Does The War Shed Light On the Future of Enlightened Government?

[Le Ricain]

It was rumored....remember hes related somewhere in the family tree to old G. Washington....he owned Washingtons old plantation in Alexandria Va....Old Mac promised him he would never shell it with union artillary cause of the historical value.(although it could have been considered southern contraband that needs to be destroyed)

Little Mac did post sentries to guard Lee's Alexandria property. As the plantation was abandoned it was used as a burial ground by the army. It is now Arlington National Cemetary. Little Mac's guarding of the property actually did not go Lee any good.

[Coregonas]

But again Cor...we specifically didnt NEED a war in Vietnam to accomplish that, if all we wanted to do was crank out more war time production, we could have choose anywhere, and many places would have had a higher degree of sucess possibility.

Yes...

But you need some "Casus Belli" or convince your population to do that.

It is hard to create a false casus belli... you must control all the media, and some times it is not posible.

Remember our leaders are elected for a "short" 3,4 or 5 years mandate, they have no plenty of time for doing as they wish.

When "Conservative" leaders arise, expect a lot more lies to us the populace... (in spain conservative is "the right", in USA "republicans", in other countries "liberals", in other even democrats!)..

I m traveling near 100 times a year by plane... I want to specially thank someone for all those hours lost in controls in the airports!

[pepe4158]

ha-ha I imagine Le, thks for the note, yeah I just knew he promised not to shell it with artillary, which was Lees main concern, I imagine the posting of guards made it harder to work for profit eh?

Say Le too (added in afterthought)....as I remember however, the southern high command elite, was much more happy with Mac and his treatment of their citizenary as a whole, versus the northern leadership to come, the south viewed Mac as at least a gentleman, where the rest they considered barbarians, especially Burnside, hence you have one poster alleging southern hatred of the north, which I contend actually comes latter.

The hatred issue actually is best explained in a country song here called, 'the night they drove ol dixie down.' where northerners are viewed as Gluttons and taking more then they needed from the south......hence the line, take what you need and leave the rest, but they shouldnt have taken the very best.' because they take the train for demolition called the "Robert E Lee."

[pepe4158]

Yes...

When "Conservative" leaders arise, expect a lot more lies to us the populace... (in spain conservative is "the right", in USA "republicans", in other countries "liberals", in other even democrats!)..

Hmm I beg to differ its really any different on the lying part. Right now the left in america clearly has the momentum, I fail to see any more honesty out of our socialist and communism leaning leaders here in the USA. Aka Stalin probably the biggest political liar in history and he certainly was a lefty.

[Coregonas]

Hmm I beg to differ its really any different on the lying part. Right now the left in america clearly has the momentum, I fail to see any more honesty out of our socialist and communism leaning leaders here in the USA. Aka Stalin probably the biggest political liar in history and he certainly was a lefty.

I prefer to agree with you as
1.- You have +20 skill points in debate skill (+5 especialized in southerner american language)... I have lost-5 points in this thread!
2.- Yes really both leader-types are going to lie us for an equal... (but perhaps I am blind right lies seem to me creating bigger problems)

[pepe4158]

I think Core the lefty lies tend to luer us to sleep n dreamland, where right lies are easier to see thru, the left lies that we are all going to be just equal n fair, and do the same amount of work appeals to our sense of fairness but really isnt practical, what about personal reasponsibility and other concepts?

[Coregonas]

Yes this is the way it is...

But society advances step by step thanks to these utopias

[Brochgale]

Hard to believe the US wanted Vietnam for its resources Kieth so afraid I disagree; the US involvement was actually our paranoia of ideology and principles. We were sold a bill of goods that if we didnt stop Communism by force, it would spread thru all of southeast asia and the US was extremly paranoid of communistc ideology at this time.

Funny I dont want to get too political, but the top democratic vote getter right now is as left as anyone in US politics has ever been, I dare say even more then FDR and has so much in common with Marxist theories on economics and a lot of US citizens embrace him wholly so suprising what a couple generations can do.

