Manufacturing Italy (a PoN GC)

[loki100]

[CENTER]Population[/CENTER]

This was originally part of the Industrial report but as that became too long I decided to split this out. It is closely linked to that in some respects in that population = demand and population = input resources. I’ll start with what is quite a challenge in PoN of keeping your people happy. As was clear post-unification, widespread dissent is bad news and exceptionally hard to eradicate.

Happy people

Keeping your people happy is a simple matter of giving them what they want.

Yeah right.

Now as is probably clear, this is actually a challenge. First is the producing and buying of the goods they want and this demand increases over time. Second, a number of techs increase either the speed at which they become militant or the seriousness of the consequences when militancy rises.

This is mostly tech driven and, unlike in Victoria, in PoN you cannot decide to avoid certain techs. You can decide not to invest in them but sooner or later they will fire. There are three groups that affect how your population intersects with your economy:

1. a group that increase consumption levels for each type of population;
2. a group that either increases the impact of dissatisfaction on militancy (ie makes dissatisfied people more militant); or,
3. makes militant people more quickly dissatisfied.

These last two are not quite the same. Some techs mean that once they are dissatisfied, they are more likely to shift to demonstrations, strikes or outright revolt. Others mean that once they are in some form of revolt, their satisfaction drops more quickly. In combination, potentially a vicious cycle.

Your only defences are ensuring you sell enough to meet their needs and passing the various decrees such as education, trades union legalisation, social security and so on that remove militancy. My instinct is that as the Nineteenth Century progresses, keeping it all in check becomes more and more difficult. You can also improve the rate of gain of contentment by lowering key taxes (but of course that makes investing in the social programmes that reduce militancy all the more difficult).

Its for these reasons I now think the Ottoman Empire is not going to recover. It clearly has a widespread revolt problem, I doubt it can buy in much, it will need to keep taxes high in an attempt to recover its fiscal position.

Population Growth

The other factor that drives consumption is population growth and population change. The former is partly organic and partly comes from playing all those development (telecommunications and sewers) cards. Now those also increase development level which is good and sometimes give small amounts of prestige. But basically population will grow, will expect more and will become more vocal if these needs are not met.

We’ll start with the reports you are used to seeing. Main issue here is some return of militancy but I think this is connected with recent techs (anarchism, Paris Commune) that have fired rather than any underlying cause. What this does show is the way that I am in a bit of a race to discover population pleasing techs (or run my economy on that basis) set against the social and political developments of the Nineteenth Century.

Also, frequently playing cards around education and so on all help to control the situation (& all cost state money).

Any major flaw in an economy is going to quickly produce substantial unrest.

I’m going to do two views on the population table (and compare them to the situation in September 1864 when unification occurred). The first is the table you are used to looking at that shows population and happiness. The key measure is back then, contentment was 53% and militancy was 13% (now 85% and 2%).



Now this (to me … but then I love this sort of stuff), is rather interesting.

As you can see, all those sewers and telecommunications mean that Italy is now all at development level 100 (apart from Lazio) compared to in the 80-90 range on unification. [color="#FF0000"]edit - Equally the rate of population growth (final column) has increased. So for example Sicilia was 1.58 on unification and is now 2.34. In general, the rate of population expansion is up 50% since unification.[/color]

Now lets look at the side of this table I’ve tended not to report on as it shows how the make up of that population has varied (again Tuscany is missing from 1864).



Average education has actually not increased that much. I’m not too sure why but it may be the consequence of population growth against whatever outcome my (fixed) social system produces?

The actual shifts in population detail are quite complex. The manual talks about shifts in social class and so on but to me that looks mostly like the same ratios in 1873 as in 1864, just more people at every social class.


There is other information that I have been usually not reporting. These summarise contentment, militancy, population type (Italy is still 66% peasants), ethnicity (within Italy only the French minorities in Savoy and the Alpes Maritimes) and notional religion.



Population Growth and Change

There are three population change mechanisms that happen mostly out of your control. Within a province, population will move from countryside to urban (so shift from farmers to industrial labourers), population will move to different social groups (education plays a role here) and population will move locally if there is unemployment in one province and work in another. All these rather happen out of your control but my assumption is if you do sensible things then predictable outcomes will happen. Long range migration (unlike in Victoria) only happens by event (there is one that moves population to N America for example), again out of your control.

In addition, population increase can be triggered by playing the two development cards I currently have – telecommunications and sewers.

The next bit of population information is demand for the three classes of goods – food, common, luxury. These vary by social class and are increased for all classes as certain techs are fired. Obviously, total population then, in turn, influences total demand.

Thing to note here is that the more individual items you supply the more positive the impact. There is a limit to how much anyone good can supply in any case, but for example, if you supply most of the food goods that is better than just fish and cereals.



So at the moment, as discussed in the economy report, I am meeting my demands in all but the luxury goods aspect, and bringing on line those gems and the remaining opium will help

So demand for all goods by all social classes has increased. What you see is the combination of base rate population gain (as discussed above around 50% for each social class) and of the demand increasing techs that I have reported as they fire. So the demand by peasants for luxuries has doubled, my guess is the move from 8-12 is population related (ie there are more of them) and from 12-15 is tech related (they now expect more).

Population at the province level.

Those of you used to Victoria are also perhaps used to looking at the population by province (and of course in V1 the joys of ‘pop-splitting’). One claim in the PoN manual is that if you site too much or too little industrial activity it will be less efficient. Well I’ll be honest and say I can’t find any evidence for this, as an eg lets look at an ammunition plant in Taranto compared to one in Piedmont.



So I’ll file that one under ‘unproven’. Its clear that development level has a real impact as does the presence (or lack) of railway lines, but I am not sure the attempt to model industrial density actually works.

On that basis, its not really clear why you would want to dig deep into the province population model when making location decisions. If you do, then it is not easy, as I’ll try to show.

I’ll use Piedmonte as my example as it is a well developed industrial centre.



This summarises the situation. It is a level 9 city, with a population about 55% rural 45% urban (so this is high for Italy) and has a lot of production (which makes sense as it was the focus of my development when I was just Sardinia-Piedmont).

Now we can work out if I have unemployment. Or at least try:



Yep, you need to check every factory etc, and it’s not easy.



Which I think tells us very little. Its not quite a black box model, not least you can see a lot of information, but its clearly not one you are designed to interact with or use.

The only clear message there is it seems as if a basic factory employs 65 people, one with the first upgrade 85 and I guess so on. Equally a base agricultural site employs 20, an upgrade 30. But then in turn, as you start the upgrade path it makes sense to concentrate on a few and let others lag.

So that is another update you really don’t need to read to follow the AAR. In truth, either by design, or due to how the information is presented, the population dynamics in PoN are rather opaque and feel mostly out of your control. Its one of the ways in which PoN varies from Victoria.

[loki100]

The breadth of information that you've gathered and processed here... It frankly leaves me speechless. Not meant to sound like pat criticism, but since I don't play the game, I genuinely don't know how to interact with it, if you will. Except perhaps by doing my worst Southern accent and saying: "That there looks mighty complicated, son."

But even though it all flies straight over my head, I still want to thank you for dissecting it all for us.

yeah, I feel a bit guilty about this pair of updates - last one in particular.

Reads more like a manual than an AAR, esp the latter as it really seems as if the Population model in PoN is 'look, don't touch'. Realistic in a way, but quite a shift of mindset if you are Victoria veteran. Think the next one (colonies) will be a better fit as much less about mechanics and more about what I've managed to get up while the AAR concentrated on the Ottoman war. Final one on the army will be a sort of mix of the two styles, but some catch up on my OOB will be useful as context to what I really need to try to achieve in the next 2-4 game years.

A good clear description I should like to draw from if you are comfortable with the nuances.

I do miss the Vicky range of political and social paths available. The idea that progressive/socialist measures are what satisfies the militants is a conventional idea that works for Continental Europe from the tail decades of the 19th C but does not fit all places. It does, however, even things and make social issues more straightforward for game purposes.

The Ottomans can solve both the revolt and unrest issues wiht troops rather than costly social legislation. Sending in the troops is likely to work out badly for liberals but is the simple and effective first resort of autocrats. The long and detailed description of national attributes specifically discusses militancy effects of some of these attributes among other fascinating aspects, verified by looking at the database modifiers or dev discussions.

I am impressed that you attempted the arduous task of computing unemployment. It would be nice to know what effect it has, and confirm whether an inactive structure counts its people as employed or unemployed.

In general feel free to lift anything you want, if it helps in some way with the game manual and documentation then its something I'm more than happy to contribute too (indirectly)

Good, in a way, that the Ottomans can recover, as in the earlier discussion, once I have taken all I want, I'd like them to have some robustness - not least it might mean some other juicy morsels (Kuwait?) remain available for me later in the game. But mainly as a barrier to the Russians.

Closed factories don't consume labourers, I've checked that. I forget how to read the two numbers (65/65), I think the second is potential employees (& one on strike retains that number), the first is actual.

What I remain utterly unclear over is if it matters. I think in those population tables I can see some evidence of internal population drift in Italy, but I am not sure whether or not it matters that say 33% of the potential working population in Turin is unemployed (& its worse almost everywhere else in Italy). I worked it out to test a proposition (I guess its the social science researcher in me), but having found some data I remain utterly unsure what it implies o

Very in depth updates! It is very interesting (at least for me) to see the state of your economy in the 1870s not least because it gives me a good idea of what I'll be facing (at least when real life lets me return to gaming that is)

Regarding your point about industrial density and population I have seen the manpower efficiency dip when I have added factories to a province with a lot of factories which I believe relates to the size of your available urban population ie I did not have enough trained workers in the region to support the structure at full efficiency. This seems to sort it self out after 6 months or so which I think must be simulating the flow of people from the countyside coming in to the towns to take up employment.

Again looking at your economics post I think the single most important aspect as you mention is to meet your domestic demand. Reading your AAR gave me a real heads up to the shortage of luxuries I was going to face when Italy unified. Focusing on making sure I had enough luxuries to meet demand in the post unification period meant the period of domestic chaos in my game was shortened considerably.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

I think with hindsight I should have spent more of that post-unification cash and capital mountain on luxuries. I could have paid over the odds for gold etc and probably got the dissent down a lot faster.

Interesting about productivity. I think there is something going on, not least there are constantly hard to explain variances in the F11 screen - just I tend to file it under 'not much I can do about it'. I'm pretty sure that unless you really really over concentrate, there is no impact of any real concern (unless you then went and lost the province in war)

Next update on the Empire, no real game mechanic issues, just setting out where I've got to and the challenges I face. Last of this sequence will be on the army and that will be a bit of a mix as I will try and explore a few mechanisms along with presenting my OOB.

Then into 1873 ... which so far (I'm up to August) is NOT proving the nice quiet period I had fantasies of experiencing

[loki100]

This post will concentrate on my colonial Empire. It will be much less about the game mechanics and more an attempt to review where I’ve got to, and explore what I now need to do to gain the full advantages of my current holdings.

As such, it is another indication of why I need a period of relative peace. I’ve expanded faster than I have developed what I have, and I need to bring this into balance as soon as I can.

[CENTER]Overview[/CENTER]

Now one challenge with exploring the Empire is to find a decent summary map. The colonial affairs screen is the only real option and the green blobs show where I am active.



In effect an arc running from Dubai to Mombassa on the western edge of the Indian Ocean is one group. And then, separated from this, is my new acquisition in Libya.

To answer an earlier question. If all this Empire was in my SOI I would gain 2 PPs per turn, as a lot isn't I only gain 1 PP (note that slowly SOIs can shift so maybe over time this extended region will be acknowledged as properly part of Italy - at least by the other colonial powers).

At some stage the issue of filling in the gaps needs to be addressed. Ethiopia is a very tempting and prestigious target (as below), Eqypt/Palestine more of interest in terms of easing my communications (it takes about 24-26 days from Italy to my Red Sea ports).




A second problem is gaining an overview of the population in the colonies. You can expand the population screen to include non-national holdings but it then needs a lot of fiddling with to produce something of any use.

What I’ve managed to do is to sort on nationality, so any province which has Italian nationals shows up below



So Mogadishu is the most ‘Italian’ of my provinces (I have sent several groups of settlers there). Compared to the Italian provinces, note the low development levels (only a few provinces over 70%, many well below that) and the low education levels (5-15) and also the low ‘working age’ populations (the rebel held regions of Libya show as 0).

One task is to improve the rail net, both for troop movements and to improve development levels (and in turn efficiency of resource extraction).

Interesting, but in truth, not much that can be done with that information.

So, lets look at the sub-regions of my Empire in more detail.

[CENTER]Libya[/CENTER]

This shows the extent of my basic problem. I hold Tripoli (am building up the depot and harbour) with a fortress brigade and that western most province (even the rebels don't want it?). Garibaldi will move here soon to start taking control of the rest. But at the moment it is full of rebels, sand, shell holes from the Italian navy and not much else.



There must be more resources so I will send a prospecting team when the region is a bit calmer and see what else exists. But my war gains from the Ottomans really are more a matter of prestige than real assets.

[CENTER]Oman/Yemen[/CENTER]

This is different. My logic to grabbing this area was two fold. The resources (coffee and opium) and the location. In combination with my holdings around Djibuti this gives me a lot of control over the exit to the Red Sea. All I need is for someone to now build the Suez canal and this makes sense.

Anyway lots of good things there and so far not fully exploited.



In total there are 3 opium resources (only 2 being exploited at the moment), 5 Coffee (again only 2 being developed), 1 dye and 1 cow. I’ve added more information for Hoeideida and Sanaa as they are my core provinces. They are also the only colonial provinces with a train line built (hence the relatively high development level).

And fairly well garrisoned.



Which, if anything I need more of as it is a fairly volatile region. Also those highly useful native units are very fragile as I have no replacement chits for them.

[CENTER]Djibuti/Massawa[/CENTER]

This is different again. Not much of any real value (the coffee resources are all in Ethopia) but the value is in the potential. Not only as a source of control over the Red Sea but as the base for a future expansion into Ethiopia. Worth stressing this will be a serious war – at least one of their columns is over 1000 power, in poor terrain etc.



Djibuti is my main military base, it’s a level 5 port, level 3 depot and well garrisoned. I also have a transport squadron in the wider region so those units can be deployed to any emerging trouble spots.

The resources are mostly fish and dyes.



[CENTER]Somalia/Somaliland[/CENTER]

This is my colonial holding to the south of Ethiopia. The Ethiopians hold one coastal province breaking my land connection (not that marching overland is a good idea). However, it does have better resources.



And a very weak garrison, I need to improve this as soon as I can. My regional transport fleet will be ordered back to Djibuti, but has just taken a colonial brigade to my last colonial region in this wider area.


[CENTER]Kenya/Zanzibar[/CENTER]

To the south, I have grabbed this region. It is outside my SOI but adds nicely to my control of this arc of provinces on the NW side of the Indian Ocean. Fruits and Opium are both useful as is the potential (if I ever gain the ability to build explorers) to move inland.



There is a colonial brigade there at the moment, protecting my interests and the Prussians are playing around in Dar es Salaam.

[CENTER]Persian Gulf.[/CENTER]

If I can hold it and develop this region, it has the potential to be (rather literally) the jewel in my crown. The resources alone are worth real investment as is the longer term potential to become the power in the wider Arabian region.



I have a colonial and garrison brigade there at the moment.

The main problem is that British outpost. I really do not want a colonial war with the UK.

But fully exploited (I have no mines there yet) and with railways this will go a long way to satisfying my internal demand for luxuries and helping my balance of payments by selling the surplus.

Key to all this, is I have a lot of potential undeveloped from my gains so far. I reckon 2-3 opium resources, 3-4 gems, 1 oil, 2-3 coffee (all these I can sell or will be valuable). My Empire sort of makes geographic sense, and the logic of adding Egypt and Palestine is clear. Ethiopia for the prestige and just maybe take the upper Persian Gulf region if the British stay away and the Ottomans fall apart.

But I have a lot of expenditure to make the best use of what I already hold, as well as to make sure it is properly defended.

[loki100]

[Italian Accent] That Empire, she is a beauty. [/Italian Accent]

Oh one question, is there any way to check if there are any undiscovered resources in a region?

yes and no, this has been a source of debate on the AGEOD forum. You can build 'explorers' and then search for new resources in any region adjacent to the one they are deployed in. Its relatively expensive and a bit hit and miss. All that is fine, but some provinces are empty of resources (there is no way to tell this except by digging into the game files) so you can spend a lot of time/money searching in provinces where there is nothing to find. Some resources also reveal by event.

I assume there are ways to modify how hard you push on the British presence in Qatar? Or will you decide the rest of Abu Dhabi is sufficient and leave them be?

