Supply help please

[johnnycai]

... what exactly does a depot do for me if the supplies never arrive in Pensacola in the first place? Or so it seems to me, as there are no or only an insignificant number of general supply icons on the supply filter map there, or anywhere in between ... if forwarding were the problem, would they not keep piling up in the rear?

And for another thing, the distance from port to army is really quite short. Thomas ran out completely in Troy, AL, and that I believe is no more than two hexes from a RR and no more than four from Pensacola. Shouldn't supply be able to travel this short distance no matter what? Or do I really have to plaster the map with depots like that? I never had this problem before I crossed into AL ... from the KY border all the way to the sea, my armies were supplied just fine, with I believe only two depots ever built, one halfway from New Orleans to Jackson and one somewhere south of Corinth.

When I get home tonight, I will gladly post a file for more knowledgeable people to have a look ... and maybe they will be so kind as to enlighten me.

Pensacola will only receive significant blue-water supply if it has a depot, also that will be affected by any forts or entrenched guns blocking the harbour river/sea region. How big is your force? 14,000CA?? If its more than 3divs. roughly 1500 combat strength(using 150+ supply each turn) then your likely pushing it already unless Pensacola or your troops are in supply thru your main supply line from the TN/MS which it sounds like its not. You may want to use some of those transports to ferry in supply into Pensacola where your wagons can get filled up. Check how much supply your using per turn versus how much your pulling form occupied towns near your forces and you should be able to determine how much supply Pensacola is getting via blue-water supply. Compared to say Mobile or Savannah, Pensacola will get less supply via ocean transports.

[arsan]

14,000 strength points sounds like... 28 divisions, more 150,000 men
No doubt you are having problems feeding them!. They will need lots of depots, rail and naval pool and a very solid land supply route. I don't think its possible to feed all this people though Pensacola port.

[Banks6060]

I must clarify something in regards to supply. It somewhat challenges part of Major Tom's manual post. But I think it's important to note.

I posted this in an earlier thread, but just because you have a big city pushing supplies forward...doesn't mean the city doesn't need a depot.

FOR EXAMPLE:

There is a supply line that runs say...in the west...from Detroit...then through Indiana...then Louisville and on to Bowling Green. All of which are big enough to "push" supplies on their own without depots.

Let's say you have a 3,000 point army just south of Bowling Green. This army has supply wagons with it...just fine. But lets say your opponent has mananged to take out all the depots along the way.

The problem with having no depots along this route is that none of the cities are able to store much supplies. They're either pulling it or pushing it. Not storing it.

So your supply wagons will be reaching as far back as Indianapolis for supplies...when conversly...if you had a depot set-up in each of the cities...you would only need 1/3 rail capacity on any given turn to push supplies to each of the depots....which would then store the supplies....and then in turn forward the supplies to Bowling Green and your army that needs it.

It's really hard to explain...but What depots do...at least in part...is provide a "forward base"...or help funnel supplies in a certain direction for the bigger armies that need it.

That army in Bowling Green has supply wagons that would much rather be pulling supplies from a heavily stocked Louisville depot....rather than desperately trying to pull supplies from as far away as Detroit.

So it's important to have depots...even in the big cities...if the supply route leads to one of your large armies.

[Heldenkaiser]

Check how much supply your using per turn versus how much your pulling form occupied towns near your forces [...]

Pray how do I do that? Anything that would help me understand what happens would be most valuable.

[Major Tom]

The problem with having no depots along this route is that none of the cities are able to store much supplies. They're either pulling it or pushing it. Not storing it.

Banks - you have far more experience playing the game than I do, but Pocus has said that there's no limit to how much supply a structure can hold, but it will start to decay if too much is stockpiled ("some hundreds"), so I'm not sure I see the benefit of putting a depot in a region with a level 3+ city, other than the fact that the depot will produce additional supplies each turn.

Is there something else about supply depots that makes them better able to store supplies? Maybe there's something that you've seem from in-game experience that isn't fully explained in the rules? Maybe loyalty?

[Heldenkaiser]

14,000 strength points sounds like... 28 divisions, more 150,000 men
No doubt you are having problems feeding them!. They will need lots of depots, rail and naval pool and a very solid land supply route. I don't think its possible to feed all this people though Pensacola port.

Actually last time I counted them they were just over 250,000. Four corps, each with 4-5 divisions. I didn't count the divisions, but it must be close to twenty. I am not counting Sheridan's cavalry corps which miraculously is in full supply only two regions from Thomas, who is out.