The native american wars were actually a better case (that you cited Keith) as many white US citizens wanted the gold that was in sacred indian burial grounds in the moutains of indian land. Thus you have the great union CW hero, General Custer, getting slaughtered by indians.

If poontang isn't a resource - then what is? hey considering what has been happenning with the price of rice lately maybe it was part of some dubious plan to corner the rice market?

[Rafiki]

If poontang isn't a resource - then what is?

[color="Red"]Let's keep the toilet talk out of the thread, shall we?

The moments of discussion relating to the ACW is what keeps this thread open, but foul language will get it closed pretty fast.

Regards,
Rafiki
Friendly Neighborhood Admin[/color]

[Brochgale]

[color="Red"]Let's keep the toilet talk out of the thread, shall we?

The moments of discussion relating to the ACW is what keeps this thread open, but foul language will get it closed pretty fast.

Regards,
Rafiki
Friendly Neighborhood Admin[/color]

I apologise for any offense taken by anyone.

[pepe4158]

OMG but it was funny RAF


We saw the worst cases of VD (STD's) ever in US history from US soldiers comming back from Nam, and thats only history trivia...the whys are left out for good reason.

You know Raf there is a dicey concept in the game with the two spys, Pinkerton was a dedective yes....but the southern counter-part you put in the game, well she could be considered by some to be a lady of the evening so to speak

Thought Id add this concerning southern hatred towards the north...hope it works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_ksYL26lZE&feature=related

(check this out skibear, may be kinda hard for some of you Europeans to fiqure out cuz Joan sings it with a slight southern confederate accent lol)

[Rafiki]

That's not why she was included in the game, so I consider it irrelevant. That someone considers something to be "funny" (where "mileage may vary" in any case) does not justify foulness.

[pepe4158]

He-he imagine not Raf...however the link I included dealt with another subject tho, the hatered latter towards the north by the south.
The Link I put in was to try and help Ski understand the animosity that starts to develop between the north and south, as there really isnt a lot in the beginning, just too many differences real or imagined to stay united.

For years to come nothing but bitterness towards the north, and before only Kinship, does the name, 'Jessie James' or 'Cole Younger' ring a bell? They were targeting northern bankers, who they felt were responsable for the souths sufferring...I dare say similar to Hitler blaming the, 'Jews.'

(added latter)Comon no one want to challenge me on this lol....I quess all you Europeans are too shocked by 'Broches' lil inuendo eh? ...lol I should be most offended being as I am US born (and not offended), almost served in Vietnam, just a bit too young as I quit high school to join the army during the fall of Saigon, n my wife IS asian (I can tesitfy they slug down rice like its water there OMG)

Where I am going with this is most of you Europeans seem to be alledging war is usually about $ n resources, and I am contending cultural differences play a huge role too, and I think your negelecting their importance, the, 'why cant we just get along question?'

[Brochgale]

He-he imagine not Raf...however the link I included dealt with another subject tho, the hatered latter towards the north by the south.
The Link I put in was to try and help Ski understand the animosity that starts to develop between the north and south, as there really isnt a lot in the beginning, just too many differences real or imagined to stay united.

For years to come nothing but bitterness towards the north, and before only Kinship, does the name, 'Jessie James' or 'Cole Younger' ring a bell? They were targeting northern bankers, who they felt were responsable for the souths sufferring...I dare say similar to Hitler blaming the, 'Jews.'

(added latter)Comon no one want to challenge me on this lol....I quess all you Europeans are too shocked by 'Broches' lil inuendo eh? ...lol I should be most offended being as I am US born (and not offended), almost served in Vietnam, just a bit too young as I quit high school to join the army during the fall of Saigon, n my wife IS asian (I can tesitfy they slug down rice like its water there OMG)

Where I am going with this is most of you Europeans seem to be alledging war is usually about $ n resources, and I am contending cultural differences play a huge role too, and I think your negelecting their importance, the, 'why cant we just get along question?'

