Industry question(s)

[GrudgeBringer]

As CSA I have decided to try and build light industry in 3 states. After I right click on the State it shows a factory Icon and some info on the industry to be built and the costs of building.

Now my questions are simple but I can't seem to find the answer anywhere.

1. After you Initially pay for the Industrialzation of a state is it a 1 time charge or do you pay it EVERY turn?
Its confusing because the costs stay on the screen turn after turn and honestly I have tried to figure the calculations for supply but......I'm not that smart apparently.

2. Sometimes (I check them every turn) an Industry Icon will dissaper from a state for no reason (The state hasn't been attacked or raided at all).
This is what brings up the question of do you pay every month the costs.

Could it be that when you can't meet the costs that the industry is shut down for all practical purposes?

If so then WHY would the CSA invest in industry anyway because IF you have to pay the costs every turn you will NEVER recoup the costs.

If any one can clarify this I would appreciate it as it appears industry is the only way the CSA will be able to compete after 1861.

Thanks as usual!!!

[Aurelin]

As CSA I have decided to try and build light industry in 3 states. After I right click on the State it shows a factory Icon and some info on the industry to be built and the costs of building.

Now my questions are simple but I can't seem to find the answer anywhere.

1. After you Initially pay for the Industrialzation of a state is it a 1 time charge or do you pay it EVERY turn?
Its confusing because the costs stay on the screen turn after turn and honestly I have tried to figure the calculations for supply but......I'm not that smart apparently.

2. Sometimes (I check them every turn) an Industry Icon will dissaper from a state for no reason (The state hasn't been attacked or raided at all).
This is what brings up the question of do you pay every month the costs.

Could it be that when you can't meet the costs that the industry is shut down for all practical purposes?

If so then WHY would the CSA invest in industry anyway because IF you have to pay the costs every turn you will NEVER recoup the costs.

If any one can clarify this I would appreciate it as it appears industry is the only way the CSA will be able to compete after 1861.

Thanks as usual!!!

You pay every turn for the chance to improve something. You do not, however, get to determine what you get.

From the wiki:

Are gains from economic funding in production permanent or temporary ? It seems I lose the pop-up screen after stopping my investments a few turns later, indeed.

Investment improvements are displayed in the text message area for each turn. Each new factory gets its own line in the text field. As long as you have a factory in a state and the next turn's projected income is still in the black, then there is a chance improvements can occur in that state's cities. The number of factories simply increases the odds for each city in that state to get a positive die roll. The factory graphic in the ledger itself is not permanent, it's simply an indicator of that turn's expenditures, the improvements themselves are not displayed in the ledger and are permanent.

Any time you get a message in the box that a city increases something, it's yours to keep. Until the big bad Union monster takes it from you.

Why invest? You can never have too much general supply, ammo, or war supply.

A nice discussion: http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=3613

[Tordenskjold]

Just to add some to Aurelins answer. When building Industry, Rail, River, Reinforcements and Replacements the text will turn red when either of these factors are over consumed: Money, War Supplies and Recruits.
But, it does not turn red to warn you about the fact that you can not supply industry any longer. Excactly why an industry dissappear and another stands remains figuring out...

[kcole4001]

I think that there are control rquirements for the ability to improve industrialization.
You must control a certain number of cities in the state, I think. I do beleive it's different for each state, & I'm not sure if the capital is a prerequisite (maybe that's all you need).

If these are no longer met, then the industrialization investment is cancelled & must be reinvested when the criteria are again fulfilled.

The extra supply provided is invaluable for the Union player (I haven't played the Rebs yet), particularly in the wilder states.
It does consume a lot of money & war supply, but it's really necessary for a sustainable effort.

Once war supply is no longer the limiting factor, money will be, but you'll be able to plow ahead much longer than before without stopping for a rest & refit period (or to let the policing/garrison troops catch up with the main combat corps).

[Eoghammer]

you must control (military control over at least 50%) one of the 2 strategic city of the state.
if you have only one or 2 city it will cost less thant if you add every city.

[graycoyote]

[quote="Aurelin"]
The factory graphic in the ledger itself is not permanent, it's simply an indicator of that turn's expenditures, the improvements themselves are not displayed in the ledger and are permanent.

