Does The War Shed Light On the Future of Enlightened Government?

[Brochgale]

It is hard to remember another (the main) reason, why wars are started apart from money .

Any other reason that is told to us the populace is simply a lie .

Well perhaps some one can find an example. But sure money is also in the reason list of that war.

I dont rate the Second World War as being about money - Hitler had to be stopped?
But generally I agree with you War is about expansionism to acquire money/oil/resources and dare I say it - women?

[pepe4158]

Yeah you Europeans generally know more about WWII ....but wasnt it mostly about revenge I thought....but surely the resource=$ thing had a factor as Hitler wanted that strip thru Poland for financial reasons too..........
Hope I didnt side track too much.

Say does lead me to another question...will we ever see an Ageod WWII game...or is that too touchy a subject still for you Europeans....comon... I wana see Patton trying to charge around the flank of Kesselring....Monty versus Romnel lol

Did you guys know many of the tactics used by both sides were copied from the american civil war/ One of Mansteins greatest moves he copied from Lee's Chanclerville battle many history buffs here know

[soloswolf]

I dont rate the Second World War as being about money - Hitler had to be stopped?

Of course. But Lend/Lease? Destroyers for bases? The open pocketbook of American industry?

I am with you that stopping the Nazis was a huge factor, but you don't need to look farther than the end of the war to see that money drives everything... The fact that for the next 50+ years we were trying to out-muscle the Reds and their followers, and at the heart of that struggle were two economic/political ideologies. (That's what we call full circle! :niark

[Skibear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Army#Ethnic_groups

The Union recruited 2.2 million soldiers of which 0.2 million were black. Of the white soldiers, 75% were American born. If you include the black soldiers, then 91% of the Union army was American born and 9% were foreign born.

In the CSA, 91% of her soldiers were American born and 9% were foreign born.

Those figures you give dont quite add up Recain. If there were 2 million white soldiers and 25% werent american born thats 500,000.
500,000 of the total 2.2million inc colored troops is still 23%. Thats a pretty large percentage of any army to be foreign born.

I think Pepe's comment about appealling to the European immigrant anti-slavery tendencies actually makes quite alot of sense. Obviously the majority of European immigrants did seem to head for the north. But that said many of them probably wouldnt have given much of a toss about slaves or their fate. Many would have seen joining the army as a route to citizenship, which makes more sense of why so many foreigners who undounbtedly came to the new world for economic reasons would join a foreign army to fight in a war that didnt have much to do with them really.

[Brochgale]

Yeah you Europeans generally know more about WWII ....but wasnt it mostly about revenge I thought....but surely the resource=$ thing had a factor as Hitler wanted that strip thru Poland for financial reasons too..........
Hope I didnt side track too much.

Say does lead me to another question...will we ever see an Ageod WWII game...or is that too touchy a subject still for you Europeans....comon... I wana see Patton trying to charge around the flank of Kesselring....Monty versus Romnel lol

Did you guys know many of the tactics used by both sides were copied from the american civil war/ One of Mansteins greatest moves he copied from Lee's Chanclerville battle many history buffs here know

WW2 is not a touchy subject for me - consider myself Scottish and not European though. Several of my uncles saw service in that war - they all survived it. I dont think they thought much about the reasons for the war - they just served as they consider it thier duty to do so. They all volunteered - not one of them waited to be conscripted.

One of my uncles spent whole of war in a POW camp after the 51st was politically sacrifced to send a message to French?

If the Brits and French generals had studied Chancellorsville then perhaps Dunkirk would not have happenned? The Wehrmacht found the weakpoint - much like Jackson I suspect and pressed and pressed? It is obvious that the Soviets had not when there turn came?

In WW1 they only took the lessons supplied by Lee/Longstreet etc after Gettysburg - trench warfare and not the mobility we saw at Chancellorsville.My grandfathers generation were not so lucky.

In both cases it took the Americans to bail out the Brits and French?But then Brit and French generals proved themslves to be Jackassess in both wars?

Hate did not come into it my uncles thinking either. Tradition played a bigger part in thier decisions to volunteer? It is ironic though that those who fought against the Germans in WW2 are more forgiving than those who had to fight the Japanese.

[pepe4158]

Yeah the Japanesse at the time were brutal victors; we hung most of their generals after the war for alleged war crimes.
Love to see a Ageod war either covering the war in Europe....or the Pacific war....not both for sure as that covers too much IMO, and the beauty of Ageod games are their nice detailed maps IMO with room to manuver....wish sometiimes as Jabber has alluded to even more?...with more breakdowns.