My fiance also happens to be an Asian girl. Her sense of humour is an acquired taste? But then she will laugh at anything and sing a song about it as well?
One of my cousins served in Nam - as part of the Aussies force that served there in the early days of the war. He had an different view on things.Cultural differnences he argued were very little as most people the world over share the same values?So war has to be about something other than cultural differences.
As for Europeans being offended about my ineudos - well In Thailand I was a farang and in China - a gweilo. I can understand this considering the way most Europeans behave when they are in Asia. I think that most people the world over share the same values - hard work, family etc?Racism and cultural differnces dont enter the equation. Although it is a debatable point?
My cousin is married to a vietnamese girl and she has a peculiar viewpoint on the nam war.I think one of the most rabidly anti commies I ever met. Even more so than any american I met or European for that matter.

[pepe4158]

?Racism and cultural differnces dont enter the equation. Although it is a debatable point?

As Jabber said most things discussed her are subjective......your quote was the only point you seemed to want to make? ....n yes i am debating that lol, hence I included the song as my proof, and I see no proof to back up your claim it doesnt enter the equation, only your statement I am to take as fact?

[Brochgale]

As Jabber said most things discussed her are subjective......your quote was the only point you seemed to want to make? ....n yes i am debating that lol, hence I included the song as my proof, and I see no proof to back up your claim it doesnt enter the equation, only your statement I am to take as fact?

I think that most people of intelligence who share the same values in common can find a way to get round tensions etc that might lead to violence.

I accept that ther are cultural differnces between people. However I think that the world over we all share the following values - loyalty to our family, hard work etc. It does not matter what our religion is, or our colour, or our langauge. Also we all like to kick back and enjoy our free time doing what pleases us.

Somewhere along the line we get power hungry politicians and greedy individuals who are never satisfied with even comfortable lives interfereering with what people are naturally inclined to do amongst themselves.

I speak for myself in this in that I would not make war on someone who is of a different race, ethnic origon or religion to me just because they are different. I would however make war on someone who tried to force thier their religion and langauge on me. I live in a different age from that of my ancestors. Who had I suspect far harder lives than I now lead?

I would make war to keep what I have - I might be educated and enlightened perhaps by education but war for me is all about keeping what I have or what I would like to have?

Even people who shared the same race, religion and culture have been known to make war on each other. So as far as I would argue - cultural differences dont come into the equation?

[pepe4158]

I think that most people of intelligence who share the same values in common can find a way to get round tensions etc that might lead to violence.----dont bet on it, if you bet your shiirt, youl probably be walking around naked

Somewhere along the line we get power hungry politicians and greedy individuals who are never satisfied with even comfortable lives interfereering with what people are naturally inclined to do amongst themselves.---that I dont doubt, I never said $ WASNT a factor

I speak for myself in this in that I would not make war on someone who is of a different race, ethnic origon or religion to me just because they are different. I would however make war on someone who tried to force thier their religion and langauge on me. I live in a different age from that of my ancestors. Who had I suspect far harder lives than I now lead?--------------------Yes, but were talking about causes of the ACW in paticular, and they WERE squabling about such matters, tho the south didnt want to kill the north because they were so different, only seperate, as Davis said, 'all we ask is to be left alone.


Even people who shared the same race, religion and culture have been known to make war on each other. So as far as I would argue - cultural differences dont come into the equation?------------------------------------hmm what about in Africa where the muslum tribes and christian tribes are killing each other in groves, or for any other supposed difference?

N thats just the way I see it lol

[Rafiki]

[color="Red"]pepe, quoting someone and then editing that quote to contain your own words is very bad form and for all practical purposes nothing short of putting your own words in someone else's mouth.

In general, this thread has more than run it's course. I have received complaints about it, both publically and in private. It's relevance to AGEOD's games is increasingly difficult to see, and I am therefore drawing the line here.[/color]