[quote]

Factory icons in the ledger

At the start of a “Full Campaign” I invested in Georgia’s Industry in the ledger, with a display of a factory icon appearing in that state. Some time in late 1862 to early 1863 I invested in Georgia again that was still displaying the first icon of a factory I invested in the medium industrial factory. It displayed a second factory icon, then a few months later I went back to the ledger to invest in another industrial factory in a different state. But now Georgia does not show both factory icons that I invested in earlier! Nothing has change in Georgia in fact I have turned off the AI for the Union so that I can see how the game plays without the North attacking me. So I have not lost control of Georgia.

What gives with the factory icons disappearing? I should not have to repurchase extra factories (low & medium) in Georgia to get up to the heavy industrialization.

Any help?

Thanks

[GlobalExplorer]

In my last game as the US I invested in Wisconsin, and after half a year there was nothing gained in terms of additional production in that state (though the "excellent" potential).

Mind I chose Wisconsin because of "excellent" potential and a ridiculously low industrialization cost (no more than 5-6 money/wm I guess) compared. If I'd invested in NY I would have spent ten times that.

P.S. As the CSA I always invested in Georgia and it seemed to pay off.

[W.Barksdale]

Industrialization costs are paid each turn. If, for whatever reason, you run a deficit in $ or WS the industry investments get cancelled for that turn.

Note also that factory icons represent the level of industrialization you currently have. You can go from no factory icons, no industrialization, to three, heavy industrialzation, in the current turn.

[GlobalExplorer]

Having said that, is it really historically correct that Georgia is the only state with some potential in the whole Confederac?. What about Virginia? Especially since VA is such an important, central state inside the CSA!

[W.Barksdale]

In my last game as the US I invested in Wisconsin, and after half a year there was nothing gained in terms of additional production in that state (though the "excellent" potential).

Mind I chose Wisconsin because of "excellent" potential and a ridiculously low industrialization cost (no more than 5-6 money/wm I guess) compared. If I'd invested in NY I would have spent ten times that.

P.S. As the CSA I always invested in Georgia and it seemed to pay off.

Wisconsin is the only state I industrialize with the North. I don't think it's even necessary though.

[GlobalExplorer]

Wisconsin is the only state I industrialize with the North. I don't think it's even necessary though.

Then, did you see any production increase? I am sure I compared the numbers and in that particular case the payback was zero

Maybe I was just unlucky, but as you said, the north really needs no industrialization.

[W.Barksdale]

Then, did you see any production increase? I am sure I compared the numbers and in that particular case the payback was zero

Maybe I was just unlucky, but as you said, the north really needs no industrialization.

Yes, ofcourse, the state began to industrialize.

[Jabberwock]

The factory icons represent the current level of investment for improvements. They tell you how much you are spending each turn on economic improvement in each state, and are used to adjust the amount of investment. They don't represent actual industry. If they stay up from turn to turn, that means that there is no change in the the amount of resources invested, your faction will pay the same costs this turn as you did before, and have the same chances for improvement. If they disappear, that means that you have stopped investing for improvements in that particular state, and are no longer paying those costs.

The Industrialization Potential displayed is calculated by averaging the levels of all the cities in a given state. There is only one city in Wisconsin, - Milwaukee. That is why investing there is cheap. It is a level 6 city. So the state of Wisconsin has an average industrialization potential of 6 ... which is excellent. The engine checks each city in a state you have invested in, and there is a chance of improvement based on the level of investment. If that city gets improvements, the type or amount of improvements can be affected by the level of the city, as well as the level of investment. So you are not likely to see many improvements by investing in Wisconsin, as there is only one chance per turn; but they will likely be decent improvements, they are all going to Milwaukee.

[Jabberwock]

The factory icons represent the current level of investment for improvements. They tell you how much you are spending each turn on economic improvement in each state, and are used to adjust the amount of investment. They don't represent actual industry. If they stay up from turn to turn, that means that there is no change in the the amount of resources invested, your faction will pay the same costs this turn as you did before, and have the same chances for improvement. If they disappear, that means that you have stopped investing for improvements in that particular state, and are no longer paying those costs.

