[PON] Conflict in Europe - General Thread

[Sir Garnet]

Britain long ago - before I joined the game - offered Portugal the opportunity to mine coal, so it seemed reasonable and well-mannered to oblige them in respect of the mine.

As mentioned in my vote message, foreign investments can be set to sell locally, which, depending on circumstances, may mean that only the host country can buy and thus has a steady supply.

[Kensai]

How can you set them sell locally without some changes in the code of the game? I do not think this is possible unless you mean to have the players "sell" all of what is harvested or mined in a place. That could be done (personally, I already do this most of the time) but why force it? Foreign investments are ok, just try to respect the structure/force pool quotas of each nation. I repeat, maxed out structures is something crazy so early in the game and leads to stressing of the supply-demand balance. By overstimulating the world economy you have extremely satisfied citizens who reproduce and raise the demand further BEFORE critical "efficiency techs" in production appear. I know it's a catch 22, but players need to control themselves and always remember that this is a damn long game.

(by a sheer coincidence, coal especially does not need to be fixed as the system buys coal for industry and ships before shutting them down... some issues still exist: you cannot upgrade all structures or buy replacements for ships that need coal, but that is actually a good sign to shut down or even disband and recreate later perhaps at a better, more efficient region with railroad and more resource availability... in the meantime refrain from building railroads everywhere as they consume coal and cannot be shut down unless with a script)

[Boernes]

(by a sheer coincidence, coal especially does not need to be fixed as the system buys coal for industry and ships before shutting them down...

Are you sure? In the recent past I repeatedly had production losses because some factories didnt have enough coal. No messages or other trace that coal was bought, the game just doesnt shut them down anymore

[Kensai]

I am 4 out of 5 turns on negative coal balance, I haven't noticed a "production loss" issue (or message). I sincerely do not pay close attention at that level though, the far more important problem is that I cannot buy replacement chits for ships, but I don't try to buy vigorously from the market either. If problems arise I will do exactly that. If still not getting enough, I will shut down some unneeded factory production. Only as last resort I should stop trading coal (at least a minimal portion of it) or go on to build more coal mines (as Japan is way below its upper structure pools). There are so many ways to deal with this non issue.

[bjfagan]

Kensai, so what you are saying is we don't really need coal to run our factories, that even with a negative balance the game will pay for the coal to keep the factories running? Every time I get near that magical number of structure expenses needed to run everything, as seen on the F4 screen, mines and other colonial stuff start to shut down and cause all kinds of problems.

[Sir Garnet]

Businessmen from different countries can agree upon local sale of a fixed amount from a foreign investment structure, and such agreement on a fixed amount is important in order that the amounts set aside for sale locally are taken up. For example, Brazilian capitalists will be proposing to build coal mines on foreign soil for partial local sale and partial export to Brazil for domestic use or resale on the world market in order to achieve the goal of having some quantity of every good available for foreign merchant ships to purchase from Brazil.

Brazilian structures are often shut down from time to time due to input or full stockpile issues and sometimes due to negative margins.

[Kensai]

Lack of coal that shuts down structures has been fixed in a previous patch, look at the release notes, that's all I am saying. Having a consistent lack of coal unless you are at a major war (as Japan) means that you probably overexpanded your industrial capacity, railroad network, moving too much ships and troops by rail or a combination of all these. In any way, for the n'th time: read the CBOT that was just published. There is NO lack of coal according to the amounts some nations have hoarded and the price attributed in game. As there is no lack of "gems" either, it's simply that some nations have them, some other not.

Early December 1877

[Boernes]

Lack of coal that shuts down structures has been fixed in a previous patch, look at the release notes, that's all I am saying. Having a consistent lack of coal unless you are at a major war (as Japan) means that you probably overexpanded your industrial capacity, railroad network, moving too much ships and troops by rail or a combination of all these. In any way, for the n'th time: read the CBOT that was just published. There is NO lack of coal according to the amounts some nations have hoarded and the price attributed in game. As there is no lack of "gems" either, it's simply that some nations have them, some other not.

Early December 1877

It doesnt shut down the factories entirely (as in you'd have to activate them again), they just dont produce anything for that turn, which in the end is the same thing. As for the stockpiles, I dont know what the major nations have for a per-turn coal consumption, but they might as well be just about the margin which they need for running their economies, even if their stocks seem enormous (maybe not austria, I highly doubt that; but the rest might)

[Jim-NC]

I second Boernes, if you do not have enough stock of a resource at the start of the turn, then some of the industries that use it will not produce that turn. To me, it appears that you only emergency buy if you don't have enough for transportation needs.