Not tottal jackasses tho luckly Broch...old Monty gave Romnel (German best) quite a whipping Id say lol, before we even showed up for your guys little party lol

Yeah Ski...Ellis Island NY...was always the traditional entry point for immigrants from Europe to the USA as they had been told there was plenty of land available and better opportunities. I dare say the conditions were appauling and looked somewhat like a concentration camp during the ACW.

I dont know the exact history there, but I imagine there was a union army recruiting station on every corner hawking, 'Get your free citizanship here, just sign on the dotted line.' lol

[kgostanek]

Are politicians in Washington any more benign today or for that matter is govt anywhere today more benign than in times past?

I think this brings up a good point. However, the reason that some societies are more benign than others is because their economies produce comfort. Even our poor afford entertainment. Comfort satiates.

I also think that we do become more benign as knowledge evolves too. For example, when people realized that dogs have a conscious experience and feel pain, they began to give them anesthetic during operations.

Here's my little "theory" about all this. Suppose that, as our ancestors were evolving on the plains of Africa, that one group of humans were born benign. They didn't steal, lie, cheat, strive for dominance through aggression, or desire to harm others, physically or emotionally.

But in that environment, that benign group would simply not be able to compete against the groups that were territorial and whose members competed amongst each other for rank, status, members of the opposite sex, and all that.

Those societies were naturally predisposed to war, because those who made war best exported their societies and so existed. So, what if these instincts are pretty much ingrained? We can set up a society where we accept that competition will exist, but instead of bloody coups every week, we channel that competition into more fruitful outcomes?

So, we create a society where the individual leads his life as he sees fit, "the pursuit of happiness," so long as he doesn't interfere with others' lives. People achieve status and wealth in any way other than violence. If, for example, someone wants to be a big shot, he might create something that others find valuable and charge a fee less than or equal to what people are willing to pay for it, and so get wealthy.

Any other system, like communism or fascism, that denounces private ownership will express competition in other ways, often violent. That was the big mistake of communism - Marx didn't realize that the desire for ownership was nested within the most fundamental desire - status. The other problem with that society is that the state makes a determination of value that usually differs from what individuals value. Creativity is stymied.

So, yes, free-market constitutional republics are more benign than any in history because they allow competition and status, but don't allow strong arm methods. I think an absolutely benign society would be full of enlightened buddhas, but individual effort creates buddhas, not society.

[Coregonas]

I dont rate the Second World War as being about money - Hitler had to be stopped?
But generally I agree with you War is about expansionism to acquire money/oil/resources and dare I say it - women?

Some of the real causes (than made the people join Hitler ideas) of the WWII are (I m not talking about the just or injust):

German tremendous debt to the French&others due to the WWI (people were paying their grandfathers fault)
High level of unemployment in Germany
"Stealed" regions (resources/money) from core germany to some neighbours
and so on....
In Japan no oil nor resources for "proper" development
Remember USA OIL Embargo!!! This just "forced" them to the attack -> USA intel was "lucky" to hide away his CVs.

6 years after the main wars started (1936- china / spain---) USA entered WAR.... ohhh yes USA aided the poor good men of the world 6 years after...

Are you sure USA started war becasue hitler was a bad boy?.... Well it was due to this ALSO...

[Coregonas]

Not tottal jackasses tho luckly Broch...old Monty gave Romnel (German best) quite a whipping Id say lol, before we even showed up for your guys little party lol

I believe Rommel is overrated... Well we was really GOOD. Just made war in 1-1 odds and won.
Manstein /Guderian are for my point of view some examples long better. They made war 1-3 odds and won.

Without wanting to be "unrespectful" with Rommel (one of my favourite generals of course) is just more "FAMOUS" as USA film industry has elevated him to the category of - DEMIGOD-- to allow some USA above average generals that won him 3-1 odds to achieve GOD category as they won him.

Who in the World (not a wargaming addict) knows about a military WWII general appart from Rommel/Patton & Montgomery? Perhaps Yamamoto?

Guderian? ehh?
Manstein? Whats that?
Zhukov... Is this an african tree?
Hoth? is it a new kind of car?
...
All of us know about Custer & Patton ... however.

Just try asking a boy 15 years old...

Any "government" tries to lie, as told before, to allow the illuminati get the real power

[pepe4158]

In Japan no oil nor resources for "proper" development
Remember USA OIL Embargo!!! This just "forced" them to the attack -> USA intel was "lucky" to hide away his CVs.
...