The industrialization potential displayed is calculated by averaging the levels of all the cities in a given state. There is only one city in Wisconsin, - Milwaukee. That is why investing there is cheap. It is a level 6 city. So the state of Wisconsin has an average industrialization potential of 6 ... which is excellent. The engine checks each city in a state you have invested in, and there is a chance of improvement based on the level of investment. If that city gets improvements, the type or amount of improvements can be affected by the level of the city. So you are not likely to see many improvements by investing in Wisconsin, as there is only one chance per turn; but they will likely be decent improvements, they are all going to Milwaukee.

Georgia has several good cities: Atlanta, Savannah, Columbus, Nashville, Augusta, Rome. So it displays a higher investment potential than other states. It has 15 cities - lots of chances, but a high cost.

I have found that spreading the investments around . . . using low industrialization in several states (even those that display poor potential), is more effective than concentrating on just the 'best' states.

[Aurelin]

My current game I've invested in NY and WI. NY has been getting 4-5 WS each turn. And a good bit of GS and Ammo. WI, barely anything.

But, as always, YMMV.

[chainsaw]

I have found that when I have captured New Orleans, but not having taken the river forts yet, that by investing in Louisiana I can get enough supplies to tide my army over while they rest, refit and then attack the forts guarding the mouth of the Mississippi. Seems like a reasonable way to let Ben Butler supply his army.

[Coffee Sergeant]

My current game I've invested in NY and WI. NY has been getting 4-5 WS each turn. And a good bit of GS and Ammo. WI, barely anything.

But, as always, YMMV.

I find zero need to industralize in the north. You are swimming in war supplies; ammo and GS is not a problem. I think the only situation where it becomes useful for the Union is industralizing in conquered states as the above poster did with New Orleans. I suppose Tennesse would probably also become useful to mitigate against raiders disrupting your supply.

[stars&bars]

I have had good results experimenting with it recently(CSA). If you hover your mouse over a state, see the ones that makes a decent amount of war supplies anyway without investment, build light on them to start, and you will see them improve. Worth a try, or maybe I am wrong

[johnnycai]

I have found that when I have captured New Orleans, but not having taken the river forts yet, that by investing in Louisiana I can get enough supplies to tide my army over while they rest, refit and then attack the forts guarding the mouth of the Mississippi. Seems like a reasonable way to let Ben Butler supply his army.

Greetings,

I have used this technique recently as the Union to gain supply/ammo when a new armoury was build in a captured city cutoff from normal supply. What I didnt like was I couldnt keep doing it. That state no longer offers me industialization as an option. Is this WAD? I have plenty of WS/$$$ and I still own the strategic town as before plus another in the state.

John

[Jabberwock]

Can you be more specific? Which towns; which state; what other towns did you hold there recently?

[johnnycai]

Can you be more specific? Which towns; which state; what other towns did you hold there recently?

Greetings,
It was Arkansas, and Fayetville and Ft. Smith that has been liberated. I found that I was able to continue to invest on the next turn. So, am not sure why I wasnt able to invest last turn. I did have $$/WS available throughout so I thought perhaps there was some limit to investment, perhaps due to successful addition of new industry. Military control and the presence of enemy troops was a non-factor.

The sequence was like this:

TurnA: Invest
TurnA+1: Invest
TurnA+2: Invest; got new armoury(supply/ammo)
TurnA+3: Couldnt invest; Ark. was unselectable.
TurnA+4:Invest again.

But it appears to be working now so it may be pointless to further this.

[Jabberwock]

Is it possible that you had only militia, sharpshooters, or artillery (no line units or cavalry) in one or both of those towns that turn?

[GlobalExplorer]

Playing CSA last time I checked industrialization cost in Georgia and I think it was 17 money / 22 war material. Isn't this prohibitive - I mean in my CSA campaigns money is the limiting factor, and this cost amounts to almost a brigade per turn, or a division every 4-5 turns? Therefore I did not chose industrialization in my last campaign and I am doing quite well - concerning my ability to build units.

[Jabberwock]

Playing CSA last time I checked industrialization cost in Georgia and I think it was 17 money / 22 war material. Isn't this prohibitive - I mean in my CSA campaigns money is the limiting factor, and this cost amounts to almost a brigade per turn, or a division every 4-5 turns? Therefore I did not chose industrialization in my last campaign and I am doing quite well - concerning my ability to build units.

