former enemies, allowing you to move against China. Now that these nations are in fact willing to intervene it has become clear that you overplayed your hand. And twice, it appears, because you could still have settled for Korea just a few turns ago! You stressed yourself in the past that it is essential for any regional power aiming to expand to ensure that every great power capable of intervening, is willing to allow such an expansion. But you gambled, incorrectly, that France, the U.S. and it appears also Germany were all not willing or able to intervene.

[Citizen X]

OOC:
I can't see an engine isssue here in the Brazilian navy affair, only a historic. But as we don't have a powerful naval power that seeks to keep other navies at bay nor a Monroe doctrinated US, for me Garnet can have a go. This shouldn't be a matter of engine or forcepools or forum discussions anyway. This should be a matter of other superpowers to innterfer ingame. If they don't - very well. Just my five cents.

IC:
(Ottoman Empire government is currently absent anyways (mountains of Anatolia))


The Colombian Government will support any measure that will secure the Americas from foreign rule. The strength of US Navy is one of the best measures to achieve this goal.

[Sir Garnet]

IBN investigators are collecting evidence regarding sabotage attempts against of the Friend Ship Flotilla in Canton. Several bodies and prisoners have been taken in custody in Canton and will be questioned with the assistance of Qing authorities.

[OOC]Since Japan is an enemy of the USA you may be unaware I asked Coolbean to finalize and submit his script but he was pressingly busy with RL as you know and then to be away so I had to do it. I tested and it works exactly as expected. Maybe China can't buy ships, but the USA can - dozens of ICBB Sqns.

Your fixation on BRZ fleet pools so preoccupy you that it has an adverse and unfair effect on the game for the USA which suffers disadvantage in its naval war.

Maybe someone else host turns so Kensai can focus on his force pool research (collecting the data)?*

[INDENT]*BRZ force pools were broken and were fixed. Now if all pools are broken everyone is in the same boat. In the interest of history, how about scaling everyone down based on historical fleet size? Which would turn force pools upside down to favor smaller craft. That would pretty nicely cut Japan's fleet to little more than a coastal force at this time, which is why the invasion of Korea historically was impossible at this time.[/INDENT]

[Kensai]

Guys, this is not a "historical" issue. This is a gameplay and house rules issue. Gameplay because it screws the balance among nations. It is not normal that a 'minor' nation has a bigger force pool than the protagonists of the era (including GBR, GER, etc). It makes for a gamey game. House rules issue, because we do not allow extended force pools. Now, don't get me wrong, we had voted for this force pool and passed regularly the voting scrutiny, but this was BEFORE somebody actually counted the appearing ships. I don't imply that Sir Garnet did this in bad faith, nobody knew. But now we know and it has to be fixed.

The sale actually no problem, I simply didn't have time to test it before deadline. Hopefully tomorrow. Just with a quick look it already has some potential issues in the heat of the battle. Cohesion appears to be 100% in the above script. If we had run it it would have given by magic the USA some spawned transport ships in Canton, ready to be used the next turn. Uncool abstraction. Please use the templates.

Your fixation on BRZ fleet pools so preoccupy you that it has an adverse and unfair effect on the game for the USA which suffers disadvantage in its naval war with Japan.

Actually, it would have only been unfair to Japan for the simple fact the script did not use the limited forced cohesion we have used in the past. Sorry, but I need to test every single thing you throw me from now on. Many players have pushed for wrong scripts so far (yours with the force pool, Jonathan with the Chinese ships that were transformed to ironclads, etc). IT IS IMPERATIVE TO BE CAREFUL with scripts, that's why I urge you to come into my shoes for a moment. The magic does not simply happen.

*BRZ force pools were broken and were fixed. Now if all pools are broken everyone is in the same boat. In the interest of history, how about scaling everyone down based on historical fleet size? Which would turn force pools upside down to favor smaller craft. That would pretty nicely cut Japan's fleet to little more than a coastal force at this time, which is why the invasion of Korea historically was impossible at this time.

Again: the other force pools are not broken. There are no problems with the other force pools, except for those nations that do not sport certain models, but that's a design flow. We cannot calculate the historical fleet size on a started game with various techs already in. What we can calculate is the initial force pool and hope that techs are added up.

The only change was done to BRZ and it is the only nation that has to be reversed, imo. We haven't even seen what the newly adjusted numbers will be. Have you passed the reverse script?

[Citizen X]

Ahmed Muhtar Pasha cables to other Ottoman fieldcommanders:

+++ Corps massacred by Russians +++ STOP +++ Was on march to Constantinople +++ STOP +++ So much for the word of a Cossack +++ STOP +++ AMP +++ END +++

[lukasberger]

Kensai, no one else thinks the Brazilian force pool is "broken" or even an issue. You're outvoted 15 to 1 on this. Let it go.

[Kensai]

Ahmed Muhtar Pasha cables to other Ottoman fieldcommanders:

+++ Corps massacred by Russians +++ STOP +++ Was on march to Constantinople +++ STOP +++ So much for the word of a Cossack +++ STOP +++ AMP +++ END +++

Technical explanation: if Russia was on defensive and your forces on defensive but without enough MC, a fight could automatically happen even as you moved them out. Unless you commanded you troops in Passive, a battle could have ensued, as it happened. Of course, you could not have expected the Russian troops to be in Passive...

Kensai, no one else, no one at all, thinks the Brazilian force pool is "broken" or even an issue. You're outvoted 15 to 1 on this. Let it go.

Excuse me, are you joking? That was before we actually saw what appears on map. Do you find a BRZ naval force pool more than GER something normal?

Listen guys, I am tired. Every day fighting for the same crap. I have to act as the 'bad guy' just to keep it in its original historical frame. It is obvious I am minority here, so I won't be stopping you anymore. Please decide what game you want and I will play along, no more questions asked.

I have already taken my decision, I will be cloning the game from tomorrow, starting from Early January 1878. I think it is the best course of action so people can decide on which game to hop in: the Hardcore or the Arcade one as both will be available in close sync.