1812 scenario

[caranorn]

I'll post notes about the 1812 scenario directly here, should be clearer.

You might want to add some of these staff officers to Napoléon's Grande Armée (M. Berthier, GdD Mouton (Lobau) (AdC), GdD Junot, GdD Rapp (AdC), GdD Lauriston (AdC), GdD Lebrun (AdC), GdD Durosnel (AdC), GdD Narbonne (AdC), GdD Hogendorp (AdC), GdD Sangkowko (AdC), GdD Pac (AdC), GdD Milhaud, GdD Baraguay d’Hilliers, GdD Loison). Adding all would be too much, but some of the more renowned one's could be useful to command garrisons (as historically done).

Ist Corps; 7th (Grandjean with Poles, Bavarians and Westphalians) Division should be part of MacDonald's Xth Corps and not Davout's Ist. I have Girardin not Pajol (Pajol has 2nd Light Division IInd Cavalry Corps) commanding Ist Corps' Cavalry.

IVth Corps; I have Lechi commanding the Italian Guard.

VIIth Corps I have von Gablenz commanding the Corps Cavalry.

VIIIth Corps, I'd add Vandamme as 2nd in command to Jérôme, maybe with an event to remove Jérôme and possibly Vandamme too (forgot who ended up commanding that corps after the fiasko between Dvout, Jérome and Naopléon).

IXth Corps here we have Lagrange's Division which I have down as no. 29 and part of Augereau's XIth corps see bellow.

Xth Corps; I don't have a 29th Division (29th Lagrange with Augereau's XIth Corps) only an unnumbered Cavalry Force (26th and 27th Brigades, both Prussian).

XIth Corps, I have a 34th Division (Division Princière under Saint-Cyr, entirely composed of Rhenanian forces).

I haven't played out the scenario yet so I'm not sure the Lithuanian Forces are included. These consisted of some 24 battalions (I can look up the exact organisation) of Line and Light Infantry, 7 Cavalry Regiments and 1 Artillery Battery (at least). These should become available once certain parts of Lithuania are conquered/liberated.

Cavalry, Murat is missing entirely.

If there's an interest I can send an order of battle file for both French and Russian forces as used in my 1812 game project. Though I did not list the individual regiments belonging to the various units... only the number of battalions per brigade with a strength estimate in manpower.

Example entry in those files:

● Garde Impériale –

M. Mortier
1ère Division (JG) – Delaborde
1ère Bde. Lg. (6 x Bn.) (2630)
2ème Bde. Lg. (6 x Bn.) (2255)
Art. (P) (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
2ème Division (JG) – Roguet
1ère Bde. Lg. (4 x Bn.) (1763)
2ème Bde. Lg. (6 x Bn.) (3935)
Art. (P) (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
M. Lefevbre
3ème Division (VG) – Curial
1ère Bde. Lg. (4 x Bn.) (2772)
2ème Bde. Gr. (6 x Bn.) (3643)
Art. (P) (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
M. Bessiéres
Cavalerie de la Garde – Walther
1ère Bde. (Chass.) (1 x Rg.) (1252)
2ème Bde. Dg. (Drag.) (1 x Rg.) (1080)
3ème Bde. Dg. (Gren.) (1 x Rg.) (1166)
4ème Bde. Lc. (1er Lanc.) (1 x Rg.) ( 956)
5ème Bde. Lc. (2ème Lanc.) (1 x Rg.) (1152)
6ème Bde. (Gend.) (1 x Rg.) ( 391)
Art. (C) (2 x Co.) ( 12 )
Réserve d’Artillerie
Art. (P) 12lbs (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
Art. (C) (4 x Co.) ( 24 )
Attachés à la Garde
Légion de la Vistule (Po.) – Claparède
1ère Bde. (6 x Bn.) (2622)
2ème Bde. (3 x Bn.) (1272)
Bde. Lg.d.C. (2 x Rg.) (1200 )

[Sol Invictus]

I notice that there are several regions in the 1812 Campaign that start with snow, especially in the Crimea area. Is this intended? I was wondering since the campaign starts in June and Russia is usally rather hot in June. These areas are mostly swamp also, which may be a factor.