It is not prohibitive for most players. For most, WS is the problem early on, which is cured by industrialization, and manpower is the limiting factor later.

Build lots of blockade runners instead (they bring in $ or WS, depending on what is low); money will not be such a limiting factor, then you can afford to invest in factories. Also, hit the money options in early June and early December, when you've built up lots of VPs. Go with Exceptional Taxes & 8% bonds, that saves you from having to print much.

[johnnycai]

Is it possible that you had only militia, sharpshooters, or artillery (no line units or cavalry) in one or both of those towns that turn?

That must be it, I believe I left an arty solo in Fayetville as I cycled some units between Springfield Mo. and Ft. Smith thru Fayetville.

Good catch!
Thanks.

[GlobalExplorer]

It is not prohibitive for most players. For most, WS is the problem early on, which is cured by industrialization, and manpower is the limiting factor later.

Build lots of blockade runners instead (they bring in $ or WS, depending on what is low); money will not be such a limiting factor, then you can afford to invest in factories. Also, hit the money options in early June and early December, when you've built up lots of VPs. Go with Exceptional Taxes & 8% bonds, that saves you from having to print much.

Strange, I seem to do play somewhat different. I played only 1 campaign as the CSA before, and with the help of the occasional re-load I had won that by the end of 1862 so I can not say much about the situation after 1862. Right now I am playing a CSA campaign without cheats (no reloads), and it's always money that I need.

In the first months I am always very careful about my wm, building militia, light infantry brigades, sharpshooters, and in particular, almost exclusively smoothbore artillery as it costs less than half WM and is much better defensively.

Moreover, I made a rule to never go with anything that creates inflation (so anything higher than 5% and measured taxers is out of the question).

I build a lot of Brigs but I do not industrialize. Because a brig costs me only once, while industrialization costs 17/22 per turn. I see how this will pay off in the long run but in the first 6-12 months these 17/22 will allow me to build (nearly) one additional brigade per turn. And as said before the war should be decided in 1863 at the latest.

[Jabberwock]

Strange, I seem to do play somewhat different.

...

Moreover, I made a rule to never go with anything that creates inflation (so anything higher than 5% and measured taxers is out of the question).

There's the difference.

I personally try to go with 8% bonds and exceptional taxes in early June and early December; I feel that usually gives me enough money without having to print any.

A while back, somebody posted the idea of ignoring taxes and bonds, just hitting the print money option every turn or two. Runaway inflation, but tons of money to counter it.

I'm not saying one way is better than another.

[Coregonas]

I believe really CSA must go into heavy inflation ASAP, once 10th turn arises, you can print 400.000 $ every turn -> this is 25 Brigs / turn if enough WS.

The problem is trying to avoid losing too much NM (VPs). > 100 NM is the objective, but some events can get down to 95... Hold printing a little until other events /battles go up.

I try the following money options:

Exceptional Taxes aprox - 2nd-3rd turn (used mainly to recruit some extra troops... paying 1000 $ for example)

Once Troops can be bought (or a turn before)-> Print Money to recruit troops .

In the last turn before options reset -> 8% bonds.

Then, go on printing every turn --- watch NM...

Well inflation will be in 40-50% in a few turns, but I believe money is not a problem by then ... WS / NM & Conscripts perhaps

[MarkCSA]

Interesting to see that everybody has a different plan for trying to solve the CSA's initial complete lack of resources.

I've gone for some taxes and loads of 5% bonds in my last game (which I won), but the real gain is from indeed getting loads of Blockade runners. The problem there being that you need to get rid of the Union fleet in one of the Blockade boxes. Which requires tons of resources...........

Since my education is in Economics, just hitting the printing presses is almost vulgar and makes my spine crawl.

[GlobalExplorer]

Yes Jabberwock, that seems to be the difference. I have just checked and realized what insane amounts of money I could get if I would only settle with inflation.

Also: napoleonic artillery. The 6pdr cost only 2 wm, a 12pdr 3wm. For the rifled cannons, it's more than twice that, while giving less defensive firepower.

Actually I've never seen inflation. I mean in reality, inflation in the south was astronomic. So maybe the game should automatically trigger inflation, to prevent the sort of strategy that I use. Because right now my economy feels too healthy, just by resisting anything that would raise inflation.