Question on April '61 CSA fort strengths

[Pdubya64]

Hi all-
I have been away awhile and just today re-installed AACW and patched to v1.09e. I then started a Long Campaign as CSA to make sure the game was working alright. Imagine my surprise when I went to do a cursory check of my units in the coastal forts.

Almost all of the fort defenders, both infantry and batteries are now starting at single digit strength levels (3-4'ish).

My question is what did I miss that caused these to be changed downward so much? It doesn't really matter who did the changes to me but it would be nice to know the "whys and what-fors".

Thanks in advance,
Pdubya

[runyan99]

Dunno.

[Pdubya64]

Anyone at AGEOD able to explain this data change to me?

ouet:

[PhilThib]

When was your last time of play, and which version ? Because the only change I recall on the CSA forts, which was to downsize sharply the garrisons (both infantry and gun batteries) is not that recent (may be 6 months).

The reason behind it is simple: in the older version, the units were also small at start, but had the capacity for 'refill' with replacements...and what happened was that the forts garrisons were siphoning all the regular CSA infantry and artillery replacements for quite a few turns, before the regular army had any chance to get some...resulting in an abnormally weakened army and uselessly strong fort garrisons...

[GShock]

Thinking of this, do the new implements take into account the fact captured arty and fort batteries are depleted...i mean if we can't disband a captured unit to salvage the WS/$ and we can't bring replacements to them is there something planned for these units? (thinking of ft sumter for example)

[Pdubya64]

When was your last time of play, and which version ? Because the only change I recall on the CSA forts, which was to downsize sharply the garrisons (both infantry and gun batteries) is not that recent (may be 6 months).

The reason behind it is simple: in the older version, the units were also small at start, but had the capacity for 'refill' with replacements...and what happened was that the forts garrisons were siphoning all the regular CSA infantry and artillery replacements for quite a few turns, before the regular army had any chance to get some...resulting in an abnormally weakened army and uselessly strong fort garrisons...

Ahhh... I see said the blind man. That would account for it most likely Philippe, as although I have installed some versions later than 1.06, I have not actually played a new long campaign as of yet. Thanks for the clarification, but I do have one more question.
Do Fort garrisons stay at the initial strength now that they don't have the "refill" capability? Or is something else at work?
Thanks!

[arsan]

Hi!
No, they still refill if you have the right replacements.
I think Philippe means that some fort garrisons have now smaller units (for example, just 1 element brigade instead a three element brigade with 2 missing elements who will siphon full replacements on the first turns "stealing" them from the units that really need them (the combat troops on the Virginia armies)
Fort Sumnter for example just have a very depleted lone arty unit so its easely defeated by the CSA on turn one.
Regards

[GShock]

Fort Sumnter for example just have a very depleted lone arty unit so its easely defeated by the CSA on turn one.
Regards

Right...and since CSA can't buy replacements for those captured guns, it means that its scarse resources have to be allocated to captured forts for reinforcements. Insane.

Still the funny thing is that if you buy heavy arty replacement, u'll see it expended...where do these go is impossible to know without logtexts on replacements, what's odd is that there's no hvy arty early in game for CSA and what's certain is that they don't go to reinforce ft. sumter depleted/captured guns.

It takes a few months of experience to get a grip on the countless unclarified issues of the engine...never bought a hvy arty replacement since i discovered this.

[arsan]

Right...and since CSA can't buy replacements for those captured guns, it means that its scarse resources have to be allocated to captured forts for reinforcements. Insane.

Still the funny thing is that if you buy heavy arty replacement, u'll see it expended...where do these go is impossible to know without logtexts on replacements, what's odd is that there's no hvy arty early in game for CSA and what's certain is that they don't go to reinforce ft. sumter depleted/captured guns.

It takes a few months of experience to get a grip on the countless unclarified issues of the engine...never bought a hvy arty replacement since i discovered this.

I think i don't fully understand what you say, sorry...
The CSA heavy arty replacements are spent getting up to strength all the coastal guns the south had on his coastal and river forts. Its pretty clear to me
Of course this is expensive, so probably you can't or want to reinforce them at 100% until you have some spare resources... if ever...
The exception is Ft Sumter battery.
As you say, its captured and can't be reinforced. You must buy a new coastal guns unit for it or put there some field arty unit. But thats not one big priority on my view. You have another two forts protecting Charleston...
Regards

[GShock]

Try buying hvy arty replacement early in the game and u ll see (as CSA) it gets spent though there's nowhere to send it.