They are not fed only through Pensacola. I also have Mobile, which is a level 6 city I believe, and I have the land route down from KY/TN, but that one may be a bit stretched already. The furthest south where I really have supply piling up is Jackson, beyond that, south and east, stocks are low. I have to open that railroad running east from Meridian I believe, and build depots in between ... anyway, I mentioned Pensacola, because it seemed the most direct route for the supplies, as it's closest and has a short RR link to the army around Montgomery.

I have to thank everyone for their most valuable tips and comments so far. I will be doing my best to build depots all along the way ASAP. I wasn't quite aware that they're so valuable and even useful on top of an existing city. However, as Arsan is hinting now, maybe it's simply not possible to supply an army that large at all in the game? At least not so far from home? BTW I do have to point out that I have full transportation, 3/3, and the regions are NOT pillaged. But still ...

But then how to defeat the South without such an overwhelming force?

[Major Tom]

Pray how do I do that? Anything that would help me understand what happens would be most valuable.

Put your mouse pointer over a stack's supply icon in the unit screen. It will tell you how much supply it has, and how much it uses per turn.

[Heldenkaiser]

BTW here is the last .trn file ... probably everyone who's looking at it will now point out that I am doing everything wrong <prepares to hide in a corner and become invisible>, but anyway, here goes.

[Heldenkaiser]

Put your mouse pointer over a stack's supply icon in the unit screen. It will tell you how much supply it has, and how much it uses per turn.

Thank you! I will check this out.

BTW all your comments and explanations were extremely helpful.

[Banks6060]

Banks - you have far more experience playing the game than I do, but Pocus has said that there's no limit to how much supply a structure can hold, but it will start to decay if too much is stockpiled ("some hundreds"), so I'm not sure I see the benefit of putting a depot in a region with a level 4+ city, other than the fact that the depot will produce additional supplies each turn.

Is there something else about supply depots that makes them better able to store supplies? Maybe there's something that you've seem from in-game experience that isn't fully explained in the rules? Maybe loyalty?

Well...I know they definitedly decay. I'm certainly not arguing that. I'm just saying...it's good to have the depots in big cities...because they act as...at least in my experience...as staging areas if you will.

In any one turn...whether you're the Union or the CSA...you're probably not going to have more than 1/3 rail capacity...MAYBE 2/3. If this is the case....that supply that's being stored in Detroit, as far as I know, will be forwarded to Indianapolis. Everything in Indianapolis to Louisville then everything in Louisville to the hypothetical army.

If you don't have the depot in those major cities. The cities won't have as much stored...

In my experience...even a 4+ city is no match in terms of storage capacity...as a depot. Man this is hard to explain. The basic idea is that of the supplies that's produced...MORE of it actually gets used when you have a chain of depots...even in big cities.

hehe...I should probably just leave it alone. But Maj...I'd ask you...if you have time to test this. Try buiding a large army like in my example...see how its supply situation is with no depots in the large cities....and then see what it's like WITH the depots in the large cities. I think that's the only way to really discover whether there needs to be depots in larger cities.

[Major Tom]

But Maj...I'd ask you...if you have time to test this. Try buiding a large army like in my example...see how its supply situation is with no depots in the large cities....and then see what it's like WITH the depots in the large cities. I think that's the only way to really discover whether there needs to be depots in larger cities.

Exactly why I assume that what you're saying is correct, even if it doesn't square 100% with my understanding of the "rules" -- you've had a lot more experience of the game than me, and you've clearly managed to figure out how to keep a big army supplied in the field. Could it be that "throughput" is the problem, and that even a large city is limited in how much supply can pass through it, but adding a depot can greatly expand it?

[Banks6060]

Exactly why I assume that what you're saying is correct, even if it doesn't square 100% with my understanding of the "rules" -- you've had a lot more experience of the game than me, and you've clearly managed to figure out how to keep a big army supplied in the field. Could it be that "throughput" is the problem, and that even a large city is limited in how much supply can pass through it, but adding a depot can greatly expand it?

That could be it. I guess the depots help reduce waste maybe. They funnel supplies forward 5 regions at a time...and you know those supplies are actually going to be used by your army down the line.

Without the depots in those larger cities further up the chain...you don't KNOW where the supplies are gonna go....or even if they'll be used at all. That's kind of how I explain it in summation I guess.

Having the depots helps establish exactly where all the supplies your cities produce is going.

[soundoff]

That could be it. I guess the depots help reduce waste maybe. They funnel supplies forward 5 regions at a time...and you know those supplies are actually going to be used by your army down the line.

Without the depots in those larger cities further up the chain...you don't KNOW where the supplies are gonna go....or even if they'll be used at all. That's kind of how I explain it in summation I guess.

Having the depots helps establish exactly where all the supplies your cities produce is going.