As Britain, I have more coal needs then I can meet, so I already have shut down some industry to save coal. This causes me to be limit my building of mechanical structures, and my not building a single new coal-using farm in approximately 1 year.

I also believe that ships consume coal even when not moving.

@ Kensai - if you notice, all my advanced railroads (except the 1st) are in regions with coal mines. I believe that the increase in coal mine production outweighs the added rail coal costs.

[Sir Garnet]

I second Boernes, if you do not have enough stock of a resource at the start of the turn, then some of the industries that use it will not produce that turn. To me, it appears that you only emergency buy if you don't have enough for transportation needs.

This is in the manual and confirmed by experience.

[Kensai]

As Britain, I have more coal needs then I can meet, so I already have shut down some industry to save coal. This causes me to be limit my building of mechanical structures, and my not building a single new coal-using farm in approximately 1 year.

Regardless if production really stalls or not, this is the best abstraction. The fact that you are stopped from building further structures, which would have further created imbalances is in my book the reason why the designers of the game did right to place structure pools in the game that have to be respected. If I were you I would make a serious survey of all operations and completely disband all those industries that are unneeded (not only temporary shutdown, properly delete them) and create them in those regions with abundance of resources to get advantage of the resource availability bonus (if we are talking about fields and mines) and industries only in the few highly developed and happy regions that give consistent happiness and productivity bonuses. We haven't even reached half of the game in turns count, why would someone have created more than 1/2 or 2/3 of his total structure pool? Moreover, not being able to deliver all goods needed in your national or colonial market in all 3 categories is perfectly normal. As long as you manage to keep contentment relatively high and militancy/strikes under control, this is the normal course of the game. All WAD.

In case you are not convinced, just read the past discussions with Vezina in "the era of abundance" where he was complaining about the exact opposite, really fascinating, the low prices in every possible resource due to overcapacity. Now we finally have a working balanced system and still there are complains. Oh well. Anyway, please vote in the Player Discussion folder so we can count the votes of the proposal.

[Jonathan Pollard]

Is this game being played with the setting that requires units to be at depots in order to take replacements?

[lukasberger]

Is this game being played with the setting that requires units to be at depots in order to take replacements?

I think so. I may have gotten replacements when not in a depot before, but being in a depot certainly helps greatly.

[Sir Garnet]

Hardcore mode! Use depots to upgrade elements or replace entire kist elements. There is some recovery of hits for over-supplied land units, and fleets in port. So battered armies are best withdrawn to a well-stocked depot to refit. This does favor a historical(istic) rotation of battered divisions or corps out of the front line.

[Kensai]

Late December 1877
Hardcore mode meaning with all difficulty settings on except for a super-clairvoyant AI which does not play a role since most nations are played by humans anyway. Jonathan, remember to install the latest .exe on top of your game. You can find it in the Dropbox. Please make a backup of the old just in case.

[Citizen X]

Ok. I am warming this up again. I think that player lead nation must not be without or with only few diplomats. It is a major disadvantage. I am not going into discussion here. It has all been said before.
I simply put forth a vote.

1. Should players that don't recieve at least 5 diplomats by the engine have them scripted

2. or rather rather 3

3. or none

?

How I put it into the dropbox?

[lukasberger]

How I put it into the dropbox?

I created a new folder called Ottoman Dips under the player discussion section of dropbox. Just put a txt file called proposal.txt in that folder with the text you just posted in it.

Then create another text file called vote citizen x.txt with your vote.

[nemethand]

Hell, no! After thinking about it... Ottomans might soon be up for grabs.
Having a hillariuosly outnumbered and outdated military and almost no industry and getting a DOW after 10 turns by several nations including one of the leading nations is not quite an invitation. And absolutly no fun. Had I known that you were going to play this out no matter what I wouldnt have put effort into OE. I was ready to take the challenge of a country so down as this. Thus I offered a diplomatic gameplay to play out the Bulgarian crisis AND get me some time to make this country at least a playable nation. So that everybody could have his fun and I wouldn't need to claim a "spawn protection" of several years which by all means this OE needs, no matter whats been said about it.
Now this DOW, wich will set me back even further and will, if played out, strip me of the rest of my army (which the balcan minors alone nearly match me, given the amount and the equipment of their combined armies) and of a considerable amount of my land and resources. And industry, because my predecessors not only chose to dismantle several factories but also put the one's they built into the bulgarian area, heaven know's why.