Well I am trying not to do anything in Qatar (except set up a trade post), (un)fortunately, as we'll see I get all 3 provinces when my colony is established - the good thing is this is 5 gem resources, so far the British haven't responded so I may have got away with it. I'll be happier when that area is legitimately in my SOI (probably about 1910 ... the strength of your claim does very slowly improve)

Good comprehensive update as always. Not sure why you would want to go to war in Ethiopia though? Looks like your average CP there is already at 27 within a year , year and a half you could acquire it peacefully through colonial actions (protectorate and colony) plus you would then gain that 1000 per stack for war with Egypt after a formal colony is declared.

The explorer thing seems odd I definitely have them to build in my game have you lost a few destroyed and possibly the pool is empty?

I can't raise CP in Ethiopian provinces over 35 but have spotted that I had low/nil CP in a number of the more isolated western most provinces, so am trying to rectify that. Gaining Ethiopia without a war and with all those nice colonial units is a very attractive prize.

Much, much potential - both for the good (exploiting resources and the locals!) and for the bad (upsetting the natives! Great power rivalries!).

It's interesting to see how well the game seems to model real-life colonial ventures: the lure of extra resources and prestige that turns into a sinkhole of your resources, the fact that you constantly have to push further to protect your gains as they finally become profitable... There's a compelling urge to expand just a little further, set up an extra buffer zone, see if you can seize that one more prize (see your comment about Kuwait).

You have a nice Empire on you there, mister, but - like your inherited colonial troops - it seems very brittle.

yes, once you have one bit, the 'logic' is to grab something else to defend it and so on - in the end, like the British in the nineteenth century you delude yourself into believing that Afghanistan is a crucial part of your Empire ....

Unexplored areas.

as above I'm having problems here as I don't have the explorer unit type. I think, as with Suez below, I need to do some modding to ensure that what makes sense in this game becomes feasible

I never checked since I only built it myself as France, but maybe the Suez Canal tech would allow you to build it. OR simply mod or add to the event to give Italy the opportunity. Historically Italy did not have these early and extensive Imperial ambitions, but it would be the natural interested party in these circumstances. The AI probably won't mind so long as it is open to them.

I think you are right, France has no particular reason so I'll see what I can script, creating a Med-Red Sea link makes a lot of sense to Italy in this game.

I agree with Sir Garnet. In your timeline it would probably make sense that Italy would be in the frontline to make the Suez ( maybe also the UK, since they surely have extensive interests in Asia , or the French, for the exact same reasons ) and, if you really realize your Egyptian ambitions, it would make no sense if someone else would do it...

To be honest your empire looks impressive enough, but it looks also extremely susceptible to situations where you are locally overrun, especially if you get in a situation where your colonial troops lose elements. You clearly need either Egypt in your empire or the Suez open to be able to use your army to the fullest and prevent that. The Qatari riff-raff with the UK also does not bode anything good ...

It is fragile. If I get into a global war with the UK then I can't really defend it. I am not going to build a large navy as my logic is my wars will be either with weak naval powers (Austria, Ottomans) or ones far too powerful for me to match (Britain, France). In the latter case I can't really move units by sea. If I had access, and rails, across Egypt at least I'd have some basis to combine my disparate military forces. As Stuyvesant noted, that is one problem with these Empires - the logic for expansion is rather compelling.

[loki100]

This is the last of this sequence and I’ll go over the army at the end of the Ottoman war. There will be some discussion of mechanics but mostly just to set out, again, what challenges I face in recovering my losses.

If I you are interested in the underlying combat mechanics in AGEOD games, there are good discussions specific to WiA here and more generally over on the AGEOD forum, here. The latter in particular discusses how stacks make their target selection and provides an explanation for what happened at the decisive battle of Adrianople. The opening Ottoman assault saw all three of their armies select one of mine, that retired in disorder but the victory badly disordered the Ottomans, allowing my two (mostly) untouched armies to rally and turn the tables.

[CENTER]OOB[/CENTER]

I’ve already covered the deployment of the colonial units so this looks at the 4 armies currently in Italy. Three armies are going to be deployed on the Po and the final one, led by Garibaldi, is of course on its way to Libya.



Note that the red bar (underlying strength) is less than 100% for each formation. This reflects lost elements in the main corps in the battles around Istanbul. I can recover some of these very slowly, the formation needs to be in passive (green mode) and deployed on a depot.

So the 3 armies are:



One main issue is that in addition to the missing combat elements, I have lost a lot of valuable support units – balloons, signals units and hospital formations. But those three armies are just short of 250,000 men and 1,500 cannons, so quite a powerful force.

And Garibaldi waiting to return to war.



[CENTER]Unit Details[/CENTER]

Here are some of my key units in more detail. The key to reading this is that the attack/defence scores accessed on the left hand side (or by mousing over the element) are averages. Instead units really have differential combat values at different ranges. The little red figure shows the offensive fire value at 4 ranges, the blue one defensive fire at 3 ranges. Range 0, the bottom row, is for the assault phase – close combat.

If we go back to the Ottoman battles, remember I inflicted a lot of damage at range and one battle I lost was when the snow prevented effective ranged fire.

First unit is one of my Guards formation. Note they have a useful combat bonus as a result.



The next is line infantry



Note how much better the Guards formations are on almost every characteristic. Initiative is the exception, and this one determines which formation will fire first in any encounter. So a high value unit has the chance to inflict losses before the enemy (at that range) has the chance to return fire. Discipline is the likelihood a unit will actually engage in the assault phase.



A fairly typical cavalry formation, at this stage still just about useful on a European battlefield but pretty soon to be relegated to a secondary role.



Typical field artillery. Not yet the long range killer it will be soon (this is iron-bored) as most of its power is still line of sight and as part of direct combat. Still due to how frontage works, these are hugely important force multipliers. As in the Ottoman battles my more numerous (and better) artillery inflicted heavy ranged casualties on them.



Siege artillery, but pretty useful in the field. Their special traits are that they slow a column down but increase the chance of gaining a breach on a fortress. Main thing to note is the lower rate of fire but longer range. In an open battle, these will inflict losses before the enemy can respond. They are also about to be replaced by a newer, more effective model.



Last, and far from least, a colonial infantry regiment. Note they are less well trained (lower initiative and discipline) than line infantry, better on the attack and weaker on the defence.

These units mostly reflect the recent gains of iron-rifles and iron muzzle loaded artillery (the siege units are yet to upgrade), so I guess this is a pretty standard early 1870s army.

So with that we move into 1873 – irate Austrians, very irate Yemenis, Gari doing what he does best – its all to come. I also have a mound of Seville Oranges to make into marmalade and, as ever, that sort of cooking goes so well with having Pride of Nations running in the background (but don’t pour the hot marmalade onto your laptop).

[loki100]

[color="#FF0000"]The comments below were from various posters and are a neat summary of the issues around naval strategy so I've copied them over[/color]

It is fragile. If I get into a global war with the UK then I can't really defend it. I am not going to build a large navy as my logic is my wars will be either with weak naval powers (Austria, Ottomans) or ones far too powerful for me to match (Britain, France). In the latter case I can't really move units by sea. If I had access, and rails, across Egypt at least I'd have some basis to combine my disparate military forces. As Stuyvesant noted, that is one problem with these Empires - the logic for expansion is rather compelling.

That is logical. The inferior naval power may rely on keeping a strike force in being as a threat and reaiding forces for commerce raiding and fast, hazardous transits. Should check out torpedo boats when they come up.

Not having control of the seas also raises the question of where to put colonial forts, depots and military railways - run them inland, not on the coast except for important cities/ports? Definitely worth prior planning.

One of the fascinating strategic puzzles is the balance of power between naval and land forces. France, Spain, Sweden and - to a lesser degree - Italy all came to grief on that rock. Germany was able to support both arms by dint of prodigious financial power but proved unable to use her naval strength in really effective ways. The old saying that, 'There is nothing more expensive than a second-best army,' applies also to navies, with the added point that it is generally faster to rebuild regiments than warships.

If Italy has a navy adequate to contain the Ottomans and Austrians, and has good relations with France (and hopefully Britain) then she may consider herself very well-served. It is not conceivable that she could build a navy capable of overthrowing that of France without stripping her land defenses (possibly not even if she did so). Far better to fortify a few points and depend on army corps to answer a potential invasion on Sicily or the 'boot'.

Moe than one country wound up with a 'vanity navy' that was expensive, poorly suited for the kind of warfare it needed to fight, and insufficient to counter a real challenge. I congratulate you on avoiding this strategic sinkhole, the more so since most European and South American statesmen of the era were unable to do so.

Of course you do have the advantage of not having to contend with public enthusiasms promoted by steel, armaments and shipbuilding interests

Powloon, I'm not as familiar with the game mechanics as you are so I assume you are right. I do know Vic and Vic2 moderately well and the habit there of spawning enough ships to plate the ocean in metal is both annoying and deeply ahistorical. In 'real life' the construction of even a couple of first-class warships was a matter for serious budgetary debate.

Italy historically proceeded under the assumption you give, with mixed results. Her naval theorists (and designers) believed they could exploit new technologies to build bigger, faster, more powerful ships to out-class their opponents. And through purchase and construction, and great financial strain, they did create a powerful ironclad fleet. Unfortunately the fleet was applied to bad strategy and 'led' to sad defeat by an inferior force at Lissa. This defeat was followed by decades of expensive rebuilding with the Navy having to fight for every cent. In that instance Italy gained nothing and lost much from what was on paper one of the best fleets of technologically superior ironclads anywhere. Bad leadership in this case more than offset superior hardware.

The 'second navy' (I'm lumping in everything from Benedetto Brin's Duilio and Dandolo to Cuniberti's Regina Elena) produced some sophisticated and amazing ships, though several of them exploited technical factors that soon changed (the cellular system used in Duilio and Dandolo in place of armor was rendered obsolete by the rapid introduction of quick-firing guns), leaving the older ships quite vulnerable. So even if Italy had been able to build a dozen Duilios - they could barely afford two more - they would within a decade have been saddled with an obsolete fleet that could not be risked in battle and so have to spend the money all over again.

So Italy needed a larger number of warships than she could afford to build and keep. She needed a coherent squadron of ships with similar handling characteristics and not a series of 'one-off' experimentals (this was however true of every navy of the day). And she needed an expert and professional officer corps backed by well-trained seamen, and she wasn't able to produce that either. Italy wound up with an expensive fleet comprised of a small number of fast but brittle warships capable of containing Austria in the Adriatic but unable to match Britain or France. (The lack of coal, the same as the lack of oil in WWII, would have kept the Italian Navy in port had either France or Britain been an enemy). The real measure of Brin and Cuniberti's contributions is that their ideas were widely admired but not directly adopted elsewhere. Even Cuniberti's all-big-gun ship would have been a disaster if built to his original design. And as for the Italian insistence on speed at the expense of guns and armor, well... that didn't work out in practice.

I understand that, in-game, a ship is a ship and the navies fight as skillfully and hard as the controlling player tells them to, without regard for the practicalities of fuel, ammunition, repair yards, politics and crew quality. I'm just pointing out that this does not correspond to real life. I do regret that game designers in general seem to have such trouble recreating the command and training problems posed by fast-moving steam-powered fleets, but that's another issue.

Thank you for helping me to see how the game works - I appreciate it and hope you will continue. I like quite a lot of what I see about PoN but I admit to being a little daunted by the learning curve.

Crew quality differences matter a lot, but accumulated crew quality applies only to the current ship. Training has a cost and reduces experience, and replacement means an effectively fresh crew. Having bases to allow repairs is key in any long campaign, and for upgrades foreign bases won't do.

Ammunition is quite important, and disastrous to run short in face of the enemy. Fuel is unimportant so long as there is enough. There are good reasons to stockpile fuel.

That's good to know, and it shows more insight than the usual 'invest x items, build it and forget it' system that some games use. But crew and officer quality really should be developed strategically (via institutes) rather than tactically (ship-by-ship), I think. Officers and captains trained 'in common' deliver similar, reproduceable results when moved from ship to ship, no matter that there will be some variations in quality across the fleet. Of course military institutions can calcify (see British Naval rigidity 1860-1890) but they still tend to produce a certain baseline of quality. In the early ironclad era one sees warships taken into battle with almost-entirely green crews and still used to some effect. Training becomes more important as ships get more complex, but even in the dreadnought-era a few months working-up was considered sufficient to get the crew up to minimum standards.

Good and realistic training pays off in equipment that works, engines that run and weapons that not only fire but that hit their targets. One has only to look at Lissa, Manila Bay, Tsushima and the numerous European and Japanese naval battles with China to see the powerful force-mulitplier of a well-trained crew. But one must also have officers willing to lead in battle and able to inspire their men. All of those battles could have been very different if the personalities of the commanding officers were switched, I think.

Training reduces experience? That seems counter-intuitive since the game time-frame predates modern management methods.

Use of foreign bases is tricky to model but absolutely necessary for some of the campaigns of the era. The US made (quiet) use of British facilities before striking at Manila Bay in the Spanish-American War, and the Russian fleet was able to coal and make modest repairs at a number of ports on the way to Tsushima. The broad range of advantages the British accrued from their numerous and well-sited naval and refueling bases permitted the Royal Navy to be the world's only service with real global reach.

The importance of munitions and fuel (coal) stockpiles are easily understandable.

Sounds like PoN takes a good stab at the 'intangible' issues of crew quality, repairs and logistical support without going too deep into minutae. That's kudos to the AGEOD team then.

[loki100]

That is logical. The inferior naval power may rely on keeping a strike force in being as a threat and reaiding forces for commerce raiding and fast, hazardous transits. Should check out torpedo boats when they come up.

Not having control of the seas also raises the question of where to put colonial forts, depots and military railways - run them inland, not on the coast except for important cities/ports? Definitely worth prior planning.

I believe that was the rail design the Ottomans used in real life, so their domestic system was laid out to avoid the easy to traverse coastal plains and wanders all around the foothills, notionally out of range of ship borne artillery.

One of the fascinating strategic puzzles is the balance of power between naval and land forces. France, Spain, Sweden and - to a lesser degree - Italy all came to grief on that rock. Germany was able to support both arms by dint of prodigious financial power but proved unable to use her naval strength in really effective ways. The old saying that, 'There is nothing more expensive than a second-best army,' applies also to navies, with the added point that it is generally faster to rebuild regiments than warships.

If Italy has a navy adequate to contain the Ottomans and Austrians, and has good relations with France (and hopefully Britain) then she may consider herself very well-served. It is not conceivable that she could build a navy capable of overthrowing that of France without stripping her land defenses (possibly not even if she did so). Far better to fortify a few points and depend on army corps to answer a potential invasion on Sicily or the 'boot'.

Moe than one country wound up with a 'vanity navy' that was expensive, poorly suited for the kind of warfare it needed to fight, and insufficient to counter a real challenge. I congratulate you on avoiding this strategic sinkhole, the more so since most European and South American statesmen of the era were unable to do so.

Of course you do have the advantage of not having to contend with public enthusiasms promoted by steel, armaments and shipbuilding interests.

Wow Victor E sure does love his artillery. I notice del Rocca's 12th Brigata has what suspicously looks like a breech loading icon. Did you get this piece off the turks or are you currently in the process of upgrading your artillery?

I am fairly confident you would be able (if you want to) build a navy to compete with the other world powers. Bearing in mind that most of the ships of the worlds navies which are currently in service are soon to become obscelete and the fact that naval units do not seem particularly expensive when compared to income (in PON at least) you could easilly be on level terms with the other powers whilst still being able to compete on land. Could be wrong about ship costs though as I have yet to see how expensive the later ship models are.

Very intriguing titbits from the end of the post particularly regarding the Austrians!

The artillery has two odd units. I have 2 guns that were captured when I destroyed all the combat elements in Ottoman corps (the guns then seem to appear as unique units) and 1 is the remnant of one of my formations that were destroyed. I'm up to iron breech loaders now, but I think those screen shots were all taken while I was shifting models.

Powloon, I'm not as familiar with the game mechanics as you are so I assume you are right. I do know Vic and Vic2 moderately well and the habit there of spawning enough ships to plate the ocean in metal is both annoying and deeply ahistorical. In 'real life' the construction of even a couple of first-class warships was a matter for serious budgetary debate.

Italy historically proceeded under the assumption you give, with mixed results. Her naval theorists (and designers) believed they could exploit new technologies to build bigger, faster, more powerful ships to out-class their opponents. And through purchase and construction, and great financial strain, they did create a powerful ironclad fleet. Unfortunately the fleet was applied to bad strategy and 'led' to sad defeat by an inferior force at Lissa. This defeat was followed by decades of expensive rebuilding with the Navy having to fight for every cent. In that instance Italy gained nothing and lost much from what was on paper one of the best fleets of technologically superior ironclads anywhere. Bad leadership in this case more than offset superior hardware.

