Please someone, explain these results

[Daxil]

I'd be happy to concede defeat if this made any sense to me at all.

This is the long-awaited battle of Nashville. My armies were in force march (butonly moved one hex), the army itself, with two divs was in defensive mode and arrived at Nash trn 5. My two corps were in offensive, outside the Nashville hex to increase the chance they'd march to guns. He - Union - arrived day 11. Somehow he was not penalized for crossing a major river - i did not think the stance of units marching to the sound of guns mattered unless they were the ones being attacked. The only thing I see is a cav discrepency. Do they trump cannons or something?

[Daxil]

I think I see what happened. Somehow the two divs in the army didn't engage. Maybe I'm not completely comprehending the army/corps relationship. Does the army HQ just avoid contact if at all possible?

[eleven_west]

The only two things that come to mind are
1. Penalties : Force marching your army would decrease cohesion which may be fine when you want to force march the one brigade or two but it can be catastrophic at army level. You may well have lost like a 30% chunk off your cohesion levels. Also are all of your divisions properly mixed/set up without penalties? Also was Johnston or any other leader deactivated when he marched to Nashville? Did you create any new divisions prior to marching the troops, as this would sometimes cause generals to revert to defensive stance/deactivate (unconfirmed)
2. Icons : Look at the icons at the bottom, there's a lot of red on your side, I can't remember all of them by heart but your army seems to have failed luck rolls, morale checks and the all important first fire. 1/3 of your cannon was light are you certain he hasn't pitted 48 well placed Columbiad against a multitude of Horse and Light brass cannon? Also he seems to have a full division of Horse, whereas you could at most field the minimum one brigade per division

Everywhere else you have easy superiority, so in theory if you could make it close enough to fire you should have rolled over Thomas. However I see a serious discrepancy in the amount of ammunition used - I think they seem to have used 700 ammo against 100of yours? Are you sure you didn't just March them INTO Nashville therefore accruing a massive frontage penalty to your army? They don't seem to have fired much they just sat there and got mauled.

[Banks6060]

first thing I'm thinkin' is the forced march penalty...and yes....If you had any divisions under Johnson's direct command...they probably didn't fight. typically, once you've formed a Corps structure, you only leave divisions in the HQ stack to rest them.

But it looks like you were only actually fighting with your two corps...in offensive posture....take away the 2 HQ divs...probably minus a good 600-700 power, with BOTH sides in attack posture (i.e. relatively similar fire values) and that evens the odds quite a bit.

It also looks as though his big guns were able to reach your troops before yours were able to fire. Quite frankly....fighting against the Yanks, with their Parrots, Rodman's and 10 pdr's....in clear terrain....is just inviting more casualties. So it's obvious that despite your superiority in artillery...he had a superiority in range.

Then you take penalties accrued due to insufficient command in your army.

Also it looks like quite a few more of your troops failed morale checks due to all the forced marching.

8 routed elements means low cohesion...again...probably due to forced marching.


So...in essence...what happened was Thomas advanced on your position in Nashville, your two Corps were probably out of position and hurrying to a place where they could support Johnson....they managed to make it....but were very tired and disorganized by the time they reached the field....not to mention insufficiently commanded.....were ordered to attack anyway.....into a hail of Union cannon....in the middle of open terrain....against an enemy that was better rested and probably a little better led. By the time they closed range...their cohesion was already so low that it would not be long before they began to route. Sure enough....the Union advance's momentum was too much for your tired Corps' to handle...and voila. a Union victory.

[Banks6060]

Also, to add insult to injury...Union cavalry outnumbered yours by about 2-1 one alot of those troops that routed were probably hurt even further by cavalry romping around in your rear areas. Which probably only added to the number of hits you received while retreating.

[LuckyJim1001]

Superb Analysis there Banks. I doff my cap.

Trouble is we can look at the raw numbers and think 'How the hell did I lose that' The example above threw me. Almost 1000 Combat Values higher than the Union and it was still a defeat.

I make this mistake because of my old boardgame days of CRTs and Odds. :-)

As the games get more sophisticated we have to adapt and try and get a 'feel' for the combat rather than just add up the attack values and compare them to the defensive value. Certainly in my games so far I find myslef watching cohesion a lot. No point getting them there if all they can do is keep thier eyes open. Then there is the whole first shot/terrain/weather etc etc thing.

I am still very much at the test stage. Strategy goes out the window and I just move units around to get a feel for how it all sits together.

[Rafiki]

I think that the biggest cause of confusion after battles is that the battle screen shows all forces that are in the region where the battle takes place, not just the forces that take part in the battle. I hope this will be addressed in a not-too-distant future

(Pocus, Prima, yeah, I know.... )

[Daxil]

first thing I'm thinkin' is the forced march penalty...and yes....If you had any divisions under Johnson's direct command...they probably didn't fight. typically, once you've formed a Corps structure, you only leave divisions in the HQ stack to rest them.

But it looks like you were only actually fighting with your two corps...in offensive posture....take away the 2 HQ divs...probably minus a good 600-700 power, with BOTH sides in attack posture (i.e. relatively similar fire values) and that evens the odds quite a bit.

It also looks as though his big guns were able to reach your troops before yours were able to fire. Quite frankly....fighting against the Yanks, with their Parrots, Rodman's and 10 pdr's....in clear terrain....is just inviting more casualties. So it's obvious that despite your superiority in artillery...he had a superiority in range.

Then you take penalties accrued due to insufficient command in your army.

Also it looks like quite a few more of your troops failed morale checks due to all the forced marching.

8 routed elements means low cohesion...again...probably due to forced marching.


So...in essence...what happened was Thomas advanced on your position in Nashville, your two Corps were probably out of position and hurrying to a place where they could support Johnson....they managed to make it....but were very tired and disorganized by the time they reached the field....not to mention insufficiently commanded.....were ordered to attack anyway.....into a hail of Union cannon....in the middle of open terrain....against an enemy that was better rested and probably a little better led. By the time they closed range...their cohesion was already so low that it would not be long before they began to route. Sure enough....the Union advance's momentum was too much for your tired Corps' to handle...and voila. a Union victory.

I think this is a pretty good analysis. The main thing that beat me was JJ wimping out and retreating with my two best divs, but also he engaged me at range 4, me at range 1. My command was uncoordinated, disorganized and frankly scared. As commander in chief action must be taken to protect the integrity of the confederacy! Stay tuned!!1qq1

[Rafiki]

BTW, What exactly is it that determines who gets counted as attacker and who is defender? If Thomas was defending in this battle, he would be enjoying a semi-shopping 20% leadership advantage over JJ.

[Daxil]

BTW, What exactly is it that determines who gets counted as attacker and who is defender?

I don't know. I guess that's all part of the mystery. I'd go a step further on your suggestion and create a screen that shows you which elements are firing, how much damage they inflicted and on what.

[Daxil]

Here's a further breakdown:

Union/CSA

Luck: 52/50
River crossing: 48/0
Favorable ground: 0/44
Morale checks failed: 12/25
Insufficiently commanded: 0/1
On battlefield: 48/80
Opened fire at: 4/1
Attempted retreats: 0/1
Hits suffered: 94/182

[eleven_west]

Yeah Daxil - victory was snatched from your rebel pocket

It seems that the command penalty, morale hit due to force marching and the range of fire really did you in this time.

Out of curiosity, what level of difficulty are you playing at the moment?

[Daxil]

It's a PBEM game - the only way to play.