What is wrong with Athena ?

[Franciscus]

I am currently playing a CSA full campaign, using a leader relocation mod (my "simple" mod). The Phils have stated that this relocation should have no ill effects on the AI. The settings are default, I think (normal diff, all behaviours, normal aggresiveness, more time, low detect bonus, normal actvation)
It is now April 1862. The AI has not formed a single new army, but has raised 3 new Army HQ; one is sitting in Washington in a stack with Rousseau and a unit of sailors ; the other two are in Scott, Missouri, in a stack with Grant, Lyon, Sherman, Smith, Curtis and a division under Prentiss
I am beggining to think that the AI does not know what to do with Army HQ, or else the relocation does create unexpected difficulties to the AI.
I would like to know other players experiences about this and also maybe a word from Pocus...

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Franciscus]

This a campaign started on 1.09, lately updated to 1.09c (to try and correct the Texas fixation of the AI).

[arsan]

Hi!

My experiences with the Leader mod are very similar to de ones posted by Franciscus as I stated on the other thread about this

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=70770#post70770

I don’t believe it is because of the relocation of the one star leaders on this mod, but because of the historical changes included on the high level leaders (** and ***).

I think Athena needs help forming armies, whereas it is getting the armies already formed (like on the main eastern armies on USA and CSA on the vanilla game) or at least receiving HQ and *** leaders at roughly the same time and on the same place.

She has no trouble making divisions anywhere, so I think we could use the relocation events for the divisional leaders without problems.

I hope Pocus finds time to continue working on Athena but meanwhile and even in addition to AI improvements I think that creating (or modding) an AI friendly setup will be a very good addition to the game, as most people plays against the AI.
With this I mean a slightly different setup for each side, tailored for use when the AI played that side.
In this setups I will include some 3 stars leaders already attached to a HQ (for example AS Johnston could enter with his army, and maybe Buell too. I think Clovis already does this with Johnson on his mod). Also, some arrive dates and locations could be changed to help the AI, following historical guiding lines (for example, McClellan could enter later but already on Washington DC or Bragg around Nashville and not down on Florida)
The changes would be aimed at giving the Ai some basic and historic Army and leaders structures on which she could develop further strategies.
Its something the game already does for both sides on the east at the beginning of the campaign, but not on the west or transmississippi theatres.

Other improvement for “AI only use” could be providing a new system for the neutrality of KY. As it is now, Athena will always lose the state by attacking first some stupid militia on Paducah or Lexington, except if the human player does it first on purpose.
For playing against the AI it will be better to use a simple % probability event like the one used with Missouri loyalty (St Louis Massacre). This way, at least one will get a little variation from game to game.
For PBEM, the current system (or one better… ) could be used.

Has this been thought already?
What do people think about it?

Regards!

[Evren]

Hi!

IIn this setups I will include some 3 stars leaders already attached to a HQ (for example AS Johnston could enter with his army, and maybe Buell too. I think Clovis already does this with Johnson on his mod). Also, some arrive dates and locations could be changed to help the AI, following historical guiding lines (for example, McClellan could enter later but already on Washington DC or Bragg around Nashville and not down on Florida)
The changes would be aimed at giving the Ai some basic and historic Army and leaders structures on which she could develop further strategies.
Its something the game already does for both sides on the east at the beginning of the campaign, but not on the west or transmississippi theatres.

Regards!

Well, i like your ideas. I think 3*** leaders coming into the game with HQ units can improve the game quality. Actually, as you noted that most of the players play against the AI (which i cannot anymore), any improvement crippling the player's actions will make the game better because the player almost always knows which action will be the best (like which units to put into a division, which general to assign etc..).

The only problem is, i think the developers don't have enough time to do anything anymore because of other projects, and the few modders are already busy with lots of other things.

[Pocus]

Not completely true, the AI is used cross-games, with some tweaks, so when it is time for me to spend some time on Athena, it will benefit AACW too.

[Clovis]

Well, i like your ideas. I think 3*** leaders coming into the game with HQ units can improve the game quality. Actually, as you noted that most of the players play against the AI (which i cannot anymore), any improvement crippling the player's actions will make the game better because the player almost always knows which action will be the best (like which units to put into a division, which general to assign etc..).