The 'second navy' (I'm lumping in everything from Benedetto Brin's Duilio and Dandolo to Cuniberti's Regina Elena) produced some sophisticated and amazing ships, though several of them exploited technical factors that soon changed (the cellular system used in Duilio and Dandolo in place of armor was rendered obsolete by the rapid introduction of quick-firing guns), leaving the older ships quite vulnerable. So even if Italy had been able to build a dozen Duilios - they could barely afford two more - they would within a decade have been saddled with an obsolete fleet that could not be risked in battle and so have to spend the money all over again.

So Italy needed a larger number of warships than she could afford to build and keep. She needed a coherent squadron of ships with similar handling characteristics and not a series of 'one-off' experimentals (this was however true of every navy of the day). And she needed an expert and professional officer corps backed by well-trained seamen, and she wasn't able to produce that either. Italy wound up with an expensive fleet comprised of a small number of fast but brittle warships capable of containing Austria in the Adriatic but unable to match Britain or France. (The lack of coal, the same as the lack of oil in WWII, would have kept the Italian Navy in port had either France or Britain been an enemy). The real measure of Brin and Cuniberti's contributions is that their ideas were widely admired but not directly adopted elsewhere. Even Cuniberti's all-big-gun ship would have been a disaster if built to his original design. And as for the Italian insistence on speed at the expense of guns and armor, well... that didn't work out in practice.

I understand that, in-game, a ship is a ship and the navies fight as skillfully and hard as the controlling player tells them to, without regard for the practicalities of fuel, ammunition, repair yards, politics and crew quality. I'm just pointing out that this does not correspond to real life. I do regret that game designers in general seem to have such trouble recreating the command and training problems posed by fast-moving steam-powered fleets, but that's another issue.

Thank you for helping me to see how the game works - I appreciate it and hope you will continue. I like quite a lot of what I see about PoN but I admit to being a little daunted by the learning curve.

Crew quality differences matter a lot, but accumulated crew quality applies only to the current ship. Training has a cost and reduces experience, and replacement means an effectively fresh crew. Having bases to allow repairs is key in any long campaign, and for upgrades foreign bases won't do.

Ammunition is quite important, and disastrous to run short in face of the enemy. Fuel is unimportant so long as there is enough. There are good reasons to stockpile fuel.

That's good to know, and it shows more insight than the usual 'invest x items, build it and forget it' system that some games use. But crew and officer quality really should be developed strategically (via institutes) rather than tactically (ship-by-ship), I think. Officers and captains trained 'in common' deliver similar, reproduceable results when moved from ship to ship, no matter that there will be some variations in quality across the fleet. Of course military institutions can calcify (see British Naval rigidity 1860-1890) but they still tend to produce a certain baseline of quality. In the early ironclad era one sees warships taken into battle with almost-entirely green crews and still used to some effect. Training becomes more important as ships get more complex, but even in the dreadnought-era a few months working-up was considered sufficient to get the crew up to minimum standards.

Good and realistic training pays off in equipment that works, engines that run and weapons that not only fire but that hit their targets. One has only to look at Lissa, Manila Bay, Tsushima and the numerous European and Japanese naval battles with China to see the powerful force-mulitplier of a well-trained crew. But one must also have officers willing to lead in battle and able to inspire their men. All of those battles could have been very different if the personalities of the commanding officers were switched, I think.

Training reduces experience? That seems counter-intuitive since the game time-frame predates modern management methods.

Use of foreign bases is tricky to model but absolutely necessary for some of the campaigns of the era. The US made (quiet) use of British facilities before striking at Manila Bay in the Spanish-American War, and the Russian fleet was able to coal and make modest repairs at a number of ports on the way to Tsushima. The broad range of advantages the British accrued from their numerous and well-sited naval and refueling bases permitted the Royal Navy to be the world's only service with real global reach.

The importance of munitions and fuel (coal) stockpiles are easily understandable.

Sounds like PoN takes a good stab at the 'intangible' issues of crew quality, repairs and logistical support without going too deep into minutae. That's kudos to the AGEOD team then.

Well that is one erudite discussion. My grasp of naval strategy is appalling (one of the many reasons I liked Myth's superb HOI3 AAR - 'Explorations in Strategy' - was his obvious grasp of how to apply seapower). To add a little, both conceptual and my own plans.

I think no game captures the importance of having ships of quite similar capabilities as long as naval battles were essentially line of sight and reliant on formation. I read somewhere that one reason the RN was so dominant in the age of sail wasn't particulary crew or ship quality but that uniquely they could scrap ships every 15 years. Whereas other powers kept slightly older ships in service. In a battle line, that meant the RN's ships of the lines operated on very similar principles. Its like the failure to model that the British Army in the Napoleonic wars had an advantage in cavarly - the British uniquely had enough stallions that they could use them to mount the combat cavalry - everyone else used mares and geldings.

If I understand the evolution in naval design from the start of coal through oil is it was one of constant experimentation. So not only were ships more expensive but had a shorter life and battle squadrons started to become more diverse. Less important in that there was no real naval clashes up to WW1 but potentially quite important.

Now my (fantasy) grand strategy is based on the following views. I can pass France in prestige (it will be no secret after the comments in the next post but I do so by mid-1874). Ditto Russia is now in my sights (my modern industry will allow me to catch up with them). Less sure about the USA, as they are gaining prestige from their own colonial expansion as they push west. So Britain is the real foe. I need double their prestige to win. So I need to do two things, at the least hold them back and more importantly get past them. Somehow, somewhere that has to mean a war, and one on my terms. I haven't got a clue how to engineer this, how it will work with alliances (I need at least to have the French on my side) but one thing I am sure is I can't meet the RN at sea. So there is no point building a grand navy, I need a bigger one than I have but that can wait. I do need a navy that can play cat and mouse.

*edit - actually thinking more about this (which is what this damn game does to you), I need a Russian alliance as much as, if not more than, a French one. My logic is that Russia can really threaten the UK in places I can't really reach (India). Now at the moment they are engaged in eating the Central Asian Khanates, but then this is a long term war, not one for the next 10 years *

Director - more generally I think you'd like PoN and I'm very tempted to a US game at some stage (more than playing the US in Victoria). I think the feeling of being constrained in PoN makes for richer narrative drivers (says he, writing the most basic of game play AARs). Oddly when I play V2 I wish it was more constrained, when I play PoN I wish it was a bit more dynamic.

In case you are going down the peaceful colonisation route with Abyssinia I have just noticed that the game treats Eritrea as part of Abyssinia when it comes to playing the protectorate and colony cards even though they are seperate colonial areas. That is to say if you are going to declare a protectorate on Abyssinia along with the other requirements (40 CP in capital etc) you will need an average CP of 30 in Abyssinia and in Eritrea. You can see the thread I opened on the AGEOD forum if you are interested.

Fascinating posts Director! Just goes to show I have some real gaps in my historical understanding of this period. After I finish reading the autobiography of Garibaldi I am currently reading (which was inspired by playing the game) I guess I will need to head over to Amazon to locate a decent tome on late 19th Centuary naval history.

thanks for the advice. At the moment I have no province > 35 CP, have spotted a few western provinces under this (so filling that in) and have explorers on the way to discover the Highlands. The lure of not fighting, and gaining that irregular army for my own purposes is really attractive. I think that would make any later war with Egypt/Sudan so much easier to wage.

[loki100]

So lets return to the normal update process as Italy seeks a period of peace and calm in which to digest its recent gains … of course it seeks peace and calm by sending Garibaldi off to visit Libya (home of very irate camels fed up by being shelled by the Italian navy).

As you will see, the search for ‘peace and calm’ ™ is not an easy process.

Anyway:

[CENTER]Industrial Reports[/CENTER]




(I was a bit scatty with screenshots in this period so I’ll revert to the normal bi-monthly indicators with the next update, those two show the end of June 1873).

[CENTER]Population[/CENTER]

More people abandon their rural lives and move to the cities. Other than that, militancy is at near zero, satisfaction is increasing at about 0.4% per turn (and then drops back every time they have to pay their taxes).



[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

So the first breach of peace and calm is the damned Austrians. Still whinging about my trading practices, anyone would think Austria was run by UKIP. We’re in Europe so of course my merchants are selling stuff in N Italy



Obviously this time they were utterly bemused by my reasonable response. More prestige in my goal to overtake France (its not clear in screen but I picked up another 1100 there).
[CENTER]
Colonies[/CENTER]

Dubai is declared an Italian colony.



And I encourage Italians to visit, and create 2 new Gems Pits.

As we will see, this is actually a mistake (or probably more true to say, a wee bit premature)

This means I have another colony in late May. As you can see, rather unplanned, I have also absorbed that area the British were involved with. I am now hoping this does not upset them in any way



Anyway I add my third gems pit. I am going to be awash in gems by 1874 [1]

In early January, Gari, in search of winter sun, arrives for his Libyan holiday



My strategy here is slowly take control of the Western provinces, build colonial structures, forts and depots and then start the process of hunting the rebels down in the eastern provinces.

The first battle is in Sirt where my advance guard (a colonial division) wins an easy victory



To celebrate Dubai becoming Italian, Aden erupts into a massive revolt. Good thing I have a large force already in the region.



Of course the war in Aden also starts with easy victories



Ah, right, I think I need more men, so I send most of the extra units in Djibuti over



That should sort it all out



Right, this is serious (they also now have artillery as a result of that defeat)

Umberto is off to the region. I can spare a corps (hopefully) and he’ll be there by June 1873. Thinking ahead of this war, have a regular corps in the region is no bad idea. If I go to war (when I go …) with the Ottomans again I can repeat the stunt of seizing Jerusalem from the Red Sea.



I also send a small garrison to Zanzibar to secure my control there.

[CENTER]Inventions[/CENTER]

More useful inventions fire.



This creates the means to upgrade a lot of my factories to what I am calling second generation structures. These are mostly quite good, they don’t need that much more Private Capital (PC), do use more of other inputs (good as it stimulates industry and trade) and all seem to generate a unit of prestige per turn. As we’ll see the latter starts to add up to around 30 per turn fairly soon (mid 1874) and in turn that is over 700 prestige per year.

Some useful military ones too



[CENTER]Other people’s problems[/CENTER]

Well it seems as if war has caught on. The Dutch are doing something in Aceh (wherever that is), the Spanish are having a domestic and the British are mobilising for some war they are having in Southern Africa



Diplomatically I want to make Greece like me, so I deliberately set out to buy stuff from them



[CENTER]Prestige at the end[/CENTER]



So my attempt at spreading peace and light has become a bit mired in two colonial wars (ok one was planned) and the Austrians getting upset on a regular basis. This is going to be a theme often repeated in 1873-4.

I also did some modding in the coming period. This gave me the card to play to build the Suez Canal (no other part of the French chain), the ability to build explorers and ended the Russo-Turkish war (I gave the Russians the fort of Kars).


[1] Not true as we will see

[loki100]

Are the English coming to claim your gem mines as compensation for Qatar? Or does the global gem market collapse with the discovery of the diamond fields in Kimberley? Probably both way off the mark.

I see that the Italian track record in colonial warfare remains spotty at best, regardless of whether Gari gets involved personally. I'm sure you'll win in Aden eventually, but it is a bit embarrassing that the natives keep beating up on you when they feel like it.

With all the modernizing and prestige-gaining, and your talk of having France and Russia in your sights (in prestige terms), it sounds like Italy is really coming into its own as a Great Power. Color me impressed.

Gem problem is a total lack of labour force to work the mines. Given all those posts above on the intersection of population and productivity, I really should have checked.

colonial war is rightly rather random. As in the next post, you usually expect to win, but every now and then a battle will go badly against you. I'd have to dig deeper into the game engine than I have any ability to do so to understand just why, but I like that if you are careless with cohesion/stance etc you can stumble into quite a little disaster.

Italy will overtake France in 1874 ... I can guarentee it

As I have no doubt mentioned before it is very interesting to see the differences between the games one of which is the number of times you have been involved in a crises. So far I have had the grand total of none. I'm not sure if this is down to play style luck etc although it is probably a good thing as I would not know what to do with one if one stepped up and slapped me in the face! Still very nice prestige gain there well played.

Regarding Qatar and the British presence this also happened to me from what I have read and seen so far it should be possible to reduce their CP by playing various colonial actions although from what I remember at least in my game the British have Qatar as a protectorate so I am not sure if it is possible to remove that by peaceful means. I guess there is a small chance that this could lead to a crises (would just be my luck if that is the first one I get:happy

I am keeping two of my main armies on the border with them and relations are around -37, but, including the next post, that makes 3 such crises in about 15 months, so I have yet some hope of luring them into attacking me.

Again as in the next post, I slowly start gaining legitimacy (my SOI goes from -10 to -9) so that may also degrade the British interests - so far they have ignored that region so I am starting to move into Kuwait too so as to hopefully lock it down as another part of the new Roman Empire.

From Sir Garnet:

The classic naval theory of commerce raiding, later re-stated by the jeune ecole and splendidly encapsulated by you in one sentence. If vigorously prosecuted it can give an enemy a lot of grief but not disrupt his control of the seas. The trick is in knowing when control of the seas is vital to your war aims and when it is not. After all the Austrians won the naval battle of Lissa without gaining anything strategically from it.

For a good general purpose book on ships and naval war of the period I recommend Ironclads at War: The Origin and Development of the Armored Warship 1854-1891 by Jack Greene and Alessandro Massignani. A decent, readable overview with some interesting chapters on doings in South America, Japan and China.


So the Arabians are giving you serious trouble... not unusual for the period. Just think of Gordon at Khartoum. Here's hoping your prompt response prevents a like outcome.

The Austrians will indeed be 'foxed' by your change in attitude. One can foresee a split in their Foreign Ministry with one third believing the Italians are bumbling amateurs another seeing you as hotheaded, unpredictable fanatics and the last convinced you are machiavellian masterminds playing some fantastically deep game of diplomatic chess. Keep 'em guessing, I say - but if they are willing to give an inch, push them hard. Austria is the only great power from whom I see that you can extort usable concessions. If only they would get into a nice desperate war with Russia. Or the Turks. Or Germany... Ah well, a man can dream.

As for the Russian alliance - very wise, and for solid historical reasons. I am reminded of my last Vic2 game where Germany bullied France and won Alsace-Lorraine, bullied them again and won Franche-Comte (despite France having a Russian alliance the second time. The aftermath of that plunged Russia into a civil war and brought forth the Soviet Union in 1900). I was thinking to myself that what France really needed was to add Austria to her alliance structure and go for revenge... and son-of-a-biscuit-eater, the AI did just that. The combined power of France, the Soviet Union and Austria was stalemated for about 18 months, but when the walls gave in they went all the way down. The North German Federation was completely occupied, and since the AI wouldn't give in to all the peace demands the war stalled for about 5 years. When peace finally happened, France got Franche-Comte and Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania too, the Soviets got Poland back, Austria got a huge chunk in the south and the NGF never recovered great power status. As of 1920 they are a minor sphereling of Austria... Electrical power is currently being produced by hitching Bismarck's spinning body to a generator.

Which is a long way of saying that Russia makes a minor check on Britain I think but a dandy check on Germany... just what you need if you have to take on a German-Austrian alliance. If you have to fight Britain then France may be a stronger ally. But if you can get a Russian alliance, I say go for it.

well I give the Austrians another lesson in the art of diplomacy in the next update - I revert to my more aggressive negotiating techniques and clean up big time.

My diplomatic dream would be a Franco-Russian-Italian alliance, the British I am keeping happy as I am scared of them and that gold mine in Scotland is too valuable to lose. But that alliance would keep the (somewhat divided) Germanic core of Europe firmly in its place. I also think although it won't challenge Britain at sea, it could easily fight them to a stalemate and do some damage to their colonies on the way.

I suggest if you wish to target GB then possibly the following steps need to be prepared for:

Surprise invasion of the British Isles, troops hiding in merchant ships and invading everywhere on the turn you declare war. Seem to remember reading something similar in a book.

Denial of the Mediterranean, invade Gibraltar at the start and land coastal guns next turn. Thereafter any enemy ship passing gets bombarded and probably sunk.

The Indian adventure, ship an army to Aden to deal with rebels then use this to launch the invasion of India. Secure the jewel in the crown, perhaps also South Africa and a counter invasion would be very difficult. It appears most of the value of British colonial possessions is in India, Canada and Australia. The latter two often seem to have few defenders and generally with the cost of the navy GB may not have a very big army.