Lol yup...admiral Halsey thought the rest of the admirals were idiots to think Pearl Harbor was safe---hence he was out to sea when the raid hit.

[soloswolf]

I believe Rommel is overrated... Well we was really GOOD. Just made war in 1-1 odds and won.

Where was he fighting 1-1? Not in in the Ardennes. Not while racing across France. Not in Africa. Not during the Allied landings or beyond. When exactly?

He was the man for his time and place. Certainly not a demi-god, but better than good. I think his military reputation is well deserved.

[Le Ricain]

ok Le...here in the states we consider you 2nd generation immigrants still foreigners, as you DONT exclusivly speak english.....granted a lot of 2nd and third generation people served and are classified US born, but to the people that have lived here longer in the states, if you speak to your dad and mom in their native language, other then english, your still a foreigner.

Hence the different brigades in the union, are speaking to each other in Dutch, Galic(irish), Scottish, and German. (very foreign concept to most americans at the time.)

yankee recruiters (and draft boards) went after the poorer classes, which were generally first, n second generation americans. Again here in the states, we consider those people still foreigners, as you are right to point out tho they are technically US citizens. However when we here them speak another language other then english, most rooted americans mutter to themself (dam% foreigner)

Southern brigades spoke almost exclusively english....hence viewed our stereo-typical american (also same religious beliefs generally where north is a multi-mix)

Yeah i tend to also think of the northern army as just the eastern theater, and i know i am wrong to do so.

I agree that the majority of Union soldiers (45%) were not of British descent although Americans by birth. However, I would suggest that you need to reconsider Scot-Americans as foreigners. General Winfield Scott's father came from Scotland making him a second generation American, but a foreigner by your definition. I do not think that anyone ever considered Scott a foreigner.

Other prominent Scot-Americans who served in the Confederate army include JEB Stuart, Joe Johnston, Stonewall Jackson, John Gordon, Edward Alexander, John Magruder, William Macrae and all of the Andersons.

Although the majority of Confederate brigades spoke English, the second language of the army was French due to presence of Louisiana troops (Beauregard in particular).

[Le Ricain]

Those figures you give dont quite add up Recain. If there were 2 million white soldiers and 25% werent american born thats 500,000.
500,000 of the total 2.2million inc colored troops is still 23%. Thats a pretty large percentage of any army to be foreign born.

I think Pepe's comment about appealling to the European immigrant anti-slavery tendencies actually makes quite alot of sense. Obviously the majority of European immigrants did seem to head for the north. But that said many of them probably wouldnt have given much of a toss about slaves or their fate. Many would have seen joining the army as a route to citizenship, which makes more sense of why so many foreigners who undounbtedly came to the new world for economic reasons would join a foreign army to fight in a war that didnt have much to do with them really.

Skilbear,

You are, of course, correct. I did not mean to imply that the percentages were the same. I just typed the Confederate percentages twice.

I would think that the attraction of the army for immigrants had less to do with citizenship and more to do with the enlistment bonuses. You did say they came for economic reasons. The federal bonus for enlisting was $ 100 in 1861 and rose to $ 300 by 1863, plus possible state bonuses.

[pepe4158]

Although the majority of Confederate brigades spoke English, the second language of the army was French due to presence of Louisiana troops (Beauregard in particular).

Yeah thats Cajun country; a real different exception to the south; Its funny, someone alluded to the fact that blacks didnt volunteer for the CSA....here was the exception as black people were almost treated as equals by french decent southeners, unheard of in most of the south.

[Le Ricain]

Some of the real causes (than made the people join Hitler ideas) of the WWII are (I m not talking about the just or injust):

German tremendous debt to the French&others due to the WWI (people were paying their grandfathers fault)
High level of unemployment in Germany
"Stealed" regions (resources/money) from core germany to some neighbours
and so on....
In Japan no oil nor resources for "proper" development
Remember USA OIL Embargo!!! This just "forced" them to the attack -> USA intel was "lucky" to hide away his CVs.

6 years after the main wars started (1936- china / spain---) USA entered WAR.... ohhh yes USA aided the poor good men of the world 6 years after...

Are you sure USA started war becasue hitler was a bad boy?.... Well it was due to this ALSO...

The Germans reparations paid after WWI was actually less than reparation paid by France after the Franco-Prussian war.

I think that complaining that the US only entered the 6 years after the start is a bit of a stretch. Britain, France, Germany, Poland and SU only entered in 1939 and the US in 1941.

[pepe4158]

2 years....yeah we were late to the party again lol...but at least we made it?