[Syt]

I notice that there are several regions in the 1812 Campaign that start with snow, especially in the Crimea area. Is this intended? I was wondering since the campaign starts in June and Russia is usally rather hot in June. These areas are mostly swamp also, which may be a factor.

The weather is randomized whenever a scenario starts, but I agree that sometimes it appears to be a bit random: snow in the Alps in April is not rare, but having all of Germany snowed in around the 15th of April, while the Alpine foothills are clear is a bit weird (referring to the 1809 campaign).

[Pocus]

There is indeed a possible issue with alpine terrain weather, for the rest I think the weather matrix can perhaps be revised.

[caranorn]

More about the Russian Army for this scenario now.

The first thing that comes to mind is that Tormassov and Tshitshagov should be locked for several turns at the start of the game. I'd recommend 4 turns for these two armies, that would mean they start intervening around their historic date and neither force seems to have been concentrated before Napoleon's invasion. Steinheil in Finland doesn't seem to be such a problem (it takes him a month to arrive overland, probably not much less by sea).

I'd also lock the units of the Reserve Army for a turn or two.

Now to unit composition.

Essen I at Riga (funny how he's identical to Essen III of the Army of the Danube), this force should have the Regular 22nd Division (some 9000 men by my estimate) under Lewis in addition to it's Reserve Divisions.

IIIrd Corps (Tutchkov), I have Stroganoff as commander of the 1st Grenadier Division.

Vth Corps (Constantine), I have the complete 1st Composite Grenadier Division with this corps (so a 2nd Brigade of 6 battalions).

Ist Cavalry Corps (Uvarov) I can't find this force at all, it consisted of some 5500 men from the Guards and 1st Cavalry Divisions (the major part of the 1st being with Wittgenstein of course).

VIIIth Corps (Borosdin I) I have the 2nd Cuirassier Division with this corps and the 27th Infantry Division separate.

I have Illowaiski V down as commanding the Cossack's of the 2nd Army of the West (but this could have been a guess, trying to track down my sources right now).

O'Rourke, I have Markoff commanding that Corps of the 3rd Army of the West.

Sacken, his Cavalry Division is the no. 11 (Reserve of course) (and I have Lasskin commanding it). Sorokin's Division is a mix from the 35th, 36th and 37th Reserve Divisions.

Cossacks, the 3rd Army of the West also had some Cossacks (I have it marked down with 9 Pulks).

Langeron, I have him commanding the 13th Division (the 22nd under Lewis being at Riga).

Yermolov, I have Zass commanding that corps.

The 6th Cavalry Division under Manteufel might be missing (or else spread between various commands of the Army of the Danube).

Arkhangelsk, the 2nd Brigade of the 6th Division was located there (a minor issue, should probably remain locked anyhow).

Caucasus, as that area is playable one might as well place the locked 19th (Rutcheff) and 20th (Paulucci) Divisions there.

I will try to continue with the Reserve Formations later.

A useful webpage which was part of my sources: http://www.museum.ru/museum/1812/War/Sostav_rus/index.html , unfortunately I can't get the translation engine I used last year to run on the page right now (I don't speak Russian or read Cyrillic script).

I will continue looking for a second websource (particularly useful for the secondary Armies (Riga, 3rd West and Danube)) I used at the time.

[Syt]

XIth Corps, I have a 34th Division (Division Princière under Saint-Cyr, entirely composed of Rhenanian forces).

Chandler has the 34th Infantry as French, under Morand's command.

[caranorn]

Here is the source I had for that 34th Division. http://www.histofig.com/empire/odb_004.php . There are some other files on Histoire et Figurines' site: http://www.histofig.com/empire/odb.php#1812 .