Mod the game to give yourself some of the disruption decisions to help cause revolts or just send your warships bombarding as you did in Libya? Not sure you can bombard anothers colony?

Alliance with Persia, Afghanistan, Siam, Tibet and China for an attack on GB.

I think the book you mean was the 'riddle of the sands'. If a novel can be said to have caused WW1 it was that. Like the non-existent missile gap in the early 1960s, that provoked a major panic in Britain and led to even more ships beng built to which Germany responded. The novel, if I recall, used as its premise just that sort of sneak attack on Britain at a time when the existing fleet was meant to be deployed somewhere else.

The idea of using Aden as a base to raid into India is very attractive as is grabbing Gibralter coup de main, that would protect Italy from any realistic threat and if I wait (which I will have to) till I have Suez and Egypt under control, it means the war can be fought to some extent on my own terms. Great ideas thank you

This is also the reason why the main swedish north/south railway goes straight through the middle of nowhere, rather than along the coasts where people actually live. (no, I am not bitter, not at all, despite the bloody conservatives seemingly wanting to sabotage any real attempts at getting a decent railroad up north)

I always wondered why it went that way - handy if you have just skied out the middle section of the Kungsleden though. I don't think Conservatives like trains to be honest ....

"As pointless as the Austrian Navy" applied even when Austria had a seacoast. Italy, however, needs one for Empire. Britain, France, Russia . . . all need multiple navies in separate seas. With passage through Suez, Italy needs just one which may remain concentrated and dominate other Mediterranean and Indian Ocean navies.

In my 1880 GC the natives in Tunisia and Libya are proving doughty foes, assisted indirectly by the haughty and competitively jealous attitudes of the Italian commanders, most of whom want a command and reputation crushing natives (Roleplaying alert). I like lots of artillery (including naval bombardment) to soften them up at the onset, and separate mounted to send in pursuit or to block their retreat.

the idea of linking up my naval zones that way is attractive. It gives me the ability to annoy the British but hopefully dodge their main battle fleet. In the next post, the big-G shows how to prosecute a colonial war ... (& 1874 will feature his post-war Mediterranean cruise around the rebel held islands)

[loki100]

[CENTER]Routine Reports[/CENTER]

Industry

At this stage, there are few problems here. In particular, I am using up a lot of manufactured goods (factory upgrading is going on, colonial actions and building up the army) and at the moment all I need is available on the international market. As we’ll see, in 1874, this is a bit of a false optimism on my part and I will need to pay a lot more attention to both the structure of my industry and my trading patterns than I have done at any stage since the 1850s.

One thing I think is a problem here is that slowly as the relevant techs unlock, demand is growing in all the main economies. As far as I can see (and I’ve only looked at France) the AI is not making the move to second generation factories. If so, at some stage I’ll need to spend a bit of time forcing the main players to do so or such global shortages will become first more common and then, potentially, more crippling over the coming years.

Manufactured



The main things in that list is the steady decline in coal, at this stage I wasn’t too worried but that is another good moving into a global shortage. Manufactured goods are leaping around as I consume a lot, build up the stock and then use up those new stocks.

Non-Manufactured



That list is much more stable and much easier to control. Where I letting my stocks run down that is deliberate to save Private Capital for new investment, I am also selling a lot of my opium as exports as again that generates Private Capital for new investments. The few things I have low stocks of (rice, tropical fruits, sugar, tea, tobacco, rum and silks – from left to right) I would like more of but they are not widely available. I think I am supplying enough variation in food types to my domestic market to satisfy demand and slowly raise contentment.

Replacements



I also start filling out my 3 main field armies. I have already ensured they each have balloons, signals and hospitals (as well as engineers). I know want each to be built around 2 combat corps and to have heavy as well as regular artillery regiments. A recent tech I gained seems to have made these more useful on the battlefield.

I’m also adding to my transport fleet as I want the ability to move that large formation in the Red Sea area, Garibaldi’s army and one of the three conventional armies in any one turn. Given how spread out my holdings are, this level of flexibility is fairly essential.

Population



Not too much to say there. Satisfaction is slowly creeping up, militantism is under control and the population is steadily expanding (3rd column from the right on each side of the screen). The only ‘problem’ is that education levels seem sort of stuck (but I haven’t had the card to play for a while) and shifting about quite a lot (big gains in Campania and Lazio, pretty static or even down a little elsewhere).

[CENTER]Colonial Actions[/CENTER]


Libya

I start to push into the western provinces. My goal is to herd the rebels into one province and ideally hit them with Garibaldi’s relatively powerful army. That way I may do enough damage to cost them elements. This is the key as they can absorb other losses due to the game mechanics but lost elements are permanent damage to their strength.

The opening battle, using a colonial division works out a bit better than I expected.



With that victory, Garibaldi moves onto Benghazi. And then commences building a depot, fort and harbour. This will be my main base if I have to invade Egypt from this direction.

Following this, by the end of August, I’ve all but surrounded the rebels



What follows is a sequence of ping-pong as I attack them and cut off their retreat lines. It takes about 3 months and a long sequence of battles. No point in showing these but by the end of November I’ve destroyed 9 elements of their stack.

At which point, Garibaldi moves in for the kill



They may escape westwards but I now have some forts and can bring them to battle fairly easily.

Aden

Here I rather struggled to bring enough force on the rebels to really harm them. But slowly they are contained. I do destroy some elements, but my goal is to remove them from Italian territory.

This is achieved by early October they have retreated outside Italian territory. I’ll leave one colonial division in the border province and ignore them. No real gain to hunting them down as I can repel any incursion back into my colony.



Dubai

If you recall this is out of my designated SOI. However, events fire (slowly) that improve your entitlement to such regions if you do actually take one.



A little bit later a new garrison force arrives, the Naval Guns will give me a degree of control over the entrance to the Persian Gulf.

Now the attentive reader will remember that first I thought my gem pits in this region were going to solve my relative problem with supplying luxuries and then that I found a problem.

Well, the new gem pits in Dubai produce 0. I was actually gaining more gems from the trading posts. With a lot of fussing around, I work out the problem is they lack manpower to operate with any efficiency.



I adopt two solutions. One is to encourage my emigrants to go to Dubai (so hopefully create manpower) and decide to build a railway in the hope the efficiency gain will at least net me some output. That may boost the overall productivity (from a dire 4%) to the level where at least some gems are produced.

In the meantime, the lure to stick my nose into Kuwait becomes rather overwhelming



[CENTER]Austria[/CENTER]

And, as if to show they haven’t learned anything so far, Austria pops up again. And get well and truly slapped down again.



Note the British and the Prussians had a dispute too, which the British seemed to lose. They really need to take lessons from Italy’s elite diplomatic corps.

[CENTER]Discoveries[/CENTER]

Three useful technologies fire.



The first is another that reduces cohesion losses on the move, the second is one of the number that boost population demand. The final one is something I’ve not seen so far, but will increase my population growth.

At the moment, as I am slowing down my colonial expansion, I am allocating a lot of state cash to speeding up research.

Prestige due to my modern industry, colonial gains, domestic cards (sewers and universities) and the idiot Austrians continues to improve. At this rate I should pass France in 1874.



I am now gaining 16 per turn from my new factories (an upgraded shipyard – which I haven’t done yet – is worth 4 PP per turn). ‘Regional decisions’ are things like the expansion of Universities (so basically swapping state cash for prestige).

[loki100]

Wow those Austrians really don't know when enough is enough. Another nice prestige gain which looks like it should guarentee you entry into the 2nd tier of major powers! Quite a turn around if you think how far you have come.

I wish i'd waited to read your post before upgrading my gem mine in Dubai. Very annoying for gem production to actually drop with a 2nd generation structure. Mine is the same issue a lack of middle class and worker population to run the mines. From what i've seen in Italy before every 6 months or so I think an event fires which pushes the peasants from the countryside to the city to fill up the skilled labour. So hopefully your mine production will pick up even without the extra messures you've taken. (I have no evidence to back that up other than observation by the way)

aye, Austria the gift that keeps on giving (at least in terms of prestige). They seem to have learnt and stop acting like a bunch of bawheids since then though. I've invested so much in Dubai with the 2 gem fields etc, so I just have to make the priority for immigrants and hope to gain enough population to fully exploit the resources I have paid for.

Good steady progress!

With the AI in charge I would think you could treat each crisis as a separate issue while a human player would begin to build up a grievance. Here's hoping that, if Austria decides that she has had enough, you have friends enough to back up your diplomacy.

You mentioned that industrial goods production isn't keeping pace with demand and that one solution is to improve factories to a better level. You also mention that some raw materials like coal are becoming scarcer. Will improving factories to a better model cause them to consume more resources and thus bring on a crisis of scarcity?

Its probably a good thing the AI doesn't have that sort of memory - not just that 'X' happened but a more human determination to get its own back later. I'm like that in CK1/2 ... I really hold my grudges till the time comes for payback.

for the most part the 2nd generation plants don't take that much coal, more its more capital to run and they tend to add new resources such as chemicals. Upgraded agriculture really ups your coal use as does a modern navy (not my problem yet) and railroads. So, I do need everyone to move to some degree of improvement or various goods will start to become a real problem. If it comes down to it, I'll write a set of scripts to upgrade 3/4 key plants in each of the majors - they can mostly afford it as they are Capital rich (the AI tends to horde). That should kick the Industrialised economies onto a new level of development.

I'll also check if key coal producers have upgraded their mines. So a bit fiddly but I'm getting better at writing events (I think you do need to intervene to some extent in PoN - its too much of a time investment for it to peter out into a generalised AI collapse).

Solution of scarcity: war -new territories- + colonialism + building in foreign countries

that works if the scarcity is for me only. Here, at least briefly its global. Also unlike a lot of strategy games, PoN leads to an odd relation with your rivals. You want to do better etc, but you need them to be relatively strong. The Ottomans are a good case, I'm going to have at least 1, possibly 2, more wars with them to grab the land I want. Then, oddly, I'd like to see a strong Ottoman Empire keeping my Russian 'friends' at a nice distance and able to prevent any British incursion into the wider region.

Okay, Austria has steadfastly refused to be lured into a trap which would allow you to regain northern Italy, but otherwise they have been very good to you. That's a couple of thousand prestige points over the course of three crises, right?

I'm really impressed with your colonial empire. True, not all of it is functional (who knew you needed people to mine those gems?), but to be fair, what is ever fully functional in Italy? So, you're getting the urge to carouse with the Turks some more. Remind me: do you have a certain period of truce, or can you hack away at them as (and when) you please?

I think the Austrians have given me about 2500 PP over those 3 crises ... which is why I am now more important than France ...

There is a fixed truce period (about 2 years) but I'm of a mind that 1876 is the time to renew our acquitances. If not then I'll wait till the scripted 1878 crisis is out the way. Ideally I'd like to see that happen as it also presents Austria with a larger Serbia and that may be another useful regional ally for me. So if not 1876 then I guess 1879-80. I'm in no real hurry and I do have quite a lot of other demands on my national wealth.

[loki100]

This was a relatively quiet 6 months. The war in Libya was ended by February as the remaining rebels were herded into a trap. Other than that, my interests were expanding the army (1 want 2 infantry corps in each of the 3 main armies), upgrading industrial plants and some low grade colonial activities.

I also did some modding. I gave myself the capacity to build explorers and to start the Suez Canal. I think the lack of explorers is due to a missing line in the event file for the alternative Italian unification mechanism, in theory only France can build Suez but not only are they not interested, they seem to have lost the option at some stage since I last checked.

[CENTER]Standard Reports[/CENTER]

Industry

Manufactures



I’ve added back the information on Private Capital use in production as it does provide a good overview of my total domestic economic activity. As you can see, overall PC is staying high as I actually cannot spend it (on new/upgraded sites) as I am having real problems in sourcing enough manufactured goods. At times I have shut down a lot of my industrial sites that use manufactured goods in an attempt to preserve the stockpiles.

However, by the summer, the situation has become rather serious. The coal shorteage is a worry too, but at least that is still generally available.

Non-Manufactures



Less to note here. I’m running down some stocks (fish, cows and wine as examples) and keeping the others roughly static. Opium fluctuates a lot as I still receive a considerable amount from my trading posts and this varies from turn to turn.

Replacements



I’m still filling in gaps in my main combat armies. As is clear, my reserve manpower is now quite substantial and its hard to make much use of it. The lack of manufactured goods prevents much new build but in truth I don’t want to build the army up much more than it is now. Between the four main armies (one is Garibaldi’s) I have about 9000 combat power, and to that is a number of colonial and garrison forces.

I’m not buying any ship replacements till the ironclad/coal powered ships unlock. I have the tech but the counters are still for 1850-70 paddle power etc.

Population



Again not much to note there. Satisfaction slowly improves, militancy is low. For some reason in those turns, the [color="#FF0000"]the growth rate for the population slowed a little[/color] but the working population (final columns) increased a bit.

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

As in the introduction this was a mostly quiet six months as the remaining rebels in Libya wear quickly destroyed. Of more note, someone stole my rubber trees.



I think the Americans lost colonial control and in the chaos my plantation disappeared. This is the second such theft of Italian property in that region (remember my rice paddies were stolen as well) and, at some, stage I think I need to take full revenge.

More immigrants are sent to Dubai



For the moment, Dubai is my primary target for this option. Hopefully that will enable me to actually gain the benefits of all my investment in those gems.

Africa



This isn’t clear but it is the only area of inland Africa I have discovered. I can’t make Kenya into a colony as too many provinces are unknown and thus, on average, my CP is too low to make any progress. Now I have colonial explorers, I’ll start trying to explore the hinterland and see if that area joins up to my coastal provinces.

I now have 3 explorers but can only have 2 ‘active’ at any one time. As I find, this proves to be very hit and miss and relatively expensive. I originally sent the units to Libya (to explore the Sahara which is one of my colonial targets if I find it), Somalia (to explore the Ethiopian Highlands) and Dubai. The latter I realised was a bit of a waste so I moved it down to Kenya to expand my grip on that wider region.

I keep the navy alert by sinking some pirates



Science



This has resulted from an earlier discovery. At the moment, I am not really short of state funds so see no gain to accepting higher inflation.



The usual mix of a useful military tech (again it means my army is more robust when moving – particularly useful in difficult terrain), one that improves the rate at which my crews gain experience and two more industrial techs (in effect again both give me yet another second generation industrial plant).

Prestige



That is France knocked back to number #5 (ok only by a few hundred points), Russia is the next target (2300 ahead). I think I have to send a nice thank you letter to the Austrians as I reckon those 3 crises gave me about 2500-3000 prestige points.

As you can see, my gradual industrial build up is also leading to a steady growth in the structures prestige (up 8 on the number at the end of 1873).

[CENTER]Next Steps[/CENTER]

The next report, I am back to fussing about supply of key materials, in particular coal and manufactures, with a degree of care and attention I’ve not shown since the 1850s. Beyond that, I carry on developing my colonial penetration in Ethiopia (I found a number of the provinces on the west side I hadn’t really pushed into) in the hope of acquiring a peaceful assimilation.

But I’ll leave you with the big event of the period.



That costs 500 Private Capital (& 35 manufactured goods) and will take 200 turns before its ready. So at 24 turns per year, I’ll have a nice shiny canal sometime in 1883. When it is finished, I’ll gain a nice prestige boost (75 PP) as well as shortening my travel time between Italy and East Africa.

[loki100]

Interesting / worrying situation you have there with the sudden pinch in coal and manufactured goods. I think I am starting to notice this trend in my game as well. For a long time I have been reliant on importing manufacted goods and textiles and supply of both these goods has started to dry up (textiles in particular where demand is now far greater than supply). Have you built many coal mines outside of Italy?

Very jealous that you have the Suez canal underway as I still can't get the decision to work. When it's finished this will obviously give you a significant strategic boost.

I do build my first non-domestic coal mine in this period. I've had little luck with most of my non-national plants. The Spanish seem to have stolen my lumber mill in SW France, the Siamese took my rice field and someone has just nicked my rubber trees. Naturally I will take full revenge for all that, but it is a bit annoying. In truth coal is mostly ok, just sometimes in shortage but Mfg Goods are now a regular problem.

Suez is cheaper than I expected, I imagined it would cost something absurd like 5000+ capital.

aye 500 is not too bad, no worse than upgrading an industrial plant. The 10 years was a bit of a shock though - I think its only a couple in Victoria?

It's interesting to see that the game models increasing scarcity of resources, which is forcing you to re-examine your whole economy, as opposed to the situation in Victoria where you usually start out in pretty straitened situations but then can easily end up with incredi-surd industrial development as your industry keeps getting more and more efficient (I've never tried AHD, so I don't know if that would impact the economic model).