Thats how I read and play it....and its why in our campaign I have already built a depot at Louisville KY...not that I'm giving anything away .....you've already scouted that out

Its also why I always keep supply units with any forces of significant size...just to pull those supplies to me.....unless of course I reckon evasion is more important.

[Banks6060]

here we go...My "in a nutshell" explanation for the use of depots...no matter how large or small the city is you build them in.

Depots allow you to better CONTROL the flow of WHERE supplies go.

Without them...you can't as accurately map and/or predict how supplies will move.

[Nial]

As the CSA I don't have the resources to build a whole bunch of depots. And frankly I haven't found it nessesary except in Missouri where a large army is bound to run into trouble due to terrain and lack of RR capacity. The USA likes to capture large swaths of land in Missouri to cut off supply. But if you pay attention and recapture lost regions with Cav. divisions it's not too much of a problem. I usually establish a depot in Bollingreen TN to help my offense's against Louieville, and thats about it. Once you've taken Louieville, you can move on Lexington and Cinncinati and after that TN is pretty much sown up. You don't need anything in Virginia. Since offensive action by the CSA in the east is usually limited to short invasions into the north, with plenty of large cities to capture. It's not an issue for the CSA in the east at all unless your army gets cut off. In that case your in trouble anyway.

For the North its a bit more problematic. With deep offensives and long supply lines the need for depots interspaced with large cities every 3-5 regions becomes more acute. But then the USA has plenty of resources available. So once again it is not really an issue.
Not sure exactly why this is so hard. Problems for me arrise more from inattention to the supply issue than it actualy being hard.

Nial

[soundoff]

here we go...My "in a nutshell" explanation for the use of depots...no matter how large or small the city is you build them in.

Depots allow you to better CONTROL the flow of WHERE supplies go.

Without them...you can't as accurately map and/or predict how supplies will move.

+1

And its another reason why, even if it already is a done deal, that the role of Logistics is going to be cheapened by dumbing it down to make it less costly.

[Chaplain Lovejoy]

In any one turn...whether you're the Union or the CSA...you're probably not going to have more than 1/3 rail capacity...MAYBE 2/3.

Hmmm...I almost always end up with 3/3 rail capacity (USA) left over for supply purposes. This unhealthy fixation on building/keeping enough rail capacity for that purpose must be the result of that silly degree in Logistics Management the USAF forced on me years ago. Teeth-to-tail ratio out of whack and all that.

[Major Tom]

here we go...My "in a nutshell" explanation for the use of depots...no matter how large or small the city is you build them in.

Depots allow you to better CONTROL the flow of WHERE supplies go.

Without them...you can't as accurately map and/or predict how supplies will move.

Wow, lots of great expert advice here from a lot of great players.

What you say about accurately mapping where supplies are going really resonates with me. I really love this game, but the lack of transparency in supply distribution is terrible. There really ought to be a way to see where your supplies are going and where your bottlenecks are rather than speculating on it. And that's not asking for a degree of information that's historically inaccurate to have, not is it beyond the scope of a strategic level game. A good quartermaster general should be able to at least see how supplies are moving.

I think I've "missed out" on major supply issues because I play CSA almost exclusively. For all the reasons Nial stated, supply just doesnt seem to be a killer issue for CSA. I just haven't seen the issue there. In the couple of USA campaigns I've played I beat the AI early enough that no really deep penetration with large armies was necessary. I can certainly see where Sherman's march to the sea could be a supply nightmare, I've just never experienced it in play.

Heldenkaiser's dilemma, the raison d'etre of this thread, sort of awakened me to something I wasn't even all that concerned about before -- the problems with keeping a large army fed far from home. I think I need to play the AI again as USA and resolve not to take Richmond early, so I can play out a longer game as USA. Or maybe jump into PBEM. I'm in a PBEM game with a friend who will challenge me (and probably beat me!), but it's progressing kind of sloooooowly, and I'm playing my beloved CSA so I don't expect supply to be an issue as long as I stay out of the mountains in winter .

[Redeemer]

BTW here is the last .trn file ... probably everyone who's looking at it will now point out that I am doing everything wrong <prepares to hide in a corner and become invisible>, but anyway, here goes.

I assume you biggest worry is Army of TN in AL (it is impressive). You have three real problems. No depot for the supplies to accumulate from over the sea, no wagons in your corps or army, and it is winter. Building a depot on any of the coastal towns (Escambia, Baldwin, Santa Rosa, or Mobile) and one in Montgomery, AL would solve all your immediate problems. Build supply wagons or bring ones from inactive armies down to them and put one or two in each stack should help. River transports (2) in any rive zones next to your stacks will help as well. This would solve Smith's Corps supply problems in Mason, AL.