This is no fun. Had this situation arised from my misjudgement in the last gameyears or all gameyears I would face it without a hint of complaint. But being encouraged into sticking with it and then getting gangbanged makes me feel abused (oun intended).

Btw. Asking me under these circumstances whether I was "the man" pisses me off big time with all that in mind. I am experienced enough in playing the OE to know what it can accomplish and what not and how it can or should look like in 1877. And actually you can't know if I am a man at all.

Last let me ask you a favour should anybody answer this. Don't come to me with history. I am all into historic gaming and often take the odd countries. But if a chance to alter the historic course is not intended I rather watch a movie.

Citizen X, (a truly great movie, BTW :cool

Since I consider myself personally addressed, I feel compelled to answer.

In short, what you suspect, allege or hint at had never been my intention. Exactly on the contrary. As Russia, for some strange reasons, I always ended up on the side of Turkey. True, Russia has asked the price of this, being objective reasons.

However, after the "last" war, after some concerns were expressed on the forums, I have checked the Balkan events and realised we could miss some of the fun, not choosing the "historical" path. Lukas, Sir Garnet and Joe can all confirm that - I have been constantly approaching them to terminate the Treaty of Plevna, which had granted the future Bulgarian and Kars to Russia, in exchange for (i) not attacking it; and (ii) helping it against the British.

For lack of time and other RL constraints, I could not implement the return to the status qou ante in time; you may recall that it was Kensai who corrected my faulty draft script.

To be honest, I was happy when you took over OE; I thought fighting against and beating the AI might not be a challenge, as compared to what is posed by a human player. Diplomacy in the present case did not work because, as you may see from the above, I had been preparing for this war for quite some time. I was waiting for the last moment, expecting the Bulgaria event to fire, which did not happen, so I could not wait any longer.

That's all in a nutshell. So, no mischief or conspiracy there.

[Kensai]

Citizen X, you dog, did you just swallow Montenegro for breakfast?!
This is the Ottomans on its knees?

This is huge fun, actually, and I agree with nemethand's interpretation (which has been confirmed by both Philippes): to get the most fun out of this game you need to divert from the historical reality as little as possible, otherwise some events might not fire. Actually, what Russia (and Greece) did was some little roleplaying. The same I've been trying to do as Japan to make my case for Formosa and Korea accepted. It's the game. I really think you can put up a valiant defense here before going to terms (which are not harsh anyway, as far as I've seen). And remember, the most important aspect is always diplomacy...

Ok. I am warming this up again. I think that player lead nation must not be without or with only few diplomats. It is a major disadvantage. I am not going into discussion here. It has all been said before.
I simply put forth a vote.

1. Should players that don't recieve at least 5 diplomats by the engine have them scripted

2. or rather rather 3

3. or none

?

How I put it into the dropbox?

We had this discussed in the past. I believe that having 0 diplos must be a bug, but I remember China had 0 as well when the infant Emperor with its abominable stats (2-2-2) was reigning. Perhaps it simply abstracts the complete passivity of the current regime to initiate diplomatic arrangements (as you can always respond to others, that part is not broken). I think that with no diplomats you cannot even cancel past arrangements: now this may be WAD to make you even weaker and only the recipient of diplomatic moves or indeed too much. Put it on vote, but we should also ask Pocus and Philippe what they think.

[lukasberger]

That's all in a nutshell. So, no mischief or conspiracy there.

I can certainly confirm this. nemethand has acted very honourably throughout and has been a friend of the OE throughout the entire course of the game, up till now. Everything he says here is absolutely true. I had given him all the land he's fighting you for in exchange for help against GB. He could have simply kept it. Instead he's done the right thing by returning it and giving you a chance to fight for it, which will hurt him as he's going to lose a lot of troops during the war. So to question his motives is just not fair at all. The only conspiracy here is one of circumstances.

In fact I've always found nemethand to be one of the most honourable and trustworthy of all the players in this game, which was a relief when I first joined as several of the great powers, GB in particular, were controlled by players who were duplicitous and underhanded.