On the other hand, it's also somewhat off-putting, as the economic micro-management required is pushing my 'least favorite' button rather fervently. I keep circling this behemoth of a game, but if it requires constant tinkering with the game files to keep it on the tracks, it might not be for me - at least till a new patch arrives.

Anyway, nice to see the Suez Canal and a job well done in Libya. Now, is there anything worth getting - resource-wise - out of Libya, or did anything of value perish while you were busy shelling the camels earlier?

I think there are two parts to the writing events and scripts. Over time I think most of the worst gaps in the game scripts will be sorted, Kensai and Sir Garnett's PBEM group are doing sterling work with the 2 Phils in that respect and feeding not just bugs or gaps, but scripted solutions into AGEOD. I'd guess that over the patching process that will resolve most of the problems say around Italian Unification.

The second batch is more to making a particular game make sense. I think in PBEM this will always be needed - say to impose the terms of a peace agreed between 2 players. In SP, its a case of adding a small bit of dynamism to keep your emerging world realistic in what is otherwise a rather rigid and deterministic game. Its a matter of taste and there is a case for saying you should play the game as presented, but I'd rather twiddle a bit for narrative and to make this 19C realistic in terms of what is developing.

I had thought that 10-year construction time was far too long, but... the Suez Canal actually took that long to build.

Ah, well... I suppose that will give you something to look forward to.

Now to add the rest of Egypt to the Canal Zone.

Well it does mean I cannot now give up before 1883 - I really really want to send a ship down the canal. Next war with the Ottomans should net me Jerusalem, maybe the Levant. I'll then let the canal finish (in case war with Egypt sees its destruction) and then, yes, I think Egypt really belongs to Italy - especially as Alexandria, according to the game engine, is 100% Italian.

In Vicky 2 there is a good solution: you discover a tech and you have inmediatly a +X% in coal -for example-, so during the game any country improve the total resources.

Thats one of the differences - its odd (& a little confusing) as to what works similarly and what is different between PoN and Victoria. Rails have a similar impact in both, ie a rail, or an improved rail, improves base productivity. But here an upgraded coal pit (& you need to upgrade each individually) costs more to operate but pro-rata gives you more output

[loki100]

This is again a quiet six months, my focus was on exploration, Ethiopia and the problem of securing manufactured goods. Oh and keeping Garibaldi busy.

[CENTER]Regular Reports
[/CENTER]
The main issue here is the lack of Manufactured Goods. All of sudden they are in demand across the globe. So I opt to overpay to ensure I can gain what I need.



I also seek to sort this out by prioritising mfg goods plants for my upgrades



I also decide to address my coal problem by building a pit. This is less critical as usually its available but I would like more supplies under my control. I can’t in France, but the option to do so in Switzerland exists.



Oh and at the end of the year, I start building my very first electrical factory



Manufactures

All the above feeds into, or is the result of fluctuations in these tables:



So coal stabilises after a low point, everything else is under control. I seem to have forgotten to capture these tables for October.

Non-Manufactures



Again, little to say there. Its under control, I can run the stocks down as I can always either restart domestic production or buy most of the things I really need.

Population



Contentment is slowly edging up, militantism varies a little but is under control. Population growth (3rd column from the right) is rather variable, education % is still falling (I think as my expenditure, which I cannot really control is not keeping up) and the working population is mostly expanding.

Replacements etc



This remains pretty steady but note I have a new form of heavy guns and an upgraded communication unit. I have plenty of potential reserve companies if and when I need them but there is no real need to convert them into a standing army at the moment.

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

The war between Russia and Turkey ended (by a script I wrote) and the Russians gained the fortress of Kars in the peace deal.



Colonies

Anyway, after a few attempts one of my exploration parties finally find something in the Ethiopian Highlands



This may allow me to gain the overall CP I need to declare a protectorate when it is finally revealed.

And the earlier discovery in the Sahara is revealed



Sounds a nice place, at least later on some iron appears there.

My rail line in Dubai is completed and has some impact on the productivity of my gem mines



But the big event is in Ethiopia. In an earlier post I mentioned that a few of the western provinces I’d ignored and not pushed my colonial penetration up to 35%. Well I’ve been doing merchants and bribes to rectify this.

It now looks like I am on the way to a peaceful absorption. The lack of fighting, plus the gain of their large irregular army are potentially massive gains.



Garibaldi’s naval tour.

One thing that has been annoying me is that the 3 island groups in the E Med (Crete, Dodecanese and Cyprus) are overrun by rebels (against the Ottomans). Since the big G is bored he is sent on a tour of these troubled regions to spread peace and light, and see what, if anything I can grab from the Ottomans.



In the event, I gave Crete to the Greeks (by script), kept the Dodecanese as a base and gave Cyprus back to the Ottomans.

Inventions



So a useful mixed bag. The first reduces the impact of attrition on movement for naval vessels. The second gives me another new generation of artillery. Next two allow even more factory upgrades and the last gives me a new form of industry (electrical bits).

Prestige



So I edge ahead of France in #4 and am only 2000 short of Russia. Note my regular per turn PP from structures is now 27, up from 24 six months ago (mainly as I upgraded one of my shipyards).

[loki100]

Lots of prep work, I see. You've obtained the mfg. goods, since you're willing to pay a premium. Does the AI do that as well, or is your supply pretty much assured as long as you can afford to pay extract?

I think it did in the 1850s. I remember when I was using that trick to buy coal and I'd get 1/2 turns where a lot would flow my way then it would drop back a lot. So I guessed the AI was matching my higher offer. But then flows vary as national states alter how much they are keeping domestically so I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct.

But yes, this sequence was probably more interesting to play than to read about to be honest PoN does seem to have periods of focus on the domestic economy and, as here, there is no real crisis, just allocation and re-allocation of scarce resources and juggling the various options. At its simplest Mfg Goods = rails in the colonies=more output of luxuries; Mfg Goods = upgraded factories=prestige (& more Mfg Goods if that is the factory type) & of course are key to new builds (I'd like 3/4 of those electrical goods plants as I suspect they will sell well for some time). Now there are other constraints (mostly Private Capital) but in this period that isn't my bottleneck (& I can always close off agricultural production for a turn or two to free that up).

When I starting playing, in truth I paid no attention to the process of prestige harvesting. In part I was sure I wasn't going to 1920 but mainly it seemed an issue beyond what I could bring myself to think about. It is now my focus. So crudely if an action yields more prestige it is worth paying attention to, if it doesn't then I am asking myself why do it. Sometimes you of course need to be a bit indirect in that you lay the basis for prestige gain by doing something else.

So if you look at the last screen I am now picking up 90 PP per turn, Russia is on +29 per turn, so I'll close the 2000 gap in about 35 turns. Now its not quite linear in that they or I could pick up a windfall from a crisis (Russia seems to get into a lot of these and mostly does pretty well), but I think that shows the difference between being, in PoN terms, an advanced modern state and one that is powerful but backward.

I still need to find an hour or so to go over the majors and check if they are upgrading to level 2 industry. I suspect they are not. If so I'll give them a boost by some scripts. This may sound strange but in this game you gain from strong AI countries (hence my trading patterns for eg), so I'd rather boost both supply and demand internationally. If the consequence is to improve their prestige gain rates I can cope with that.

Just Kars? Seems a tad paltry for a Russia that looked set to occupy constantinople.

I'm not sure they wer going to finish the war to be honest. The AI has a tendency to these long winded wars that never get resolved. I really want the 1877+ event chain to fire, so I decided to intervene and stop this war. Since Kars (& Batum) were regular Russian demands in the era I felt that was quite an appropriate gain for them.

Wow you are getting some serious prestige gain per turn! I think I remember somewhere earlier on in your AAR you mentioned that it would be impossible to overhaul Britain I think that has got to be a definate possibility now.

Have you built out all your manufactured goods factories? Something I forgot about were the furniture and canned food factories which also produce a decent amount of M. goods. Canned food especially always seems to be widely available on the world market. If you are competing for M Goods (although looking at your screenshots looks like you are now ok) perhaps putting a couple of extra trade fleets in the North American and North Sea trade boxes will also boost your chances of competing for scarce goods.

Not sure about the UK. I did a rough calculation and that would take about 2000 turns at the current rate. Now if I can gain prestige off events, wars and crises that becomes just about imaginable, if they lose a big war late game.

I'm in two minds about whether more trade fleets or paying the +25% are the best strategies. Not least the fleets cost Mfg Goods and although the worst is over, that is still my bottleneck good. I'll review after my next tussle with the Ottomans as that could see a longish period of peace (or to take my veteran army and attack Austria ... nah)

This looks great! I read this thread to help me understand the game better. It works!

thank you, glad it is useful ... and indeed, welcome to the forums

[loki100]

1875 was much like 1874. Most of my energy was on sorting out economic bottlenecks and exploring the regions linked to my existing colonies. To liven things up we have a short war. I also make my mind up about the Ottomans. Come 1876 we’ll be at war again. I think with my high NM (still up around 140-150) I can beat them quickly, take what I want and leave the field clear for the Russians in 1878 and the key Balkan independence events. The latter matters as I really fancy an anti-Austrian alliance with Serbia.

Anyway, first things first.

[CENTER]Regular Reports[/CENTER]

Manufactures



Few things to note there. I’m still having intermittent shortfalls of Manufactured Goods so Private Capital is proving hard to use. I’m steadily using more PC in domestic production (final column) mainly due to upgrades and reopening some agricultural sites. At the start I’d forgotten to increase the sales of luxury goods to reflect increased productions – hence the briefly rather high stocks.

Two new things opened in this period. An upgraded shipyard (remember these are the only structures that yield prestige in their first stage) that yields considerable prestige per turn. And my coal pit in Switzerland.



Turns out the inefficient Swiss are on strike. They really need to adopt Italian work ethics. I’ll get my extra coal when they can be bothered to return to work.

Non-Manufactured



Less to say there, I’m running stocks down to save on PC but I have the capacity in most of those columns to add or subtract supply according to my own whims.

Military



Very little to say here so I’ve just shown the position at the end of June. I’m struggling to interpret the ship models etc (not helped as the image on the counter doesn’t change) but I will allow the fleet to repair in the next six months in any case. It will be needed, even if just to patrol and scout the Ottoman coasts.

Population



Equally that is churning along nicely. Contentment in the mid-90%s, Militancy pretty low. Still seems as if [color="#FF0000"]rate of population expansion[/color] is dropping a little (3rd column from the right) but the working population is on the increase (final column). Education level shows some improvement but I think that may be more related to drops in total population to be honest.

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Discoveries



Not the most exciting two options to be fair. But it will mean my currently being built Electrical factories will be more efficient when they are ready.

Colonies

Persian Gulf:

Over in Dubai, some more immigrants arrive and slowly, those gem pits become more efficient. Equally, Kuwait will be formally placed under Italian protection. This of course means it needs to be defended against potential Ottoman aggression in case of war (ie I need to invade Iraq to protect it)



But the big news is that Ethiopia is now an Italian protectorate. I am looking forward to all those nice colonial/native regiments and a peaceful entry into my new state.




Oh, oh well my new Ethiopian allies can deal with them … Oh? It seems that none have actually joined with me. So I send some of my colonial formations to secure key sites and Umberto’s army moves in on those ungrateful rebels.



This is not going to be quick, not helped by all that unexplored terrain. I may have to bring Garibaldi out of retirement.

Actually, and for reasons I never understood, a few turns later they offered peace and the war just ended (and their army disbanded).



To the south, my explorers make their way to the incorrectly named Lake Victoria. It is of course really Lago Garibaldi.



And a bit later I find a route from Ethiopia to Somalia



Prestige sees me making more progress to catch up with Russia



At the end of this period I checked the economies of the other industrial powers and none had upgraded any factories to level 2. So by script, I upgraded 10 for France, UK, Prussia and the USA and 5 for Belgium, Netherlands, Austria and Russia. A bit of a mix across the range of types but concentrated on manufactured goods plants.

[loki100]

Good solid progress. That dalience with the Ethiopians looks like another another of those strange "features" that seem to crop in the game from time to time.

More Ottoman slapping eh. I am almost beginning to feel sorry for them :unsure:. I'm assuming your relations haven't recovered with them since the last time you Tangoed or has their military power crashed so far that they have fallen below China?

Regarding the ship image thing I think I read somewhere on the multiplayer thread that the ship images were not updating but the underlying elements were correct (or something along those lines) hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I can comment!

I think you are right that the image doesn't update (all the time), so I decided to go ahead with replacing my losses, hoping that it would be with more modern ships.

As we will see in 1876, I don't think the Ottomans have recovered from being attacked by me and then the Russians, so I suspect they are too weak to appear on the list.

I do, in 1876, find some of the Ethiopian army ready to help me out, the rest is running wild along the Nile refusing to accept Italian rule.

I assume that the Ethiopian shennigans are due to some kind of inter Ethiopian war that you rudely interrupted with your takeover, leaving one of the sides somewhat confused about what to do since their enemy was suddenly replaced

On the colonial side, and besides that big lake most likely named after Gari innumerable victories , all looks good. Kuwait looks a liability, though, in the context of a Ottoman war ( suposing that they have anything worth the name of military, that is ), unless you create a Persian gulf army ( or you already have it ? Not sure ... ). That said, it would be interesting to see Ol'Gari back to Arabia ... maybe even marching from the Euphrates mouth to Istanbul On the Otto war itself, I agree with the timing, since it appears that you and Russia made short work of them and it should not take long for other parties to sense the smell of blood :/

I've got one regular army corps in my colonial region (I use the local fleet to ferry it around) so have something that can probably conquer southern Iraq at best and certainly hold Kuwait at least. In the update after this one, everyone seems to be keen on someone's blood ...

This. Is. Too. Mindboggling.

I'd like to come up with some witty remark, but the simple fact that your game universe allows this comment to even be conceived is causing my brain to short out.

Invading Iraq is always a good idea which never turns out wrong for anyone. Least of all for a Western imperialist power (like, say, Britain in WWI). While you're at it, can you install a [s]puppet[/s] erm, friendlier regime to really safeguard Kuwait's safety for eternity? Otherwise you might be forced to defend Kuwait's sovereignty in perpetuity as the dastardly Ottomans keep piling on as soon as you declare another completely justified war on them.

well I have further proof of Swiss inefficiency in the next update ...

I think I can force the Ottomans to disgorge Iraq but I don't really want it, I have too much land already to maintain control if I faced several major revolts at the same time. I'm going after prestige and key locations.

You don't need to worry about the Ottomans . . . Just send in a few drone strikes!

I do have balloons ... do they count?

[loki100]

The second half of 1875 saw a false sense of security hanging over Europe. Unknown to others, the leaders of three of the major European nations were plotting war with their neighbours.

In Italy, plans were laid for a second Ottoman war. Tensions over Garibaldi’s island tour and in the Persian Gulf were such that Italy decided to seek a decisive resolution to all remaining disputes with her Eastern neighbour.

For the moment though, the Italian press was full of reports about Italy’s economic miracle (often contrasted with the ongoing strikes in neighbouring Switzerland). The lack of a work ethic and the inefficiency of this backward country was seen as proof of the success of what became known as the Italian System. Further proof, if any was needed came from the gradual exploration of East Africa.


[CENTER]Regular Reports[/CENTER]

Manufactured



I’m still having some problems acquiring manufactured goods which is one reason why the Private Capital is staying relatively high. Even so, I am managing a sustained process of upgrading industrial and agricultural units, hence the steadily increasing per turn (right hand column) usage of PC.

I also build a third electrical factory:



Non-Manufactured



Not much to say there, I can pretty much juggle stocks and production as I need and keep the population fed and well supplied with common goods.

Military



I decided regardless of where I was in the naval technology cycle I had to repair the fleet for service against the Ottomans. I’m also filling out some gaps in my army OOB, in particular a shortage of specialist cavalry formations (I have plenty that are organic to the main infantry corps).

Population



Main thing to note there is that over this period there has been a relatively large population growth (and resulting small dip in educational levels).

Should add in this respect, the University cards do add to that province's educational levels. There is no clue in the tooltip etc but you can see the outcome in Tuscany and Lazio above - they both gained +4 education and those were the provinces where I had played the cards.


[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Inventions



It was the unlocking of the two on the left that made me decide it was time to allow the navy to repair and expand it a little. Business schools make my exports a bit more competitive (useful in an era of global over supply of many goods), not sure what the reserve invention adds. I think it is a new type of infantry corps (I do wish that the PoN research model was just a bit easier to navigate from invention to consequence).