[Gresbeck]

can receive and send supplies up to 5 regions away per phase.

• Depot
• Town (level 4+)
• Harbor (5+)

There's something unclear to me. Hobbes AACW reference guide states:

Town lvl 1-2, fort, wagon, harbors 1-4: don't send supply, can receive from up to 5 regions away
Town 3+, harbors 5+, depots: can send

I wonder if the rule has changed to increase the city level needed to send supply.

[soundoff]

Hi Gresbeck,

Hobbes is right its Town 3+

[Heldenkaiser]

I assume you biggest worry is Army of TN in AL (it is impressive). You have three real problems. No depot for the supplies to accumulate from over the sea, no wagons in your corps or army, and it is winter. Building a depot on any of the coastal towns (Escambia, Baldwin, Santa Rosa, or Mobile) and one in Montgomery, AL would solve all your immediate problems. Build supply wagons or bring ones from inactive armies down to them and put one or two in each stack should help. River transports (2) in any rive zones next to your stacks will help as well. This would solve Smith's Corps supply problems in Mason, AL.

Actually there are four wagons with Grant. I heeded the adviced posted earlier by somebody on this board to keep the cumbersome wagons with the army HQ to make the corps more mobile. Two of these wagons are now building a Depot in Montgomery, and two more are going down to the halfway point on the RR to Pensacola. Two oceangoing transports will dock in that port next turn and build yet another depot. And two river transports are sailing up the <what-it's-name> on the left flank of the army to stand ready should I need a fourth depot. So I am really now plastering the map with depots. I just hope the army survives until they become operational, which will not be before February for the last ones I am afraid.

Smith is probably done for though. Harsh weather, no wagons, and inactive, he will never make it out of his tight spot before the corps dies of hunger and exposure. Damned waste.

Well, it's my first game ever. Still learning. With the help of all the kind people here taking their time to answer my beginner questions.

[Heldenkaiser]

Heldenkaiser's dilemma, the raison d'etre of this thread, sort of awakened me to something I wasn't even all that concerned about before -- the problems with keeping a large army fed far from home.

One of the reasons why I like playing USA on this level of gaming. The management aspects of warfare for some strange reason excite me more than heroics of brilliant leaders.

Or maybe jump into PBEM.

Do! It's exciting. Makes it feel so much more real.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Major Tom]

There's something unclear to me. Hobbes AACW reference guide states:



I wonder if the rule has changed to increase the city level needed to send supply.

Absolutely right. My little guide is wrong, it's towns level 3+. I'll edit my original post. Thanks for catching that!

[soundoff]

That's because as usual you are focused too much on seeing only a part of the big picture. I can't correct everything at once. This was fairly obvious that there was a huge discrepancy between using:

2 ocean transports units to build a depot for ($20, 4 con, 12 WSu) to build a depot
or
2 Riverine transport units to build a depot for ($32, 8 con, 16 WSu) to build a depot
or
2 Wagon transport units to build a depot for ($80, 48 con, 48 WSu) to build a depot.

This has needed correction for a long time since it was based on different sized units and not individual elements as intended. At least when it's done, the values will be somewhat closer than the huge resource cost difference that exists now. Fortunately, the game programmer/designer (Pocus) could see immediately that this was a design flaw.

Of course the resource discrepancy is daft but whichever way you cut it, altering the costs downwards amounts to 'dumbing logistics' . Now when you develop/add/amend later as you hint .......particularly as I dont have access to the 'big picture' as you so delicately put it then maybe I'll alter my stance. Until such time though when this change is introduced and assuming its introduced as a stand alone supply alteration I'll still contend that its cheapening the role.

[johnnycai]

Actually there are four wagons with Grant. I heeded the adviced posted earlier by somebody on this board to keep the cumbersome wagons with the army HQ to make the corps more mobile. Two of these wagons are now building a Depot in Montgomery, and two more are going down to the halfway point on the RR to Pensacola. Two oceangoing transports will dock in that port next turn and build yet another depot. And two river transports are sailing up the <what-it's-name> on the left flank of the army to stand ready should I need a fourth depot. So I am really now plastering the map with depots. I just hope the army survives until they become operational, which will not be before February for the last ones I am afraid.

Smith is probably done for though. Harsh weather, no wagons, and inactive, he will never make it out of his tight spot before the corps dies of hunger and exposure. Damned waste.

Well, it's my first game ever. Still learning. With the help of all the kind people here taking their time to answer my beginner questions.