[Jonathan Pollard]

Late December 1877
Jonathan, remember to install the latest .exe on top of your game. You can find it in the Dropbox. Please make a backup of the old just in case.

I reinstalled all of the files in the dropbox (I think I forgot the .exe and maybe some others before) after I sent the .ord file for the latest turn. When I looked at the latest .trn file I noticed that both land and sea units suffered much more attrition than previously. Did any of those files affect the rate of attrition losses?

EDIT: I noticed a message saying I did not have sufficient items for the upkeep of all of my elements, I think that had something to do with it.

[Citizen X]

Just to make this clear. Allthough I vented a lot of steam I do not think bad of anybody here. So there is nothing personal.



I couldn't have put the whole mysery into better words than nemethand did in hisd post:

"That's all in a nutshell. So, no mischief or conspiracy there."
Thats not what I am tzalking about.

However... what you are telling me here is to the letter what I am complaining about.

"Diplomacy in the present case did not work because, as you may see from the above, I had been preparing for this war for quite some time. I was waiting for the last moment, expecting the Bulgaria event to fire, which did not happen, so I could not wait any longer."
That a long set script runs down and there was nothing of my behalf that I could have been doing to prevent it and there is nothing that I can do to turn the outcome because I lack the means.

And there it is, excactly what pisses my off (sorry, my elvish), when nemethand says:
"To be honest, I was happy when you took over OE; I thought fighting against and beating the AI might not be a challenge, as compared to what is posed by a human player."

Just turn it around in my ears and soon it reads: beating you is more fun than beating the AI.
You still wonder why I am mad? Really?

I can't know what has been said and done in the past here. I am here for just a few turns and the only thing that made me try the Ottoman Empire was the fact that I had two strong allies. Now go figure.

But I am not taking back. I gonna play till April 1878 and try whatever is possible.

[Kensai]

But I am not taking back. I gonna play till April 1878 and try whatever is possible.

May I ask you something... what makes you think you are in a hopeless situation? Don't tell me you believe the F10 screen with its "combat ratios"? Russia is indeed 2-3x stronger (on paper) than the Ottoman Empire but it has to defend a 5x larger area, its armies are not state-of-the-art (you have to try Germany for that, your armies will melt on impact). The other Balkan nations (Moldavia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro) are really a bite away, frankly. Last, you fight a defensive war which can be quite a different story.

Trust me, I stop here cause you might actually become too serious for this conflict and I happen to play Greece. Just give it a chance and you might be pleasantly surprised at what you can do. Simply remember to (1) protect your capital, (2) buy enough replacements each turn from the F3 screen to keep your armies and navies battle-worthy.

[nemethand]

And there it is, excactly what pisses my off (sorry, my elvish), when nemethand says:
"To be honest, I was happy when you took over OE; I thought fighting against and beating the AI might not be a challenge, as compared to what is posed by a human player."

Just turn it around in my ears and soon it reads: beating you is more fun than beating the AI.
You still wonder why I am mad? Really?

Apologies if I was unclear: for me, playing against fellow players without any doubt is more challenging and, thus, fun than playing against AI.

I am rather sure I could beat the AI but I have no clue how it would go against a human player - you or someone else. So, it is far from what you imply by saying "beating you is more fun than beating the AI". I simply dunno if I can beat you or not. Only time will - would - tell.

[Citizen X]

May I ask you something... what makes you think you are in a hopeless situation? Don't tell me you believe the F10 screen with its "combat ratios"? Russia is indeed 2-3x stronger (on paper) than the Ottoman Empire but it has to defend a 5x larger area, its armies are not state-of-the-art (you have to try Germany for that, your armies will melt on impact). The other Balkan nations (Moldavia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro) are really a bite away, frankly. Last, you fight a defensive war which can be quite a different story.

Trust me, I stop here cause you might actually become too serious for this conflict and I happen to play Greece. Just give it a chance and you might be pleasantly surprised at what you can do. Simply remember to (1) protect your capital, (2) buy enough replacements each turn from the F3 screen to keep your armies and navies battle-worthy.

Just consult the books of industrial output. Then do the maths. Its not the troops. Allthough a good part of them still fights with clubs.

[bjfagan]

Citizen X,

Sorry for having to drop our alliance, but as Lukasberger stated Germany has had an extremely close friendship with Russia for a very long time. There is no way Germany would go to war against Russia over the OE. (Maybe Poland, but not the OE.... ... sorry nemethand I just had to throw that in there). But look at the bright side, I am not helping them either with the German troops sitting in Egypt.