[pepe4158]

General Winfield Scott's father came from Scotland making him a second generation American, but a foreigner by your definition. I do not think that anyone ever considered Scott a foreigner.
.

He-he of course not, Scott was a Virginian and a southener, being southern born myself I know the fact that we would beat english into you if you dont want to speak it. Anyone dared call Scott one of them there foreigners would be walking a pistol deul of ten paces lol

Le I dunno, maybe its an elitest type of attitude by my fellow countrymen, but we hear you talking english, your a true american, your speaking another language like the northern brigades, your one of them there foreigners, n the dam$ yanks are using foreigners to kill us is the southern attitude of the time. Although the south was guilty of the same trying to get mercenaries to fill their people depleated ranks.

Le Im just trying to convey a feeling of the people of this time, their attitudes; dont confuse me with facts lol

[Le Ricain]

He-he of course not, Scott was a Virginian and a southener, being southern born myself I know the fact that we would beat english into you if you dont want to speak it. Anyone dared call Scott one of them there foreigners would be walking a pistol deul of ten paces lol

Le I dunno, maybe its an elitest type of attitude by my fellow countrymen, but we hear you talking english, your a true american, your speaking another language like the northern brigades, your one of them there foreigners, n the dam$ yanks are using foreigners to kill us is the southern attitude of the time. Although the south was guilty of the same trying to get mercenaries to fill their people depleated ranks.

Le Im just trying to convey a feeling of the people of this time, their attitudes; dont confuse me with facts lol

I agree completely with your statements on how 19th century Americans would have viewed immigrants. I was merely suggesting that Scots would not have been included in that group, sharing the same language (sort of) and religion.

[Coregonas]

The Germans reparations paid after WWI was actually less than reparation paid by France after the Franco-Prussian war.

I think that complaining that the US only entered the 6 years after the start is a bit of a stretch. Britain, France, Germany, Poland and SU only entered in 1939 and the US in 1941.

Im not complaining about just or injust payments... just showing economic matters are really behind wars.

German sent regular troops (Pz I & 88s... planes...) to spanish civil war in mid 1936... Just a few regiments of course. Italy sent several divisions & his powerful fleet helping.

Japan started his war vs china on 1936...

mid 36 up to end 41 is nearly 5,5 years... yes i can understand Spain & china didnt really count in the economy for the big ones (oh what a surprise, again, money)

[keith]

off the top of my head, with the possible exception of religion it would be difficult to think off any war that was not about finance,resources or land all of which boil down to money. Even so called constitutional republics and democracies of all kinds endulge in wars over the above regardless off the moral rights or wrongs, the examples are endless = the us 'wars' against american native tribes, the french wars in algeria, the boar war, the french attempts to hold on to vietnam after ww2, the us in vietnam, and off course all british colonial wars in india

no one has the right to claim any moral victories, virtually all countries/peoples/races have started wars at some stage, its just the way we are, pretty sad really dont you think

[pepe4158]

Hard to believe the US wanted Vietnam for its resources Kieth so afraid I disagree; the US involvement was actually our paranoia of ideology and principles. We were sold a bill of goods that if we didnt stop Communism by force, it would spread thru all of southeast asia and the US was extremly paranoid of communistc ideology at this time.

Funny I dont want to get too political, but the top democratic vote getter right now is as left as anyone in US politics has ever been, I dare say even more then FDR and has so much in common with Marxist theories on economics and a lot of US citizens embrace him wholly so suprising what a couple generations can do.

The native american wars were actually a better case (that you cited Keith) as many white US citizens wanted the gold that was in sacred indian burial grounds in the moutains of indian land. Thus you have the great union CW hero, General Custer, getting slaughtered by indians.

[pepe4158]

I agree completely with your statements on how 19th century Americans would have viewed immigrants. I was merely suggesting that Scots would not have been included in that group, sharing the same language (sort of) and religion.

Le its a matter of who has immersed themsleves into american culture, Scott had undergone full immersion into american culture. Many of the northern European brigade soldiers (union) were still clinging to their European roots, hence, viewed as foreigners still by the average american Joe here in the north or south.

Really funny tho...that even thought the south has always prided itself on american patriotism, under close analysis the CW era south actually had much more in common with Europeans, just in a really latent and hidden way.

Yeah, funny on the religon angle, if I remember correctly, Lee was still a member of, The church of England.' (altho most southeners probably didnt know it lol) and he grew to be the example of southern americanism.