Colonies

East Africa



That is a bit larger scale than I usually use but I think provides a good overview of my dominance in East Africa. As you can see, I am threatened by the evil British and the Portuguese, but I think I can secure a dominant position all to the east of the Rift Valley. My explorers are actively filling in the dark brown bits and my traders are following behind (supported by missionaries taking up useful positions). I am no where near taking colonial control over the hatched areas inland from Zanzibar (I suspect mainly due to undiscovered provinces).

Diplomacy

In recognition of Italy’s growing power in the Persian Gulf, Persia, wisely, seeks to be our friends



Prestige



Prestige continues to accrue as I chase down Russia for the #3 place. My industry is really pushing my score up and, for some reason, I am the most social of nations. Well in that spirit I will visit the Ottomans very soon.

Now I think I can win just by current trends. There are 44 years (ie 1056 turns) left and I am gaining prestige at a rate of 60 per normal turn. So that will give me another 66,360 at game end, the UK is gaining at 28 per turn. So by my calculations



Which in game turns is a victory. But to win it properly I need double the UK’s prestige, in effect 166,000 or so.

Well at least it looks feasible.

Anyway, 1876 is going to see Europe substantially shaken up.

[loki100]

Oh exciting, can't wait to see the powder-keg explode

yep, most of Europe is at war with someone pretty soon, and Prussia seem to have CBs against most of the globe by mid-1877

It strikes me that a war with the Ottomans might be ill-timed if it distracts from your ability to capitalise on other European wars. Hopefully the Porte is in too weak a shape to put up much of a fight, but it would be a pain to see the Austrians dragged into a war with Prussia or Russia while you're busy elsewhere.

That is the gamble, but I have an alternative. If I can finish off the Ottomans quickly, my NM will be very high (= highly effective army) and Prussia is at war with GB. So just maybe they won't back Austria at a time when I will have a top class army ... becomes rather tempting

You know, I had to read through the update twice (read it hurriedly yesterday, failed to comment) before I spotted that. Well played sir, a groaner worthy of your talents.

Another round with the reeling Ottomans awaits, and we'll have supporting acts as well? My, it will be a veritable festival of warfare - a 19th century Woodstock, if you will. Minus the love and peace, of course.

yep love and peace are on the back burner for a while. But if you want the superb deployment of bad puns, you really need to read this

Europe at war sounds like it might open up some interesting possibilities. Is this a sign that the alliance system is fracturing?

Other than using Garibaldi as the 19th Centuary equivalent of a thermo nuclear device are you planning on a multi theatre campaign again? I definately concur that those cavalry divisions you purchased are extremely useful when used as independant forces. You may also have them but I also found having some independant infantry brigades very useful either as escorts, garrison forces or for sweeping up undefended provinces.

I also liked that you snagged Kuwait (never occured to me) so I think I might have to appropriate that idea and pretend it was mine :happy:

Next update will be domestic/colonial and then I'll cover the war. But the basic plan is as before, 3 armies in Europe, Gari in the Near East and my new option of a corps pushing to Baghdad from Kuwait. Actually I should have built more divisions, precisely for the sort of actions you mention.

Actually, the prestige income from shipbuilding and the largest steel and arms factories, among others, encourages overinvestment and might be thought of as (in)vested interests.

Italy's replacement pool looks seriously empty - not enough to cover more than movement attrition and a skirmish. As a contemporaneous Brazil, which is smaller militarily, I try to keep at least a bloody battle's worth of replacements for peacetime readiness - 30 for Line infantry (for 300 hits) and commensurate numbers of other replacements, heavy on supply since they take special hits . This is lighter than I would be if Brazil had corps, since with divisions being the largest formations there is more element destruction or loss of a whole division while corps tend to just get hollowed out and need more replacements.

Obviously there are other uses for resources, but in any case it is good to have a peacetime readiness standard for ready replacements. Cases when I would avoid replacements would be for almost obsolete ships while awaiting the new generation to be open for construction of new units and replacement elements.

==================
When colonial advancements yield troops they are not necessarily located in that colony. Often they are in unexplored regions. Use the F5 to get a global view, or the F2 force list, or just use the E/R cycle keys to find hidden units. These may be unsupplied and need quick orders to get them to safety.

Note that unexplored status does not prevent plotting units inside out, or units outside through. Units can also pop into such territories when they lose the right to be in the region they are located and are teleported to your territory. I've send supply wagons into the brown to help such unfortunate troops out without perishing totally from attrition.

==================

To help the Ottomans recover and be useful after you are done with them, have hundreds of points of spare warscore not used for claims in order to get good relations after peace due to your merciful terms, and build them railroads and depots while occupying their territory - they will make use of it later.

==================
Invention muzzle-loading rifled naval cannon means new ships can be armed with them, but old construction is not upgraded.

Thanks for that, helpful as ever. I actually do find some Ethiopians hidden in the mountains, fortunately before they started to starve.

I'm ok for replacements in this war. The number of bloody battles is very few, so having 2-3 at any time is plenty. I think if I get it into a big European war I really would need to stock up in advance though. In truth, in the last Ottoman war, I needed more as indeed my weakened units ended up costing me dear in longer term rebuilding.

edit - one thing I notice in this war is my attrition and cohesion losses on movement are a lot lower - I think that reflects the cumulative impact of all those techs I have acquired since 1872.

[loki100]

I’m going to keep with six month reports despite the second Ottoman-Italian war. In part I want to keep more of an eye on domestic and colonial matters than I did first time around and in part this campaign is much more straightforward (well it is up to April 1877 which is where I am in-game).

What I will do though is to split each six month report over two posts. One on non-war things, the other covering the campaign. So this one will be presented as if there wasn’t a war on.

[CENTER]Standard Reports[/CENTER]


Manufactured



Things mostly under control there, some more upgrades done (hence the steadily rising PC usage). In late June my first electrical good factory opens, the small (2) production of manufactured goods is welcome as well.

Non-manufactured



In this period, not much to say there, stocks fairly steady and all I need either available domestically or by trade.

Population



Now to be honest that confused me. Especially the radical drop in satisfaction.

So it took a bit of digging around, but I am now responsible for the needs of the citizens of the Ottoman provinces I am capturing. Since I wasn’t factoring this in, I had started to badly miss meeting food and common good requirements.

My response, as we will see in the next 6 month report is to open up all those agricultural sites I closed in the 1850s and after unification. I then start importing both food and common goods as much as I can.

The result is my balance of payments goes negative but I am making +1300 PC per turn on domestic sales.

Military



Even with the war on, that is very much under control. I’d even started to build a fresh mountain infantry corps and another cavalry division too.

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Colonial

Well I found quite a lot of the Ethiopian army when my explorers discovered the last portion of the Ethiopian Highlands. Not as much as I’d hoped for (in total about 500 power) but I disperse them around and brigade them with my colonial divisions.



Over in Dubai, things are even weirder. Sending out the colonists improves my Gem production but seems to make the province change from a colonial status to being Italian.



Elsewhere I continue to make discoveries




Immediately, missionaries and traders are sent into the Sahara to take up advanced positions before the new regions are ready for full Italian rule.

Diplomacy.

Well this was quite a war like period. First I find that Prussia and Britain had started a war (Prussia has had an awful lot of diplomatic spats)



And Russia goes to war with Moldavia



So I really have to join in



Now, that Prussian war offers an interesting opportunity. Will they back their Austrian ally while at war with someone else?

In response, a man with an impressive beard arrives to lead Italy ..



Prestige



So I am now only 100 behind Russia, so I guess it’s a case of who does the best out of our current wars. Note also my regular gains from industry is now up to 38.

I guess, given their respective NMs, that Prussia is winning its war with GB.

[loki100]

Don't forget, in Rome you have vestment interests.

I hope the war goes well for you. It is always easier to get into one than out, so I hope you have a clear picture of what you want to achieve. One may hope that the Russians are occupied in Moldavia and won't be tempted to take advantage of the Ottoman distraction as they did the last time.

How on Earth could Prussia have a CB on Scotland? I thought the terms of Union reserved foreign policy for the Union parliament.. one hesitates to think of Prussia rolling into Edinburgh while England picks its teeth and says, "Oh, and you want some help from me now, do you?"

As a (fictional) great thinker on war once said, “Thrift in the attainment of a goal is of primary importance. Expenditure of men and gold is as fatiguing to a state as hard labor is to a man. Therefore wage war only for great gain, and stop when you have won.”

well at least in this time line, the man in the skirt-in-rome, has no international treaties protecting his remaining temporal power

obviously Prussia are in the 'better together' camp. I'll try to avoid discussion of the Scottish independence debate as (a) its of extremely limited interest to most of the world and (b) its contentious. But at the moment the big bogey person being raised by the Unionists is that an independent Scotland would have to renegiate 10,000 international treaties or we will be invaded by N Korea (most of the 10,000 being rather out of date). Its good to see that PoN carries such a stark warning of the danger of independence.

I'm not sure where that CB came from but non-existant states do exist in the diplomacy screen (all the Italian minors are stlll there) and I think the game engine picks opponents at random (or its a consequence of the anglo-prussian war), later on the Prussians get a CB on the Pope (they spend most of this period having diplomatic hissy fits with anybody and everybody) and I know he has no land left.

I'm clear as to my war goal - Jerusalem. This surrounds Egypt and gives me a route to link up my Empire till the Suez canal is ready. But I need a lot of warscore to gain it.

I think I remember that thinker.

Anyway, loki, any idea how Scotland would've broken free from Britain? Does PON have nationalist rebels à la EU3? And how on earth could the British AI have allowed them to get away with it? Surely Britain would've been able to muster some troops for the domestic housekeeping required to keep the Scots pacified?

Regarding your non-national territory on the Persian Gulf - does that break things for you, where you can no longer increase your influence until you declare a formal colony? Or is that province now truly a part of Italy, can you build now build non-colonial improvements there?

's Only fair you would join in on this whole warring gig. I mean, all the cool kids are doing it, can't let Italian prestige down by sitting things out like some kind of international wallflower.

In Dubai, its essentially in my favour. I can now build much more there (like a much larger fort) but obviously till I sort out the population there is no point adding much more development. The negative is it is no longer a destination for emigration but I can still send emigrants to the other close by provinces.

and yes, at the moment, its only the square boring states (like Austria) in Europe who are not up to their necks in one war or another. Even the Dutch are at it - still at war in Aceh.

Yep. As we all learn in high school, nothing bad ever comes from yielding to peer pressure.

Exactly, everyone else has a war, why shouldn't you ... perfectly reasonable, I mean look where that got Europe in 1914.

Nice to see you joining the war band wagon!

With your recent acquistion of the Dodecanese I'm guessing the main objectives of this campaign for you are Adana and perhaps Palestine (not sure now that I think of it whether Adana is included in Palestine or not)? From my own game that set of objectives is well over 200 WS so you will likely have to occupy most the Ottoman Empire to shake those free? After the extended blood letting last time I am interested to see how successfully the Ottomans have managed to recuperate.

Something that has been puzzling me for a while is why you have such a massive stockpile of coffee (459) mainly as it at least in my game has always been such a sought after resource? Oh and while I am in question machine gun mode did you manage to remove the British influence from Abu-Dhabi?

Good luck with the war (although by the sounds of what you have let slip so far it looks like this one is well in hand)

I'm going to leave Adana with the Ottomans. It has no useful resources and is a ready source of a CB if I feel I need a third Ottoman war at a later stage (to save bits from falling into the wrong hands of course). I am, though, thinking over Pristina as it has a coal stock. I'll see where the WS is after I grab my goals before deciding if I can justify a scripted change for that region.

Coffee in this game seems to be in common supply. I have an updated plantation in Brazil that generates masses as well as lots of trading posts in E Africa, but globally it is a well produced item.

The British stil have their consulate at Abu Dhabi but have made no move to contest my dominance, so I'm just keeping an eye on it - I find I need to do things like chief bribing to keep my CP up (I guess reflecting their residual influence) but other than that its remaining a normal part of my Empire.

The search for WS is indeed going to force me to near complete occupation -which is a problem given the economic impact discussed above.

Do you notice any significant penalty from colonizing out of your area? Since I've colonized everything historical in my US game, I am kind of tempted to move colonize a bit of Dubai or Africa just because.

Not really that I've noticed. I don't gain prestige for those areas (although slowly the SOIs are moving in my favour) but I am extracting resources and no one else is contesting those regions, so I think the impact is less negative than maybe the manual implies. So I'd do it, not least to secure either key resources or to build a network of bases.

"Peer pressure" is such a harsh term: I prefer to think of it as "Learning valuable social skills".

Anyway, loki, when you mentioned the arrival of an impressive beard (man attached), I was sure this was the beginning of yet another Glorious Garibaldi Tale[sup]tm[/sup]. I was wrong, but oh my Italy is gifted with a deep pool of very manly beardy figures.

I still think that is the best beard that Italy has produced so far ... it really is a ... err ... large, yes large

That's a damn teaser you just pulled here Loki, you're at war but you're only showing the non-fighting part of it. Aaaarh! Show us the grand maneuvers, the glorious conquests, the desolate battlefields!

On another subject, that's a very manly beard.

Also, still waiting on the glorious showdown with Austria.

well here's the opening war update ... and yes, I think I have to chance my arm on Austria next, esp if I exit this war with a very high National Morale and Prussia remains at war with GB (so hopefully doesn't back Austria). In combination, that must give me sone chance.

[loki100]

And so to war. I wanted to wait till the winter snows had lifted from the Balkan mountains and had pre-positioned most of the army. A weakness is I have enough transport capacity to move one of these forces at any one time so that meant the two naval landings had to be staggered.

The basic plan called for 3 armies, of around 2500pwr each to march on Istanbul.



In effect two armies were in Tirana, 1 would press onto Thessaloniki (note this is no longer fortified for some reason), the other to go via Bulgaria and secure my flanks. As well as to take Sofia as a secondary supply route (I’ve marked the depots on the map).

A third army would land at Kavala, intercepting any Ottoman reinforcements and maybe allowing me an early start on the siege of Adrianople (still a level 3 fort).

Note the little gold star below VE's formation - that indicates he is the CinC for this theatre.



In addition, I have a corps and a colonial division in Kuwait who can advance into Iraq.


At worst, this may pin down some Ottoman units, at best I believe that both Basra and Baghdad will make the Ottomans lose NM (no particular gain to me).

Finally, G is ready to reprise his moves in the Levant. He won’t be in action till late May as the naval landing at Kavala is my priority.



Note he has less specialist guns but a lot more potentially independent divisions as I suspect I will need to leave elements behind to secure my supply lines. The formation with G is a Guards corps of nearly 1200 power in itself. Equally again note he has a little gold star - so N Africa (where he currently is) is a different 'theatre' to the Balkans.

The opening phase sees the Albanian armies marching unopposed across the mountains, veterans of the last war being surprised at the lack of resistance. Vittorio Emanuele took Thessaloniki by the end of April. His more experienced units were surprised, and very relieved, to face no repeat of the brutal fighting around this city that had marked the first war.



By late June, Italian units were besieging Adrianople and had occupied Gallipoli, preparing to deal with the weak Ottoman resistance along the Danube and to occupy Burgas.



In Iraq, the main Ottoman field army had been encountered at Najaf and was driven back despite outnumbering Umberto almost 2-1.



Basra was quickly secured, but it was clear that Baghdad was well defended. For the moment, Umberto was ordered to screen the city, keeping a large Ottoman army tied up in its defence.




By June, Garibaldi was active in the Levant



This had taken a lot longer as the fleet was low on cohesion after moving the main armies to Tirana and then supporting the Kavala landings. Thus it had had to recuperate for several turns before Garibaldi could be moved.

The end of June was marked by a series of quick victories:




Vittorio Emmanuele had pushed across the Dardenelles and routed one of the few remaining Ottoman field armies at Cannakkale. A battle essentially decided on the opening cannonade and where both the number and quality of the Italian artillery was decisive.



So by mid-summer, the more excitable parts of the Italian press were talking about achieving a bloodless victory and capturing all of the Ottoman Empire. Schemes to unite the two Romes abounded. Italy’s real war aims remained shrouded in mystery but were much more modest (Jerusalem = encirclement of Egypt and a quick route between the parts of the Empire).

In game terms, it is pretty clear the Ottomans have not recovered from the beating by first the Italians and then the Russians in the earlier wars. They do not appear on the F11 screen so I guess their overall military power is very low and from the combat results I suspect their National Morale is low (mine is 136 by June).

However, the two big forts (Adrianople and Istanbul) still stand, and there maybe more major Ottoman armies (or they may be raising fresh troops), so its not all over yet.