[caranorn]

Saint-Hilaire (or whoever re-edited his history of the 1812 campaign) gives the XIth Corps as:

30th Division (Heudelet) (French and Westphalian)
31st Division (Lagrange) (French)
32nd Division (Durutte) (French Penal Regiments)
34th Division (Morand) (French, Hessian and Saxon)
Cavalry (Cavaignac)

Separately he lists:

Division Princière (without number) (Saint-Cyr) (Rhenan)
33rd Division (D'Estrees) (Neapolitan)

Which only goes to show that every source diverges slightly on these issues. I'll take a quick look at Nafziger next.

[caranorn]

Nafziger gives the 34th as Morand's too, but he then continues to list 4 of the 6 regiments (3rd, 4th, 5th +6th Rhenan) (as well as both von Osten and Anthing as brigadiers generals) supposedly belonging to the "Division Princière". Maybe both bore the number 34th Division and got mixed up at some point, or they were indeed a single division with varrying composition (by date).

[Sol Invictus]

Maybe certain months should exclude snow conditions. I think it would make sense to exclude Snow conditions in the 1812 Campaign during the months of May-August.

Caranorn, I hope you don't mind me discussing weather in this post, I figured this could be the 1812 Campaign suggestion/bug post in order to keep it all together and tidy.

[caranorn]

No problem Sol Invictus:-).

[redaman]

Hello,

I answer, I am part of the scenario development team. Even if I am not the designer of the 1812 one, i know that many sources were looked and cross checked at and that certain choices were to be made at a time. Rather than discussing about the data and their correctness right now, I would like to know at which date your ODB was done. We collected ODB at start of the campaigns generrally. They are many times different from those that you could see in certain battles because of the events of the campaigns. So this is the main & starting point of discussion that I need to clear with you before going further. After that, we have probably introduced some errors (like every human activity) and we'll check them with ou once you give us information about the sources you use.

reda

I'll post notes about the 1812 scenario directly here, should be clearer.

You might want to add some of these staff officers to Napoléon's Grande Armée (M. Berthier, GdD Mouton (Lobau) (AdC), GdD Junot, GdD Rapp (AdC), GdD Lauriston (AdC), GdD Lebrun (AdC), GdD Durosnel (AdC), GdD Narbonne (AdC), GdD Hogendorp (AdC), GdD Sangkowko (AdC), GdD Pac (AdC), GdD Milhaud, GdD Baraguay d’Hilliers, GdD Loison). Adding all would be too much, but some of the more renowned one's could be useful to command garrisons (as historically done).

Ist Corps; 7th (Grandjean with Poles, Bavarians and Westphalians) Division should be part of MacDonald's Xth Corps and not Davout's Ist. I have Girardin not Pajol (Pajol has 2nd Light Division IInd Cavalry Corps) commanding Ist Corps' Cavalry.

IVth Corps; I have Lechi commanding the Italian Guard.

VIIth Corps I have von Gablenz commanding the Corps Cavalry.

VIIIth Corps, I'd add Vandamme as 2nd in command to Jérôme, maybe with an event to remove Jérôme and possibly Vandamme too (forgot who ended up commanding that corps after the fiasko between Dvout, Jérome and Naopléon).

IXth Corps here we have Lagrange's Division which I have down as no. 29 and part of Augereau's XIth corps see bellow.

Xth Corps; I don't have a 29th Division (29th Lagrange with Augereau's XIth Corps) only an unnumbered Cavalry Force (26th and 27th Brigades, both Prussian).

XIth Corps, I have a 34th Division (Division Princière under Saint-Cyr, entirely composed of Rhenanian forces).

I haven't played out the scenario yet so I'm not sure the Lithuanian Forces are included. These consisted of some 24 battalions (I can look up the exact organisation) of Line and Light Infantry, 7 Cavalry Regiments and 1 Artillery Battery (at least). These should become available once certain parts of Lithuania are conquered/liberated.

Cavalry, Murat is missing entirely.

If there's an interest I can send an order of battle file for both French and Russian forces as used in my 1812 game project. Though I did not list the individual regiments belonging to the various units... only the number of battalions per brigade with a strength estimate in manpower.