Hopefully, your diplomacy PM's and emails are flying around the world right now. There are some countries that could help out and who are not particularly very fond of Russia. You should take advantage of the lack of a German/Russian defensive alliance and see who will join you by DoW on Russia without fear of a German required DoW in response.

[Jim-NC]

Citizen X,

Sorry for having to drop our alliance, but as Lukasberger stated Germany has had an extremely close friendship with Russia for a very long time. There is no way Germany would go to war against Russia over the OE. (Maybe Poland, but not the OE.... ... sorry nemethand I just had to throw that in there). But look at the bright side, I am not helping them either with the German troops sitting in Egypt.

Hopefully, your diplomacy PM's and emails are flying around the world right now. There are some countries that could help out and who are not particularly very fond of Russia. You should take advantage of the lack of a German/Russian defensive alliance and see who will join you by DoW on Russia without fear of a German required DoW in response.

The problem is that is a useless statement. Due to all the NAPs, there are very few countries that can help the Ottomans without breaking our NAPs. Thus there is not help for them against the Russian horde. Now the Greeks are a different story, and the Ottomans could get help in defending against the Greeks (or several of the other minors). For example, the Austrians may be persuaded to crush some of the AI countries, so that the Ottomans have an easier time. There could be gifts of money or supplies as well to the OE.

Hopefully Citizen X, you are talking to others, and getting some positive results about assistance to other countries.

[Sir Garnet]

By the book, unqualified Non Aggression Pacts are inherently destabilizing and a known invitation to aggressive depredations. Those with suitable exceptions for the protected country getting into other wars work better if there is concern over nearby conflicts. Naked NAPs should be recognized as mutual tacit support for aggression.

[Kensai]

You seem to underestimate some pure geopolitical factors when fighting in defense and in homeland (or close to it). I don't blame you. I was called nuts for doing a Japanese defense against the combined onslaught of Germany and Russia, but it worked. Not because Japan was strong (combined it was 4x smaller), but as the attacking forces stretch their lines and get into logistics issues, the defender becomes stronger, albeit losing territory and industrial capacity from occupation. In the end, if there is no exit policy or a check mate thanks to a clear and attainable objective, the aggressor will find it difficult to press for his claims. The defender is usually entrenched, well supplied, with new units spawning nearby. The defender can decide where to fight: on the mountains, across a river, etc. Do not think that a major power of the era does not risk when it is entangled in such a serious conflict.

This applies also to the Chinese-Japanese war, that conflict is far from over now that Japan is in the offensive and has stepped on the mainland where hordes of defensive Chinese soldiers can be amassed quickly without the logistics issues they faced in Korea.

We will see. One thing is certain, Citizen X, the CBOT industrial values mean almost nothing in a defensive consolidating war as long as your can at least have the few resources needed (mainly manufactured goods, steel, and state funds) to buy the replacement chits for the disabled elements. Focus on these, the rest is like the rest of AGEOD games: pure warfare.

[Citizen X]

You seem to underestimate some pure geopolitical factors when fighting in defense and in homeland (or close to it). I don't blame you. I was called nuts for doing a Japanese defense against the combined onslaught of Germany and Russia, but it worked. Not because Japan was strong (combined it was 4x smaller), but as the attacking forces stretch their lines and get into logistics issues, the defender becomes stronger, albeit losing territory and industrial capacity from occupation. In the end, if there is no exit policy or a check mate thanks to a clear and attainable objective, the aggressor will find it difficult to press for his claims. The defender is usually entrenched, well supplied, with new units spawning nearby. The defender can decide where to fight: on the mountains, across a river, etc. Do not think that a major power of the era does not risk when it is entangled in such a serious conflict.

This applies also to the Chinese-Japanese war, that conflict is far from over now that Japan is in the offensive and has stepped on the mainland where hordes of defensive Chinese soldiers can be amassed quickly without the logistics issues they faced in Korea.

We will see. One thing is certain, Citizen X, the CBOT industrial values mean almost nothing in a defensive consolidating war as long as your can at least have the few resources needed (mainly manufactured goods, steel, and state funds) to buy the replacement chits for the disabled elements. Focus on these, the rest is like the rest of AGEOD games: pure warfare.

We will see ^^