[loki100]

I think it is telling of this campaign that only the rebels in Sliven actually managed to inflict any casualties on you! Don't want to tempt fate but it looks like this one is going to be a walk in the park.

Looks like the hardest part of this campaign will be the reduction of the main fortresses and even there I'm guessing you won't be facing the same garrison levels as you did in the last war. From what I am seeing in my game if you can wait for a few months the capture of Constantinople on its own will eventually be enough to get you your war aims.

I think there are 3 key things that are different. First the Ottoman armies are much more based around militia, second my artillery is inflicting fearsome damage in the ranged combat phase and lastly their very low NM means a lot of their units fail their morale checks in the assault phase. So I have a huge quantitative advantage and am often inflicing losses for no damage.

Having said that, as others have pointed out below, I want this over before the Prussians and the Brits kiss and make up - I think this is my best chance for a 1-1 with Austria, but its going to take some setting up

By the looks of it, you will indeed be able to roll the Ottomans up before the Prussians finish their war with GB. That last battle was a slaugher for the Ottomans, losing as they did all their cavalry and artillery in the bombardment while failing to inflict any casualties on your forces.

It remains to be seen how you'll fare against the Austrians though, who presumably have greater tech than you've been up against lately.

I fear this war is poor training for what I'll face with the Austrians. My hope is if I can redeploy, mobilise the reserves etc (in fact in-game my next action will be to order mobilisation ), I can hit them with my NM stilll over or around 140 from this war. That will give me quite a bonus, plus, hopefully being able to quickly overrun the Po region and then fight on the defense for a while.

Going swimmingly so far! If you can afford the turns for sieges to do their work in Adrianople and Constantinople, you might get out of this war with minimal bloodshed (on your side, of course, which is the only side we care about).

Can you stick that corps in Iraq outside of Baghdad for a siege/screen, or will that risk losing lots of troops due to supply issues? I'm assuming the desert is a more hostile place than the green Balkans.

PoN doesn't have that extreme weather system of RUS, so as such, sitting in the desert in the middle of the summer is no big deal as long as I stay in supply, so yes I can screen Baghdad, if they stay to defend that is one of their few armies out of commision, if they move, I take another of their key cities.

I read these AAR's and everything seems fine, and then I get a line like "Then i had to write a script because the AI crashed the world economy..." and I realize why I never bothered iwth this game

The game in general is a diamond in the rough with a lot of ambitous game mechanics and in an ideal world you shouldn't have to step in to make changes but it does have an excellent and flexible scripting system which enables you to get around those rough edges. Obviously that is not everyones cup of tea though

As in an earlier discussion about this, I think there are two separate issues. First some key bits just don't quite work, now these are mostly identified (our colleagues in the 24 player PBEM are doing sterling work in this regard), so they will be sorted sooner or later. A wee bit frustrating but given the scale and scope of this game, to me, its something I can work around. The second is that the game is very deterministic, so quite often to make it realistic (or in MP to enact the wishes of the players), you need to step in and tweak - more than in the recent Clauswitz games. That is the price for a game that is much more framed in a nineteenth century mindset but played by individuals who are much more warlike and expanionist. I'm trying to note where I've done this and my reasons.

Lastly this game is near unique in that you obviously want to win, but if you reduce the AI run countries to a wasteland then you lose too - so using economic warfare etc (or autarky) is not in your long term interests. In that respect, it both boosts the AI (= makes the game more of a challenge) & helps me if the AI states gain additional production capacity.

About prestige calculations.
Remember that bulding high lvl production/industrial buldings also give prestige. And becouse they have propably the greatest number of buldings, when they start upgrade them you can easy lose...
Also scripted opium or/and boer war can give massive prestige to them if they don't lack troops and skill

Thanks for that, it fits my mindset that at some stage, somehow, I'm going to have to tangle direct with GB ... . Now I think they are losing their war with the Prussians (judging by the respective NMs) so in a way that helps me too ...

This is an amazing sequel to the first war. It really sounds like the Ottomans are incapable of offering serious resistance - more like what I expected from the first war, actually. So the 'practical autocrat' in me (the bloodthirsty warmongering land-and-power-hungry tyrant) thinks you should press hard and take what you can while you can get it. Rather than depending on the Sultan to guard your flank later, you would be better off to administer that flank yourself. The game probably won't let you make off with enough to justify the effort though.

Remember: the conqueror's version of 'Buy low and sell high' is, 'Get a lot on the cheap' and, 'Have friends who will do a lot for you but don't want much'.

Beware of letting Garibaldi capture Jerusalem. The man's theology is unsound - when he looks at the Trinity he sees only himself.

agree, my original frame of mind was this war was it and then leave the Ottomans to recover I think after their beating in the first war, followed by the Russians, they really are the sick man of Europe (well near dead actually), I suspect they are in for another beating from the Russians in 1878 too. So one starts to think about ensuring I hold directly all that is important (oddly, as we will see, the game engine seems to agree with this analysis).

As to G's self-effacing modesty ... I feel he has all the subtlety needed to be a success in that region, but this time I'm not letting him go and play with Mekkah and Medina, so he'll have to make do with the Holy Land to display his talents

It definitely looks that the Ottomans decided to decline actually fighting you

This situation actually is interesting gamewise, since you have soundly defeated the Ottos, but you want to hurry and pack things out to try to catch Austria with no help from their northern allies. This limits strongly what you can get from this war if you actually want to fight Austria ...

Very much so, next update more or less finishes the real fighting, its then a race to drive the warscore to the level I want to gain Jerusalem, and then redeploy while both the Prussians are distracted and my National Morale is inflated by this war.

[loki100]

This report was originally designed to be split in two but for some reason I’ve lost a lot of the screenshots, especially the summary start/end material (so contentment et al). I know I took them but don’t have a clue where I put them … . So this will have to be partial, but I’ve managed to retain all the key information and 1877 will see us back to normal. … And 1878 will see something rather dramatic happen

One thing that was very clear this time is the intersection between war and the economy. I can still run a ‘guns and butter’ approach but have a genuine challenge (and potential advantage) to having to deal with the additional population in the conquered provinces.

In which sense, I think PoN is the first strategy game I have ever played where dealing with the civilian population in occupied areas is a feature. Quite simply I need to crank out so much food and common goods just in an attempt to keep everyone from getting very unhappy. But on the other side, I can make use of captured Ottoman resources to help with this.

[CENTER]Industrial matters[/CENTER]

Manufactured



Few key points. I’m organising my economy around this huge increase in domestic demand (bottom 2 lines gives some idea how much more I selling domestically). I’ve also cut taxes (hence the drop in state cash), again with the same goal.

Non-Manufactured



I am just (by about 3 units) falling short of satisfying domestic demand for food, but as you can see I am flogging masses to the domestic market. In Private Capital terms, that allows me to run a balance of payments deficit as I am paying for the imports via domestic purchases.

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Colonial



The Suez Canal goes missing [1]

But I compensate by finding more of East Africa



Missionaries are sent to fill out all the new positions that crop up on a regular basis.

[CENTER]War[/CENTER]

I’ll split this into three sub-sections of the European campaign, events in the Middle East and the siege of Istanbul.

Europe

July opens with the fall of Adrianople, again in comparison to the last war, without the massive bloodshed.



Note again how much of a killer my artillery has become inflicting heavy losses even before the infantry had to close to actually take the fort.

In the meantime, I secure my positions along the Danube, picking up useful NM and Prestige (you gain for winning battles) and weakening the Ottomans.



Again rather one sided. I have two key advantages. Lots of artillery (and all modern) and much higher NM. That means in the combat engine, come the assault phase, Ottoman units are likely to break before close combat occurs. So I am inflicting losses at distance and a large portion of their army is then breaking once the fighting moves to close quarters.



So, one army moves to start the siege of Istanbul. Another waits at Adrianople to recover from its losses and VE II goes on a rampage on the Aegean coast.

Middle East

Garibaldi, being Garibaldi, gets his rampage in first.



Securing Adana by August



Worth contrasting that campaign with the first war where each step saw sustained fighting and on one occasion Garibaldi had to fall back having been beaten and outmanouvered.

This gives me more NM and costs the Ottomans.

At much the same time, the Ottomans abandon Baghdad so I decide to press home an attack



That is another key city taken.

However, I forgot to worry about where that Ottoman army had gone to. So was rather surprised when it struck at Garibaldi’s supply lines



The good thing was my small garrison actually held onto the key depot.



A campaign of manouver commences, but Garibaldi catches them at Adana



And with that, they fall back into Anatolia.

Note the force is made up of little but militia.

Istanbul

Back at Istanbul, the defences are breached by October and Italian troops move to the attack. As feared, the fighting is bloody, but again morale and artillery win the day



Again, my artillery inflicts heavy losses even before the assault commences. I can let those 2 armies recover while VE2 and Gari-tbe-terminator occupy Anatolia.

Now even with Istanbul I am well short of the warscore I need for Jerusalem (which is the 3 provinces of Sinai, Judea and Samaria), so I need to occupy it for some time and press deep into Anatolia in order to convince the Ottomans that such a transfer is really in their best interests.

So, apols for the rather truncated update, at such a key moment. Not got a clue what I’ve done but I can’t go back and capture key information as I only have 4 saved turns at any one time.

[1] – bug reported to AGEOD, there seems to be a problem with all the canals. If I need to, what I’ll do in 1882 is to write a script that simply creates the canal under my ownership.

[loki100]

So are you considering attacking Austria via the Balkans, or is your campaign on the Danube simply to hurt the Ottomans?

I still think attacking Austria via the Balkans/Danube is the way to go

The war will be fought on the Po .... . Actually I do give a lot of consideration to a naval landing to take Split but I want, till I know what I am dealing with, to keep my armies concentrated. The other problem with waging war in the Balkans is the locals tend to get antsy with both sides.

Read about your proposed Mexico mod - should be great. One way to improve PoN is to give more depth to those countries who were mostly focussed on domestic matters rather than the world stage.

Not very many surprises in the update (although the Ottos taking a swipe at Aleppo was one). The contrast between Gari at Aleppo and, well, pretty much everybody else everwhere else is noticeable: while your sieges and battles in the Balkans are spectacularly one-sided and devastating, the skirmish at Aleppo only killed about 3,000 Turks. Any ideas why that battle was relatively bloodless? It seems to be the only occasion in this update where the Ottomans are able to withdraw their army without it being wholly annihilated.

Given that I hunted that army for 3 turns I think it was in passive or defend-retreat on contact stance. Aleppo was my own fault. I spotted they had abandoned Baghdad so made plans to capture that, but forgot to ask myself where they might have been off to. I could fairly easily have saved that cavalry division if I'd been more alert.

There is a conspicuous lack of intel about the Arabian front that surely exists even if in name ( IIRC last time we saw intel from there, there was a larguish rebel force in your part of it, so there might be more pressing deals than moving to Mecca ). Besides that, you have in hand a big part of the Ottoman NM hitters ( I assume you lack forces in Smirna , Ankara, the Arabian ones and little else ), so it is just a matter of ( not ) Constantinople to fall to pack the war out . Any intel on the Prussian war at this time ?

I was a bit conscious that my colonial units are spread very thinly now I own Ethiopia so while I did think about an invasion of Arabia I decided to keep my units back in Yemen - which was handy as a massive revolt broke out.


I needed more than Istanbul, or more accurately, if I'd let the war drag out for 2-3 years then Istanbul would have been enough, but for economic reasons (as well as the opportunity of Prussia's war) I couldn't afford to wait.

As to the Anglo-Prussian war, I think, going simply from the NM screen that Prussia is winning, but I can't see any evidence on the map as to sieges or gains.

Looking good! What is your war score at the moment for your various battles and objective town captures? (I am trying to get the feel of what the best conquest stategy is whether that is an all out focus on capturing the capital or whether a more wide spread campaign is neccessary)

I just concluded a victorius peace in my game where afterwards I actually received negative prestige (-386 for structure loss) which I guess is the games adjustment for when you give up military control of the provinces you were occupying was this your experience first time around? It certainly seems odd to get negative prestige for a successful campaign.

Same here, odd in a way but it reflects that you have just lost all those structures. On the subject of 'claimed regions' in my Austrian war, they appear in the peace screen, so I wonder if its some sort of bug that is affecting regions where you have no direct land connection, or WAD, in the sense of no population logic? Not sure about that.

I take it the Prussians are still at war with GB? Even so, if the back up the Austrians you'll probably be facing both of them in significant numbers.

Will we get to see our own Battles of the Isonzo, nos. 1 through 11? Or are you going to be more successful?

Patience chaps ... come July 1878 all will be revealed. Yes they are still at war with GB or I wouldn't have dared to gamble. And yes, I would like to set up a defense line on the Isonzo and the Dolomites and let the Austrians kill themselves on the offensive, 2 turns into the war rather indicates they may have the same idea (in reverse)

[loki100]

Given that the outcome of this particular war is no longer in much doubt I’ll simplify the discussion of the campaign and fit the entire six month report into a single update. So we’ll start with peace (which will include striking Swiss, belligerent Prussians and a colonial revolt) and then move onto war ….

[CENTER]Peace

Regular Reports[/CENTER]

The main issue in terms of industry is the ongoing dynamic of having to cope with all this massive population demand. The result of all this is, by my standards a very odd economy, with a balance of payments deficit but generating a massive positive balance in terms of Private Capital



That is the situation in late May but its not atypical. So I have a -1000 PC Balance of Payments deficit but am selling +2000 to the population (I guess my normal sales just in Italy are around 1000-1100). As you can see, I’m awash in cash and the evil British Imperialists are getting greedy about my Scottish gold field.

Manufactured Goods



Again, thing to note there is the massive expansion of domestic production (in addition to all those imports). I am also able to make use of the Ottoman production I’ve occupied.

Non-Manufactured Goods



Less to say with this, just that I can sell all the food I can produce or import, so everyone of my agricultural units is open and working (unlike the lazy Swiss).

Population



Main thing there is I am just selling enough to keep satisfaction steady and militancy under control. Other things to note are that in their enthusiasm for the war effort (& to celebrate me sending all the missionaries off to the colonies) is the massive boost in population (3rd column from the right), equally educational levels (2nd column from the right) soar (as students start to pay attention to staying in education rather than being sent to fight in Eastern Anatolia). Thus we see the motivating features of a good war.

Just wait till the army comes home and watch the birth rate shift. Actually thinking about it, that increase is about 9 months after I started this war … this game is scarily accurate.

Army



Perhaps as a measure of how one sided these battles are is that my conscript pool only dropped a little from 1093 to 986 in the six months. Other than that, given the relatively low intensity fighting, I am just raising new replacement chits as I need them.

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Diplomatic

It does really seem as if the Prussians are out to offend everyone they possibly can



Discoveries

A lot of discoveries unlock in this period.



I’m not sure why rabies is good for the Catholic Church, but given how nuts the Prussians have gone it seems a useful vaccine to have (actually what it does is to boose the birthrate of all my nationals who share the state religion). Smallpox and Tuberculosis both improve overall contentment (well their cure does), gold standard increases consumption and Scientific Management gives me a new factory and improves output.

Colonies

More new land is discovered



And Yemen revolts again


I won’t report that campaign in detail but it took a year to stamp out. I was glad I hadn’t committed those formations to an invasion of Ottoman held Arabia.

Prussia is found interfering in my colonial regions



At least Dubai is settling down to Italian rule



That now means it is part of my accepted Sphere of Influence. In effect my first accepted gain outside the regions I start with.


[CENTER]War[/CENTER]

The main campaign was a slow expansion across Anatolia as I pinned the final Ottoman armies down and took as many cities as I could. This was interspersed by two uprisings behind my lines, but both were quickly suppressed.

The following gives some idea of how my warscore built up over time:



On the way to this a few major battles happened but mostly it was one sided stuff. The main exceptions were:



Of note, they both happened on the Black Sea coast as I drove back the last large Ottoman army. You can see in the fighting at Trabzon just how dependent on militia they have become. That was the last major battle of the war.

Anyway peace seems to be the popular thing to have in the new Europe





So that is what it was all about. I now surround Egypt and have an improved communication route from Italy to East Africa.

But of course, there was also all that extra prestige



Well I am now number 3 in the world having passed Russia by over 1000 points. My losses in the war were around 80-100,000 (in comparison to 600,000 in the first war).

Note that my prestige has just dipped by 491 as I have handed back all those cities and industrial units to the Ottomans.

Looking at the respective National Morale figures, I reckon the Prussians are beating the British but there is no evidence on the map of sieges or provinces changing hands.

Now on the subject of Prussians, a little while later (well a year later) I find this hanging around Trieste:



I am so glad they are at war with the British and I do hope they decide not to back up Austria. I think they are hanging around Trieste as they are trying to get to Malta. Stupid Prussian General Staff not realising they can’t walk on water.

