Retreat and capture oddities

[runyan99]

Sticking to the BoA period, I prefer to take the example of Brandywine Creek where the Americans had to retreat in disorder after suffering a defeat. This led Gen. Sullivan in charge of the artillery to abandon all his guns (a score at most with some howitzers, I don't have the exact numbers).

My Revolutionary knowledge is fuzzy, so I'll brush up on that particular battle when I get a chance. However, it is important to ask, was this sort of thing the rule or the exception for most battles in the Revolution? Clearly such a result should be possible. Some bad defeats in battle should lead to disorder, and the possibility of losing artillery and or supply trains. But it shouldn't happen all of the time, and every defeat of an army with artillery shouldn't end up with the army in a city or fort.

Also, from what you say, I get the impression that you are somehow mixing up the speed of movement at the operational scale, where both armies, the defeated and victorious ones are moving roughly at the same speed (and indeed ACW is even more plentyful of examples where the victor is unable to conduct a real pursuit) and what happen when the line break at the tactical level, with opposing foot soldiers (no need for cavalry here) moving and capturing heavy equipment left in place.

I'm not mixing them up in my mind at all. On the contrary, I'm saying that I get the impression that the GAME isn't differentiating at all between a retreat in disorder after a lost battle, an orderly retreat after a battle, and an orderly operational movement designed to refuse battle.

Thus, in my most recent game, when my British main army moves into New Haven with an aggressive stance to engage Washington and the Continental army, Washington 'succeeds' in retreating before a battle in the region (I got a message saying so) and moves into the city of New Haven (because he has artillery and wagons) where I promptly besiege him. That's the game treating Washington's operational maneuver like a panic into the city, and it's not a wise move for the Continental army to make, and it isn't differentiated at all from where the AI would have retreated to if I had badly beaten the army in a battle in the region.

The game isn't making the distinction. I certainly am. Washington should the maneuvering operationally, with his whole army, from region to region to avoid battle, if that is what seems wise based on the size of his force. Not moving into forts and cities.

[runyan99]

Off-topic question. I notice if I place an Indian unit under a British commander they cost 2 points to command. Normally, irregulars count as 0. Is this by design, or a bug? I couldn't find it documented.

[Pocus]

its by design, I think it is written in the extended manual (only available by download) but I'm not sure on that though.

Units which are of a differing nationality compared to the leaders you have in the stack cost x4 of their nominal command cost. If the unit cost 0 CP, it will cost you 2 CP instead.

The thing to do is to add a leader (even a low ranked one) of the right nationality or a leader with a double nationality flag. For the British, you need also to do that for the Germans mercenaries.

[Pocus]

About retreat, orderly or not and such: I think we basically agree. In case of rout or full retreat, you just can't wrap your wagons and guns and disengage from the enemy, in case of an orderly retreat you can.

As you say, BOA lack some finer mechanisms about what is a rout, a fighting withdrawal, a full retreat, etc. We can add them, but it need the Cohesion Rule of our 2nd game and retrofiting it into BOA will take some work & time. For now then, we will revert the logic: by default the armies will retreat outside of the region of the fight as you request, and only if they have the right special order will they instead move into a nearby city. I don't see how we can do something more precise and handled by the player, for now.

[saintsup]

For now then, we will revert the logic: by default the armies will retreat outside of the region of the fight as you request, and only if they have the right special order will they instead move into a nearby city. I don't see how we can do something more precise and handled by the player, for now.

Good proposition IMHO.

[runyan99]

As you say, BOA lack some finer mechanisms about what is a rout, a fighting withdrawal, a full retreat, etc. We can add them, but it need the Cohesion Rule of our 2nd game and retrofiting it into BOA will take some work & time. For now then, we will revert the logic: by default the armies will retreat outside of the region of the fight as you request, and only if they have the right special order will they instead move into a nearby city. I don't see how we can do something more precise and handled by the player, for now.

Sounds like progress. We'll see what refinements the 2nd game brings.

[orca]

[quote="Pocus"]I checked the code and the occurences of retreat into the city or fort are rarer that I thought. You retreat into the city if you have more artillery + supply compared to irregular + militia + cavalry.

Regular neutral in the choice.

Basically it has been decided that the priority choosen by the colonel of a regiment or arty battery is, when there is a fight in the countryside with a town or fort some kms aways:

artillery or supply wagon will try to reach the city or fort asap, to get shelter

cavalry, irregular or militia want to 'run for the hills' and spread.

regular are 50/50 and will follow the rest.

Sound rather logical. Now if you comes with an upgraded logic that can be understood simply by the players, I'm willing to change the code, provided the betas are ok with the proposal. Nothing is set in stone in BOA, its a living game, by players for players (sound like a commercial ]

OK, here is a very simple proposal that would help the most serious problem (the entire continental army retreating into a city where it can be destroyed by the British).

Make the regulars have a slight bias against retreating to the city. Say 60/40. For armies with one or two regulars this will change nothing. For large armies with 5 or 6 regulars the army will be much more likely to do the sensible thing - abandon it's artillery and retreat.