My guess is that the engine "tries" to replace on captured units (specifically ft sumter captured fort batteries) and spends the replacement which is not going to refill these units...but it is still spent.

Already pointed out more than once, with CSA running tight on resources, the best policy unfortunately is most of the times buying the unit awhole rather than take replacements for it. In this particular case with hvy arty (as in HQ and in Supply carts) it's very true.

[lodilefty]

Try buying hvy arty replacement early in the game and u ll see (as CSA) it gets spent though there's nowhere to send it.

My guess is that the engine "tries" to replace on captured units (specifically ft sumter captured fort batteries) and spends the replacement which is not going to refill these units...but it is still spent.

Already pointed out more than once, with CSA running tight on resources, the best policy unfortunately is most of the times buying the unit awhole rather than take replacements for it. In this particular case with hvy arty (as in HQ and in Supply carts) it's very true.

Fort and coastal artillery are classified 'heavy' in the DB [and Siege, Columbiad]
There are 17 CSA Fort/Coastal units at startup in April campaign
They all start at 50% strength and 30% cohesion

[USA starts with 13 of them, but only Sumter is weakened at 30%]

[arsan]

As lodilefty explains... you have TON of coasta larty units understrength.
There is where your heavy arty replacement go.
Regards

[arsan]

As lodilefty explains... you have TON of coastal arty units understrength.
There is where your heavy arty replacement go.
I don't see where is the problem
Regards

[Jabberwock]

Fort and coastal artillery are classified 'heavy' in the DB [and Siege, Columbiad]

It's just the Coastals pulling heavy replacements in the first few turns. Fort Batteries are classified as field artillery (which adds a whole new dimension to replacement issues).

[Pdubya64]

Well, it makes perfect sense (for me at least) that any captured artillery wouldn't soak up replacements because it is treated in a "general" or simplified way by the engine (i.e., it's different, as in: "Hey look at that silly Union-style breach fellers! What jackleg came up with that?!"). Yeah, I know, it isn't a very elegant solution, but it works.

Also, you didn't own Ft. Sumpter at the start of the game, so you would need to buy a reinforcement Coastal Hvy Arty unit (or Fld Arty) and place it in Ft Sumpter in order for it to act like all the other CSA forts.

That's the way I see it; of course I could be mixing up my artillery too.

[lodilefty]

It's just the Coastals pulling heavy replacements in the first few turns. Fort Batteries are classified as field artillery (which adds a whole new dimension to replacement issues).

As usual, you're right!
Interesting discrepancy, though:

Fort Battery Model:mdl_CSA_Bty is $famMedArty
Fort Battery Unit:uni_CSA_Bty shows it as $famHvyArty

[GShock]

The whole issue about replacements is that not everyone can open db files to understand what the engine does. It's been a decade i've asked for detailed logging on replacements but to no avail so far.

I don t really understand why the armies of Beuregard and Johnston roll up to full numbers without need to buy replacements (just to make an example) while these fort guns you just mentioned start depleted and remain depleted. Funny that after months and months i came to find out now...and how did you find out lodilefty? Did you already know or you just checked the db and so far u didn't?

As of the hvy arty, one wouldn't understand why the db reports it as field when it's in the fort and not in the field. Mah...Perhaps im just getting old...

[arsan]

I don t really understand why the armies of Beuregard and Johnston roll up to full numbers without need to buy replacements (just to make an example) while these fort guns you just mentioned start depleted and remain depleted.

Because they use the infantry/cavalry/militia replacements you get for free from time to time on the first year of the war.
All understrength units use up replacements. Most of the time you have to buy them. Some are free gifts (volunteers i suppose).
You get a line on the message log telling when you receive free ones.
Personally, i don't think detailed replacements logs are needed... i want to play the war, not be a army department accountant
I like the automatic replacement distribution system. It works right and don't ask for micromanagement.
Regards

[lodilefty]

<snip
...and how did you find out lodilefty? Did you already know or you just checked the db and so far u didn't?

<snip>

Combination of things: When playing, I noticed the weakness of the batteries while checking forts to see if I wanted more garrison strength. Tried buying heavy replacements, which promptly got eaten. I found the batteries were slightly stronger so I knew where 'it went'....

The DB knowledge is result [or precursor?] of 'surfing' for syntax and design ideas to use in WIA scenarios.....

The DB are spreadsheets. I made my pre-retirement living doing analyses with Excel. Wierd, now it's my hobby!!!!!