[loki100]

The Prussian General Staff can dream, can they not?

Either way, it was a good read and I can't help by chuckle at the rabies and Catholic church, population Growth part.
Reminded me of the Monk and his pea plants helping my population grow more...
Aphrodisiac peas?
I'm actually looking forward to your showdown with the Austrians, in my world they are the beast of Europe.

I am still mentally scarred by that picture of an Austrian army that someone posted on the AGEOD forum - it makes that herd of Germans holidaying on the Adriatic seem but an advanced guard. At various times I've seen around 8000pwr of Austrians hanging around (I put my army on the border in the hope of stirring up a diplomatic impasse and forcing them to a dow), so I guess there must be more, but that doesn't sound beyond my capacity to handle. But I have had no intelligence on Austria since I started insulting them in the 1860s.

Since you mentioned the Austrian DOW I have pulled up a comfy chair, got a beer from the fridge and am settling down to watch the show

For obvious reasons I am very interested in seeing how this all pans out although I'm not sure my own game is going to make it that far as I have a serious issue / unknown game mechanic that is halving my luxury good and wine stockpiles nearly every turn which in consequence is cutting off my private capital.

Looking at that Prussian army I think the AI needs to have a cap placed on the maximum size of army it can create because that one is a serious stack of doom and more than a little rediculous. It also makes me wonder if the AI gets a supply boost as I can't see how a single province can support an army that size.

I think, going back to that Austrian stack and the discussion, that Pocus indicated he had written a routine to force it to break down, but I guess in some way Trieste is the only front line province so its just pilling units in there.

I'm not sure that in Europe, supply is a big issue in this game? You have the minor problem of its delivery when on campaign, but in general it doesn't seem to be much of a limit. But then, I have not really seen any land-based European wars yet

I'm surprised the Prussians aren't just trying to drain the Med.

Furthermore, given how belligerent the Prussians seem to be at the moment, I'm not sure it's worth trying to keep out of a war with them - they'll get round to you eventually.

They do carry on issuing CBs to the planet, in fact in the next update, Mars comes into play (sort of).

Wasn't there a strange SF novel by Philip Dick that started from the premise of a German-Japanese victory in WW2. If I recall, that had an oblique discussion of the Nazi's draining the Med for some reason.

I know this is really late to ask, but what ever happened to that war between Mexico and the United States? As you know, my interest at the moments is in anything in PoN that relates to Mexico.

I think they got Sonora and the rest of modern day Mexico (I guess more or less as the scripted end point). Since then Mexico has not really featured, I am trading with it and it seems perfectly stable (but then I doubt there are many relevant events in the basic game to simulate the turbulent domestic history). When I get to 1880 I think I'll do a wider state of the world review and have a look at regions that I have not covered at all (there has been an ongoing Polish revolt etc) as that seems a good point to set the scene for the second part of the game.

On the first, I have to ask: passionate Italian troops 'kissing' their sweethearts goodbye one last time, or rather all of Italy's milkmen sensing their chance now that Giovanni Soldierboy is off to the front and Maria Allallone needs some companionship?

As to the second: maybe the Prussians plan to walk to Malta - on a bridge made out of the corpses of all those Landwehr and Reserve-Brigades? It looks like they brought enough bodies to fill in the Med.

Even though I have deployed all the priests to the colonies, I am sure that Italy remains a virtuous nation ... either that or as you say, first you remove an army of 500,000 men and then you watch what happens in their absence?


Anyways ... here's a wee calculation, its taken me 8 months to get from 1850 to the start of 1878 (I'm actually up to August 1878 in game), so at a very rough guess, this is going to take 42/3.5 = 12 or so months to finish this ... ahem o

[loki100]

This was a sort of interim period between the second Ottoman war and the attempted liberation of North Italy. My colonial war in Yemen was ongoing but to the end I was able to deploy Umberto’s regular corps that had been in action in Iraq. This meant I slowly started to inflict element losses on the rebels.

It ended with a major revolt in Libya (well more strictly in those desert regions I’ve been exploring) and since I lack the forces to really deal with it, it drags out with some rather nasty defeats. Other than that, it takes me about 4 months to bring the main army back to Italy.

[CENTER]Regular Reports[/CENTER]

Manufactured



Few things to note there. At the start my Private Capital was low as I was working out how to adjust my imports now I was no longer feeding most of the Ottoman Empire (so over-imported). Note that overall my domestic production settled down at around 800 PC per turn, before the latest Ottoman war that was just under 700. So this reflects both my new industrial plants and the boost to my domestic population (as reported in the last update).

Final bit, and I’ve managed to obscure this with the cropping is that the State Funds are going through the roof (over 8000 at the end). This reflects taxing all that activity (& I am lowering taxes to boost contentment) and also I am running out of research projects to fund (as we’ll see later in this report). Beyond raising new units there is not a huge amount I can spend that on.

Non-Manufactured



Not too much to note there, some low grade juggling of production sites to control the stocks and the usual rather volatile changes in the stock levels for opium (which is odd as production is pretty constant).

Population



Although there are some exceptions, in general my population (3rd col from the right) increases steadily by +1/+2 per province. To reflect this, on average the literacy rates dip a little.



As has been discussed before, it is fairly hard to gain an overview of the non-national or colonial regions on the same basis. This shows 3. Corfu and the Dodecanese are my spoils from various wars with the Ottomans and rebels. Main things to note is that apart from their prestige they are pretty useless, low development levels, low population and relatively low education levels. Corfu is also rather militant.

The one I wanted to show was Dubai. Remember this flipped from colonial status to being part of Italy. Key is I have pushed up the development level (7th col from left) and that Italians (all my immigrants) actually make up 53% of the population. I’m using the ‘Telecoms’ cards there now to improve both the population and the development level as I am determined to gain the gem production I have invested in.

Army



Main thing to note there is I am starting to prepare for war with the Austrians. Somehow I suspect this will be a more bloody business than the second Ottoman war so what I am doing is to build up my key replacement stocks before hand (so units can recover more quickly from losses).



Just to keep the Austrians in their place, I order up some exciting new artillery and new ships (not sure I need the latter but ….)

[CENTER]Events[/CENTER]

Lack of Diplomacy



So I now have Thessaloniki as an objective, not sure I particularly want it but it is of more value than my other remaining Ottoman targets. Note that Prussia and Russia continue their race to become the first nation with a CB on the entire globe.

Colonies


That shows the position in East Africa, note I have a new little one province colony inland but have made no gains over ‘influenced’ on the bulk of that region.




Shows the situation in N Africa. A rebellion has just broken out in Libya proper and in the Sahara region I have been exploring and slowly developing my colonial penetration.



Finally in Dubai, I am making use of the development cards really to increase the population. I have the gem production up to 4 for each pit now, so slowly making some progress.



I guess its only a matter of time before Russia and/or Prussia gain a CB on Mars?

New technologies



Quite a mixed set and none of those was I actively pushing along. The left hand bunch alter the dynamics between militancy and contentment. Two of those on the right hand side effectively increase contentment (either for all or for the middle and upper classes).

The middle one, if I interpret it correctly, should increase the average education level of my peasantry.



Later on this batch fired. Top is the usual increase in demand for goods per population point, not sure what the middle one does and we have seen the result of my new torpedo boats.

Prestige




So I am now firmly in third place and only 2000 behind the USA. Soon Italy will be full of emigrants fleeing the Americas (?, or maybe not).

Still looks, going by the NM scores, that Prussia is beating GB. No idea where this war is actually taking place except that every now and then a British fleet appears in the Adriatic. A nice prestige losing defeat for the British would be good news for me.

[loki100]

I chuckled.

You're certainly developing quite the African empire. Have you been expanding your armed forces in the colonies to police these huge tracts of land?

Not enough to be honest, I'm trying to hold it on a shoestring and with the aid of the various tribal units I have picked up. I only one regular formation available in case of a major revolt. In truth, I think I need to decide whether my focus is Europe or a colonial empire & I think given the balance of power in Europe then a colonial route is the more realistic (but I don't want to give up on ensuring Italy has its correct borders)

I noticed the Prussians have only lost about 31,000 men so far, whereas the Brits count their losses in the hundreds of thousands. Surely, they haven't all perished at the hand of Heinrich Hun, but it's a worrying sight that the British seem incapable of inflicting any kind of losses on the Prussians. Perhaps this war is being fought (and utterly lost) at the seas, in which case the Royal Navy must be completely wiped out by now.

Now, about that tiny matter of beating up on the Austrians...

Its not so bad, remember that column is total losses since the start of the game. Looking back to 1876, I think that indicates the British have lost 31,000 and the Prussians 12,000 since their war began. Not all the British losses will be with the Prussians as I guess that, like me, they have a few low grade colonial wars to deal with as well. I struggle to work out what or how they are fighting as there are no clues on the map (either of changing control or the little siege marker) and the Prussian army carries on with its Mediterranean holidays

The Man in the High Castle, yes.

Furthermore "strange SF novel by Philip K Dick" is a tautology.

What was your thinking on the size and capabilities of the Austrians at this stage? I'd have guessed you'd be outnumbered, but might have a qualitative edge thanks to a more homogenous populace and (possibly) better tech.

Thats the one, but yes, most (? all) his novels are pretty wierd. I recall one about how to change water to ice (regardless of the actual temperature). He had one wierd imagination.

'The Man in the High Castle' is not at all strange if compared to his other works like 'Valis' and 'Ubik'.

The idea of draining the Med has been around for a while. One wonders if the land thus reclaimed would be too salt-encrusted to use... I suppose the Dutch could help out, but I suspect the French and italians (among others) would be adamantly opposed. I think the Straits of Gibraltar would be too deep and the current flow too fast for any traditional engineering expedient to suffice so I'm not sure what you would use to make the dam thing. And then you have the whole issue of security and trust in the engineering. Nothing like walking out of your house and seeing a mile-high wall of water coming your way - clarifies your morning like none other.

Yep, I'd take some convincing to live there, even without the massive saline problems. It seems to be one of those wierd ideas that never goes away, like the Russian/Soviet/CIS fantasy about reversing the flow of the Siberian rivers to irrigate Central Asia (& wreck what is left of the climate)

Amateur. Man, writing out my grocery list takes more than 12 months.

Keep writing and we'll keep reading. Either you will reach a logical stopping place, decide to condense less-exciting years into smaller posts or... just keep writing.

aye, I realise that a mere 18-20 month long AAR is but small change. More interesting its indicative of speed of play, I'm roughly managing a game year in a real week which makes sense as I'm doing around 4 turns a day.

At the moment, I'm keeping a level of detail so as to create a record that allows for some understanding of trends and events in the late game. Quite simply, there are no records of how the late game works from an 1850 start so this may help with discussions as to how to calibrate that, and also the long term consequences of decisions made earlier in the game (such as speed of industrialisation)

It is interesting to see that, while in the first Ottoman War you made Thessaloniki a priority for supply, in this war you seem to have gone directly for Istanbul and decided to pick up the lesser cities at a later date. Is your supply establishment so much better? or the Ottoman armies so much worse that you can risk a bit of supply overstretch?

Tirana was the key. With that built up to a level 3 port and level 4 depot I had a secure rear supply base. Last time I needed Thessaloniki as it was the only large port/depot that I could easily take. The other advantage was last time it took me about 3 turns to be in a position to move beyond Tirana and by that time the Ottomans had moved some armies into blocking positions. This time by 3 turns I was already closing in on Adrianople (& of course there were much less Ottoman resistance).

In the War of the Worlds you do not have a CB on Mars. Mars has a CB on you. (Hey, it is the Red Planet, right? ).

Well if they fancy taking GB down a bit ... I mean how much prestige should you lose if you are invaded from outer space .. that will help in my quest for victory. But given that both Prussia and Russia continue to gain CBs I wouldn't put it past them.

I imagine 'Skyscrapers' is apart of a chain of techs that will eventually lead to something or allow certain things to fire, much like the 2 and 4 stroke engine tech eventually leads to the automobile.

aye, there are a few that seem to be stepping stones - the only odd thing is that one mentions unlocking a scripted event.

[loki100]

I chuckled.

You're certainly developing quite the African empire. Have you been expanding your armed forces in the colonies to police these huge tracts of land?

Not enough to be honest, I'm trying to hold it on a shoestring and with the aid of the various tribal units I have picked up. I only one regular formation available in case of a major revolt. In truth, I think I need to decide whether my focus is Europe or a colonial empire & I think given the balance of power in Europe then a colonial route is the more realistic (but I don't want to give up on ensuring Italy has its correct borders)

I noticed the Prussians have only lost about 31,000 men so far, whereas the Brits count their losses in the hundreds of thousands. Surely, they haven't all perished at the hand of Heinrich Hun, but it's a worrying sight that the British seem incapable of inflicting any kind of losses on the Prussians. Perhaps this war is being fought (and utterly lost) at the seas, in which case the Royal Navy must be completely wiped out by now.

Now, about that tiny matter of beating up on the Austrians...

Its not so bad, remember that column is total losses since the start of the game. Looking back to 1876, I think that indicates the British have lost 31,000 and the Prussians 12,000 since their war began. Not all the British losses will be with the Prussians as I guess that, like me, they have a few low grade colonial wars to deal with as well. I struggle to work out what or how they are fighting as there are no clues on the map (either of changing control or the little siege marker) and the Prussian army carries on with its Mediterranean holidays

The Man in the High Castle, yes.

Furthermore "strange SF novel by Philip K Dick" is a tautology.

What was your thinking on the size and capabilities of the Austrians at this stage? I'd have guessed you'd be outnumbered, but might have a qualitative edge thanks to a more homogenous populace and (possibly) better tech.

Thats the one, but yes, most (? all) his novels are pretty wierd. I recall one about how to change water to ice (regardless of the actual temperature). He had one wierd imagination.

'The Man in the High Castle' is not at all strange if compared to his other works like 'Valis' and 'Ubik'.

The idea of draining the Med has been around for a while. One wonders if the land thus reclaimed would be too salt-encrusted to use... I suppose the Dutch could help out, but I suspect the French and italians (among others) would be adamantly opposed. I think the Straits of Gibraltar would be too deep and the current flow too fast for any traditional engineering expedient to suffice so I'm not sure what you would use to make the dam thing. And then you have the whole issue of security and trust in the engineering. Nothing like walking out of your house and seeing a mile-high wall of water coming your way - clarifies your morning like none other.

Yep, I'd take some convincing to live there, even without the massive saline problems. It seems to be one of those wierd ideas that never goes away, like the Russian/Soviet/CIS fantasy about reversing the flow of the Siberian rivers to irrigate Central Asia (& wreck what is left of the climate)

Amateur. Man, writing out my grocery list takes more than 12 months.

Keep writing and we'll keep reading. Either you will reach a logical stopping place, decide to condense less-exciting years into smaller posts or... just keep writing.

aye, I realise that a mere 18-20 month long AAR is but small change. More interesting its indicative of speed of play, I'm roughly managing a game year in a real week which makes sense as I'm doing around 4 turns a day.

At the moment, I'm keeping a level of detail so as to create a record that allows for some understanding of trends and events in the late game. Quite simply, there are no records of how the late game works from an 1850 start so this may help with discussions as to how to calibrate that, and also the long term consequences of decisions made earlier in the game (such as speed of industrialisation)

It is interesting to see that, while in the first Ottoman War you made Thessaloniki a priority for supply, in this war you seem to have gone directly for Istanbul and decided to pick up the lesser cities at a later date. Is your supply establishment so much better? or the Ottoman armies so much worse that you can risk a bit of supply overstretch?

Tirana was the key. With that built up to a level 3 port and level 4 depot I had a secure rear supply base. Last time I needed Thessaloniki as it was the only large port/depot that I could easily take. The other advantage was last time it took me about 3 turns to be in a position to move beyond Tirana and by that time the Ottomans had moved some armies into blocking positions. This time by 3 turns I was already closing in on Adrianople (& of course there were much less Ottoman resistance).

In the War of the Worlds you do not have a CB on Mars. Mars has a CB on you. (Hey, it is the Red Planet, right? ).

Well if they fancy taking GB down a bit ... I mean how much prestige should you lose if you are invaded from outer space .. that will help in my quest for victory. But given that both Prussia and Russia continue to gain CBs I wouldn't put it past them.

I imagine 'Skyscrapers' is apart of a chain of techs that will eventually lead to something or allow certain things to fire, much like the 2 and 4 stroke engine tech eventually leads to the automobile.

aye, there are a few that seem to be stepping stones - the only odd thing is that one mentions unlocking a scripted event.