[keith]

ok i.ll give you vietnam had little in the way of resources, allthough the arms industry made a few dollars but i think in general my argument holds. wars make people rich usually powerful people, industrialists etc.

[Brochgale]

Le its a matter of who has immersed themsleves into american culture, Scott had undergone full immersion into american culture. Many of the northern European brigade soldiers (union) were still clinging to their European roots, hence, viewed as foregners still by the average american Joe here in the north or south.

Really funny tho...that even thought the south has always prided itself on american patriotism, under close analysis the CW era south actually had much more in common with Europeans, just in a really latent and hidden way.

Yeah, funny on the religon angle, if I remember correctly, Lee was still a member of, The church of England.' (altho most southeners probably didnt know it lol) and he grew to be the example of southern americanism.

Was Lee really CoE or are you leg pulling? If I were Davis and I knew that I would never have given him the command of ANV.

[pepe4158]

It was rumored....remember hes related somewhere in the family tree to old G. Washington....he owned Washingtons old plantation in Alexandria Va....Old Mac promised him he would never shell it with union artillary cause of the historical value.(although it could have been considered southern contraband that needs to be destroyed)

The founding fathers considered themselves Britts still for the longest time....in the very beggining they only wanted representation if England was going to tax them. Thus the escalation of hostilities, not suprising that many would be church of England members, passed down from G Washington to Lee.

All that mattered to other southeners though, was that he was a gentleman and god-fearing man....thus he grew to be viewed by americans as all that was noble about the south at this time.

Thats why I so much like Duvals (G&G) presentation of Lee much more then Shean's (GB)....Not a whole lot was written on Lees demeanor, but from what we know of him, he appeared to be a very humble and gracious man. Described as you would hardly know he was the commanding general if you saw him on the battlefield. you might mistake him as an elderly colonel.

Shean runs around like a pompous idiot and no one can miss he thinks he is the king and boss of all (I bet Shean inwardly loathes the military)

[TheDoctorKing]

In America the branch of the CoE is called the Episcopal Church. It was the religion of the majority of ruling-class Virginians at the time, so he wouldn't have had to hide it. Today, the Episcopal Church in the south is very low church and many are associated with the Church of Nigeria (!) rather than the Church of the USA because some American dioceses in the North and West have accepted homosexual priests and made liturgical changes they don't like.

There was an Anglican bishop who was a southern General: Leonidas Polk was Bishop of Louisiana and was the last Anglican bishop to be killed in action.

[pepe4158]

thks doc, yeh im not too up on religious matters concerning the south, other then read somewhere he was CoE, n I know the demeanor of southern preachers like Jackson was
Still all in all Doc, wasnt the CoE connection from the early colonial days?
If so not suprising that the south had kept their European roots more latent Aka deuling and CoE connection.

[Qman39]

Thanks to all for the historical correction regarding the duration of republics....I was off base on that comment.

[Coregonas]

Hard to believe the US wanted Vietnam for its resources Kieth so afraid I disagree; the US involvement was actually our paranoia of ideology and principles.

We were sold a bill of goods that if we didnt stop Communism by force, it would spread thru all of southeast asia and the US was extremly paranoid of communistc ideology at this time.

Money to be earned in wars is not to the populace.. is it to the powerful ones.

Sure the weapons enterprises made a good profit with vietnam war... people lives didnt count...

We People are lied by the powerful....

And we are so dumb that vote them once and again... as seems we are egoist and prefer a corrupt and evil government if we can earn 1001€ instead of 1000, even leaving the country totally in bankrupt.

[pepe4158]

But again Cor...we specifically didnt NEED a war in Vietnam to accomplish that, if all we wanted to do was crank out more war time production, we could have choose anywhere, and many places would have had a higher degree of sucess possibility. Again I say we specifically choose Vietnam....because they were just south of Red China, and we thought the Chinesee were our enemy soley because of their involvement with communism.


Nixon after getting the US out of Vietnam, his next act was to visit China as much as possible. Nixon was an idiot when it came to domestic issues and propaganda at home, but was a master statesman as the Chineese people wholly welcomed him.

Ive lived in Asia, and I hate to sound prejudice, so let me say to begin with my wife IS asian. But, communism more just suits the asian people and their culture, as Ive never seen a culture more suited to being little ants that just do as they are told with no compleints as their whole way of life is all about polietness and NOT rocking the boat.

Funny latter R. Reagan, the great conservative hero made quite a distinction between good communists (Chineese) and bad commie (Soviets n evil empire)
I hope I am not side tracking too much.