Hello Again, my earlier response didnt know of your occupation of Mobilie and Montgomery and the massive force you have in Alabama.
In general, your force is overwhelming the supply, this much is clear.
I would say the easiest and most cost-effective way to resupply your mega-force would be to sail some ocean/river transports into towns near your army for depot building and to provide supply. This will extend your main supply route from the north to your army. If, say Meridian/Mobile are being supplied and stockpiling (which depots do better than lvl 3+/4+ cities/harbours), then try building depots in Pensacola, Montgomery as you have stated, you may want to move forces back to the supplied areas West of Montgomery until the supply situation improves. With Mobile in friendly hands, you can use the river and make use of cheaper and likely more readily available transports/river steamboats for depots and supply passing to adjacent regions like Montgomery.

[77NY]

You can also break your force up into two or three stacks. I haven't looked at the file but if you have 250,000 troops in Alabama under Grant/Sherman/Sheridan, I don't see anything touching you, especially during the winter. The prohibition against dividing your forces only applies if you are in the face of superior enemy numbers, which seems extremely unlikely.

[Major Tom]

here we go...My "in a nutshell" explanation for the use of depots...no matter how large or small the city is you build them in.

Depots allow you to better CONTROL the flow of WHERE supplies go.

Without them...you can't as accurately map and/or predict how supplies will move.

Okay, I found a quote from Pocus that proves what Banks is saying, and some insight into how supply is distributed (emphasis mine):

Jbeoddy you are very close to the exact algorithm.

There are 3 phases. The segments indicated during the supply phase is only to tell you the calculation is still being done, and only correspond to 0.5 to 0.75 seconds of computing, nothing more.

In a phase, a source can forward to a distance of up to 5 regions the supply. Even by mule. Rail and River are useful because they lower the cost of the terrain, and thus allow to reach in all cases targets 5 regions away, even in mud or bad weather. On the other hand if supply is moved by mule&horses, 5 regions can only realistically be reached if the weather is fair and there is a road. Expect 3 or even 2 regions if bad weather and hilly terrain.

Sources are depots or city of level 3+
Destinations are depot, city of level 3+, forts or wagons. Military units ARE NOT destinations.

How the supply is spread is the core of the algorithm. It tries to guess intelligently, and is constrained by the 'magnet factor' of the destinations. [color="Red"]Depot = big magnet. Valid target in a region with a lot of troops: medium magnet. Little city without troops: you'll only get a few supply.[/color]

Sources don't deplete themselves too. They keep ample supply.

In the end you have a grid of sources and destinations, equilibrated with an iterative approach. If you have a bottleneck, or a black hole (aka big troops at the end of the chain), the supply net will not be able to compensate all the needs.

Not a single supply point is teleported or created from nothing during the phase. If a wagon is replenished to 100%, it means there was enough supply point forwarded to him.

That is about supply distribution. We have not talked about military units for now, just how supply is distributed.

Then you have supply consumption. Troops will draw supply from stocks which are in their region OR adjacent. And not further away. So the use of wagon as mobile targets for the supply net. Or the starving of a militia if not adjacent to a town.

Please update the wiki accordingly.

From this thread: http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=87711&highlight=supply#post87711

He also adds some clarification here:

Some precisions:

a) any structure can indeed receive some supply.
b) in case of a very big stock, low level cities can still send supplies.

The distribution is made using a virtual supply wagon, created and destroyed in the supply phase. It travels with all the contingencies and advantages of a land unit, ie it can pass jumplinks too. The exact type of the supply wagon used is referenced in each scenario for each faction, so one can imagine using a faster or slower one for some scenarios, to represent a better logistic system.

The above is an excellent supply thread that I had not found before.

This proves Banks' assertion that depots are supply magnets. It also disproves my own thinking, which was that troops are supply magnets. They're not, unless they are physically in a region with a valid target for supplies -- a depot, harbor or city. So if your troops are just near a city, that city will not pull extra supply in anticipation that those troops will need it. So, even a large city is in no way equal to having a supply depot in terms of attracting supplies.

I've found a number of other posts Pocus has made regarding supply distribution. I've try to post all of that info together today. Putting all of those together, I think I'm getting a handle on this -- but it's really complicated!

[arsan]

Very interesting!
Moral: build depots and always put a supply wagon or more on your corps/big stacks. It will supply and also function as an emergency supply reserve. In case of trouble, the supply actually loaded on the wagon can feed your stack for one or two extra turns giving you precious time to reach a supply force or send new fully loaded wagons before the troops starve.
Feeding a huge army like Helderkaiser's (250.000 men) deep on enemy country its an extraordinary feat that needs careful planning and provisions even before actually moving them "down there"
If we put winter weather on the equation then things get still more "interesting"
Regards!