The only problem is, i think the developers don't have enough time to do anything anymore because of other projects, and the few modders are already busy with lots of other things.

I've yet created Army of the Tennessee on the CSA side. Creating army of the Ohio, of the Tennessee and of Cumberland for the USA AI could be rather easily done. I could create too a CSA army for Pemberton in 1863. But i've not inclined to create sort of Army of the James or other which weren't army on the full sense.

[Evren]

Not completely true, the AI is used cross-games, with some tweaks, so when it is time for me to spend some time on Athena, it will benefit AACW too.

Well, good to hear. It would be great to see a better Athena making me sweat in front of the computer screen. Although i prefer playing against humans, i also find some free time to play against her, but they didn't go far than training after learning the basics.

That's the faith of all AIs probably. The available options don't give much advantages to her (even a very hard game option). I find her much better than any AI around, i expect a much better one (that is your fault actually by making a great game like that )

[Clovis]

Well, good to hear. It would be great to see a better Athena making me sweat in front of the computer screen. Although i prefer playing against humans, i also find some free time to play against her, but they didn't go far than training after learning the basics.

That's the faith of all AIs probably. The available options don't give much advantages to her (even a very hard game option). I find her much better than any AI around, i expect a much better one (that is your fault actually by making a great game like that )

Athena has mainly some blindness about army organization, division composition, use of special units and amphibious operations.

[tagwyn]

Pocus/Phil: Can/should A be "fixed?" apy:

[lodilefty]

I'm testing a mod where McClellan is 'forced' into AotP command. I had lo lock him in Cincy until the events, but that's no big loss.....

Done partly to help Athena, partly for the player, as in my mod, there are few 3* around, and Athena didn't like lil' Mac.....

[Franciscus]

...I hope Pocus finds time to continue working on Athena but meanwhile and even in addition to AI improvements I think that creating (or modding) an AI friendly setup will be a very good addition to the game, as most people plays against the AI.
With this I mean a slightly different setup for each side, tailored for use when the AI played that side.
In this setups I will include some 3 stars leaders already attached to a HQ (for example AS Johnston could enter with his army, and maybe Buell too. I think Clovis already does this with Johnson on his mod). Also, some arrive dates and locations could be changed to help the AI, following historical guiding lines (for example, McClellan could enter later but already on Washington DC or Bragg around Nashville and not down on Florida)
The changes would be aimed at giving the Ai some basic and historic Army and leaders structures on which she could develop further strategies....

I agree with your ideas, Arsan. And believe it would be rather easy to include an army HQ with the *** leaders, for both sides (I think I will do it, using strictly the same leaders as vanilla). But I have some doubts as to the utility of it. I will ask again the hard question: Does Athena know how to use Army HQ ? Has anybody that has played lately, with vanilla or mods, noticed if Athena creates new armies ?

Other question are the corps. In my campaign, the army of McDowell has only one corps (Butler commanding), and no other corps has been formed. Does Athena know how to form corps, particularly in a setting of leader relocation ? (I guess not)

[Pocus]

All the code was done on that yes, and I tested it was ok. If you have an HQ and a 3*, combination is done. If you have lone HQ, they are sent to 3* ... I'm surprised it does not work in fact!

[Franciscus]

Thanks, Pocus, for your attention.
Do you want me to send to you my save files for you to check the AI ?
(Although I will only be able to send them to you tomorrow leure: )

[Pocus]

Is it compatible with the regular database? If there is an army HQ on map and at least one 3*, I can check what happen (or what does not happen ) within some days yes (ah I see you scheme, you want me to abandon the VGN coding to switch to Athena immediatly!! )

[Franciscus]

Is it compatible with the regular database? If there is an army HQ on map and at least one 3*, I can check what happen (or what does not happen ) within some days yes (ah I see you scheme, you want me to abandon the VGN coding to switch to Athena immediatly!! )

Eheheh, my cunning plan was exposed

Now, seriously, I do not see any reason for it to not be compatible with the regular database, as the leaders are the same ones as vanilla. In my game, USA has, besides McDowell, at least 4 other 3 star generals that I remember(McClellan, Banks, Butler, Fremont), and 3 Army HQ, and they do not seem to want to combine...
I will send my saves to your e-mail.

Many thanks for your attention