Becoming unsupplied in supplied regions?

[arsan]

Regarding the unit locked in place in "Rockbridge, VA": I tried several times to "starve" this unit out and couldn't get it to actually happen... I even went so far as to turn off the AI, and not add any resources to the "Rail and River" economy screens. This was using v1.10b however, so maybe it is fixed somehow with this update.

Could something about supply had been changed on the last patches??
Usually i send them a supply wagon ASAP, so lately i had not seen them starving
Don't you get the unsupplied message log for them neither??

What do you think about the "Johnston case"?
IMHO this is the most important of this problems although it is no supply related, is Health/replacement's related.

Regards!

[Coregonas]

T5 final situation. 1.10a

I ve moved it railroad to the city to avoid starvation, but still lost his men



t4 - Turn before disaster

[arsan]

Thanks Coregonas!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jabberwock]

This 3rd Reserve Bde is just annoying, because if you don´t remember to send them a supply wagon ASAP they will lose men from lack of supply. Maybe their appearance region could be moved a little so they get adjacent to the nearby Covington or Charlottesville towns and could receive some supply from there.

I always send a supply wagon out there, sometimes starting on its way even before the unit appears.

[arsan]

About the Johnston force. A depot was suggested in Winchester, but that region is actually connected to the USA railnet, so I'm not so sure that would be a very good idea, especially if the USA captured it intact and was able to use it without expending supply wagons of their own.

I'm open for suggestions here...

Thanks for looking at this, Gray.
As i posted before, my suggested solutions would be...

This 3rd Reserve Bde: Maybe their appearance region could be moved a little so they get adjacent to the nearby Covington or Charlottesville towns and could receive some supply from there.

The Johnston force: The problem here is not solved by making them appear on Winchester as there is no depot there... bad for playing with historical attrition.
So the solution would be placing the force and a depot on Winchester, or placing a independent depot where the force begins or deeper up the valley and move Johnston there.
For example, placing a depot on Harrisonburg and moving Johnston there would solve both problems as it will also give supply to the 3rd Reserve Brigade.
But... this area is not rail connected...

Other possibility: put a depot on Rocksbridge area and move Johnson force down there... as here there is rail.

In all this cases, having depot down on the valley would spice up the strategic interest of the area. As it is now, south of Winchester the area is pretty empty...

Just my 2 cents.

[soundoff]

The Johnston force: The problem here is not solved by making them appear on Winchester as there is no depot there... bad for playing with historical attrition.
So the solution would be placing the force and a depot on Winchester, or placing a independent depot where the force begins or deeper up the valley and move Johnston there.
For example, placing a depot on Harrisonburg and moving Johnston there would solve both problems as it will also give supply to the 3rd Reserve Brigade.
But... this area is not rail connected...

Other possibility: put a depot on Rocksbridge area and move Johnson force down there... as here there is rail.

In all this cases, having depot down on the valley would spice up the strategic interest of the area. As it is now, south of Winchester the area is pretty empty...

Just my 2 cents.

I'm not so sure about adding further depots or moving the force. Given the activation rule for offensive movement it could create further problems if Johnston's force is moved and then you are unlucky with activation.

I think I'd prefer for a smaller number of elements to be missing to begin with but I suppose that change would not be easy to implement and would require some sort of Northern balance.

I would though move the 3rd Reserve it is a pain. Its no real problem to overcome when you know how to play. Like Jabber I move a supply wagon to them even before they arrive but it makes no sense to have a force appear, that is locked in place for several turns, that is out of supply.

[Jabberwock]

I do like the strategic possibilities that Jagger's mod adds to the Shenadoah Valley, by the addition of a couple new level 1 towns. Since the idea of adding depots or supplies has been brought up, maybe this solution deserves more exploration.

[GShock]

I do like the strategic possibilities that Jagger's mod adds to the Shenadoah Valley, by the addition of a couple new level 1 towns. Since the idea of adding depots or supplies has been brought up, maybe this solution deserves more exploration.

I'm afraid the problem of supplies is too easy with the algorythm. Towns produce lots of supplies, most end up totally unused and...i think, if a town has so many supplies, what's the point of building a depot there, to attract more unused supplies? Ultimately the thing that makes me think the most, is the fact that when a town has so many supplies, it *is* a depot in its essence...because it stores supplies which is the real use of a real depot.

Maybe the ultimate solution is to leave the supplies where they are and only forward towards forts and depots...at that point from the depot it's all about supply wagons....but it's just an opinion, another option would be to add a limit to how many supplies a town can hold without having a depot built by the player. Another option would be to add 1-3 supply elements to the Army HQ (thus also making its replacement useful) and/or lower the price of supply wagons.

There are an infinite number of possibilities to improve the game in this field.

[Coregonas]

I always send a supply wagon out there, sometimes starting on its way even before the unit appears.

When playing alone, I prefer sending my Wagons to front areas, to reduce Railroad assets.

I ve found sending just a full supplied cavalry or two in the last moments gives enough supply for the turns needed, while spending a bit less railroad.

[Coregonas]

I ve never purchased a single wagon for CSA.

Never had the skill to get more corps than wagons existing in the original
deployment. (Except playing versus standard Athena long ago)

So extra wagons should give +10% to independent brigades so better to buy extra troops (at least a medium sized artillery brigade and an extra brig)

Seems to me investing the cost on them is EXTREMELY less efective than investing in RR assets or simply in more troops.

Not sure if too costly.

[arsan]

I'm afraid the problem of supplies is too easy with the algorythm. Towns produce lots of supplies, most end up totally unused and...i think, if a town has so many supplies, what's the point of building a depot there, to attract more unused supplies? Ultimately the thing that makes me think the most, is the fact that when a town has so many supplies, it *is* a depot in its essence...because it stores supplies which is the real use of a real depot.

Maybe the ultimate solution is to leave the supplies where they are and only forward towards forts and depots...at that point from the depot it's all about supply wagons....but it's just an opinion, another option would be to add a limit to how many supplies a town can hold without having a depot built by the player. Another option would be to add 1-3 supply elements to the Army HQ (thus also making its replacement useful) and/or lower the price of supply wagons.

There are an infinite number of possibilities to improve the game in this field.

Well, your ideas are not really related with what we are discussing here now...
But still... playing with hardened attrition option enabled depots are VERY important. Not only because of the supplies, but because you can only recover missing element on a depot.
This suppose basically, that Jonhston force needs to spend at least 4 turns sitting on a depot just to achieve his nominal strength...
Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

Yes seems that is.

Just Jhonston Army has not these starve problems, because they have a Wagon, and gets supply.


They just have no replacements (only 50 men/ turn.) -> Up to 500 men per element if adequate replacements build (no free repls. for Light infantry or Arty ).

EDIT::: Can the game Engine consider than an Army has DEPOT advantages (i.e. attract supply to them) if in a (connected) Railroad area???

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

I had a couple division sized commands in Virginia Area frontier with West Virginia with these supply problems, as they had no depots/wagons near, including some cities.

I had 3/3 supply both on river / RR (CSA), and lots of supply in several nearby depots (but no so nearby seemed)

I ve assumed always this was WAD, but perhaps it was not the idea.

[Coregonas]

Towns produce lots of supplies, most end up totally unused and...i think, if a town has so many supplies, what's the point of building a depot there, to attract more unused supplies?

I dont know exactly, but I believe than the problem with the south was even more the transport to front line troops out of depots than the production figures.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[arsan]

Hi!
Beside historical use of rails as supply sources, i think game wise the supply system is all right as it is now.
If any area with railroad and no structure could transfer/attract supplies to any unit there would be too much supply around, a little use to supply units.

It would be a radical change of the system which will involve lots of work, tweak and test
Sounds something for a future AACW2 maybe

Bear in mind that regular unit with no wagon can carry with them 30 days of food around... much more than historically. Beyond those two turns, depots and the use of wagons as a supply magnet is the way to go.
Even if abstracted, for me, it works OK.

As Coregonas said, Johnston force has no supply issues. Just a strength and replacements recovery issue.

Regards!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Franciscus]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, try to not overcomplicate the matters...

I would just like to reinforce the idea that the main problem is not how supplies are managed in the game, but simply the fact that Johnston's force can get supplies but no "replacements" (elements) for his brigades, while locked - and this is solved by starting him in Winchester (I have done this for months now) or buliding a depot where he appears. If there is no design reason on the contrary, I would say that this should be corrected in the vanilla game.
The 3rd brigade should just appear in a city, and I think that it would solve also easily the reported problems

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jabberwock]

I ve never purchased a single wagon for CSA.

That's good to know. I expect I will be able to give you some experience in that regard.

[Brochgale]

What this I keep reading about "captured depot" bug? Have not noticed anything out of the ordinary in games I have played so far.

I never leave any depot ungarrisoned if it is within reach of enemy. If I have read earlier posts correctly?

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Franciscus]

I was already comtemplating the moving of the "3rd Reserve Bde" into either Charlottesville or Covington.

Starting Johnston in Winchester changes the situation for Winchester itself as fas as the Union is concerned. Generally, there is somewhat of a possibility that the Union can seize and hold Winchester. With Johnston's force starting in Winchester, there is almost zero chance due to the advantage of entrenchment starting sooner... This of course is referring to a Union game against the CSA AI.

I personally favor placing a depot in Warren, VA along with Johnston's force, as long as the "captured depot" bug gets fixed.

I understand your points but I think that they might not be that important. Winchester in "real" history was initially in CSA hands. Of course if and when confederate forces abandon the valley, Winchester might be easily be captured by USA (as did happen, several times in "reality" and might happen in the game). But if an army was present in Winchester that would not be so easy - as it should be.
As to the depots, I personally fail to see such disadvantage of a depot, left unguarded, being captured with the supplies. That was what hapenned in 2nd Manassas, after all... on the contrary, the presence of such a good prize in the Shenandoah would greatly increase the strategic value of the valley for both players (again, as in "real" history"), making the game even more interesting.
I personally also favor making a depot in Warren.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Brochgale]

I understand your points but I think that they might not be that important. Winchester in "real" history was initially in CSA hands. Of course if and when confederate forces abandon the valley, Winchester might be easily be captured by USA (as did happen, several times in "reality" and might happen in the game). But if an army was present in Winchester that would not be so easy - as it should be.
As to the depots, I personally fail to see such disadvantage of a depot, left unguarded, being captured with the supplies. That was what hapenned in 2nd Manassas, after all... on the contrary, the presence of such a good prize in the Shenandoah would greatly increase the strategic value of the valley for both players (again, as in "real" history"), making the game even more interesting.
I personally also favor making a depot in Warren.

April61 Harpers Ferry was in hands of CSA but Johston elected to withdraw from it as he reasoned from a strategic point of view that he could not defend it and that Winchester was more defensible. A debatable point considering how many times it changed hands during the real war.

The Shenandoah was certainly more important but within the context of ACW there is nothing there worth defending and no incentive really for player to keep forces that cant get replacements easily from staying there? Also as another player has pointed out when supply wagons run low then Shenandoah force is in real trouble if Feds come in force? There is a sound argument historically at least for having a depot in Shenandoah/Warren.

[Jabberwock]

Is an additional depot, as opposed to a town with no depot or no change at the north end of the Valley, desirable from a historical or game balance standpoint? Staunton certainly seems justifiable as a full fledged depot.

[Gray_Lensman]

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