Example entry in those files:

● Garde Impériale –

M. Mortier
1ère Division (JG) – Delaborde
1ère Bde. Lg. (6 x Bn.) (2630)
2ème Bde. Lg. (6 x Bn.) (2255)
Art. (P) (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
2ème Division (JG) – Roguet
1ère Bde. Lg. (4 x Bn.) (1763)
2ème Bde. Lg. (6 x Bn.) (3935)
Art. (P) (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
M. Lefevbre
3ème Division (VG) – Curial
1ère Bde. Lg. (4 x Bn.) (2772)
2ème Bde. Gr. (6 x Bn.) (3643)
Art. (P) (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
M. Bessiéres
Cavalerie de la Garde – Walther
1ère Bde. (Chass.) (1 x Rg.) (1252)
2ème Bde. Dg. (Drag.) (1 x Rg.) (1080)
3ème Bde. Dg. (Gren.) (1 x Rg.) (1166)
4ème Bde. Lc. (1er Lanc.) (1 x Rg.) ( 956)
5ème Bde. Lc. (2ème Lanc.) (1 x Rg.) (1152)
6ème Bde. (Gend.) (1 x Rg.) ( 391)
Art. (C) (2 x Co.) ( 12 )
Réserve d’Artillerie
Art. (P) 12lbs (2 x Co.) ( 16 )
Art. (C) (4 x Co.) ( 24 )
Attachés à la Garde
Légion de la Vistule (Po.) – Claparède
1ère Bde. (6 x Bn.) (2622)
2ème Bde. (3 x Bn.) (1272)
Bde. Lg.d.C. (2 x Rg.) (1200 )

[caranorn]

I used various sources including Nafziger's "Napoleon's Invasion of Russia", Saint-Hilaire's "Napoléon en Russie", Chandler's "The Campaigns of Napoleon", various weblinks etc. As to dates, the main OOB in Nafziger's is dated August 1 1812, Saint-Hilaire's is dated June 15 1812.

I am pretty confident about all the information except Lagrange (I'm not sure where this unit was at the start of the campaign) and Carra-Saint-Cyr/Morand (aka 34th Division).

[redaman]

I used various sources including Nafziger's "Napoleon's Invasion of Russia", Saint-Hilaire's "Napoléon en Russie", Chandler's "The Campaigns of Napoleon", various weblinks etc. As to dates, the main OOB in Nafziger's is dated August 1 1812, Saint-Hilaire's is dated June 15 1812.

I am pretty confident about all the information except Lagrange (I'm not sure where this unit was at the start of the campaign) and Carra-Saint-Cyr/Morand (aka 34th Division).

OK for the "correctness" or "liability" of your sources, but the nafziger's oob dating august 1812 for example is unhappily useless for us. The campaign starts in June and only june oob are of a value to us. Many reorganizations appeared during campaigns and we wanted to make the players freed of that. We tried to be coherent when preparing the oob, and where we were not it was due to a lack of sources. For 1812 we have also gathered many sources and had to find a compromise between contradictory ones. I will ask the designer in charge of the 1812's OOB to come to this forum to confirm or not your remarks, but for this you have to really separate the data coming from june OOBs from the others.

[caranorn]

In short, just basing myself on Saint-Hilaire:

Ist Corps (Davout), 7th Division belongs to the Xth Corps (MacDonald)

VIIIth Corps (Vandamme), Saint-Hilaire gives Vandamme as commander, in any case both Jérôme and Vandamme were present, Junot iirc later took command (a possible event, maybe even with variable outcome, Vandamme gets sacked by Jérôme, Jérôme gets into an argument with Davout, Jérôme packs his bags without informing anyone (his corps, his superior Davout or Napoléon), Jérôme ignores Napoléon's rebutal and continues home, finally Junot gets dispatched to take command of a now disorganised corps... (the variable part being whether Jérôme comes back or not, also in how bad a shape the corps is left (locked for a turn or two)).

Xth Corps (Mac Donald) add 7th Division as explained under Ist Corps (Davout).

XIth Corps (Augereau), Division Princière under Carra-St-Cyr (organised as follows: 1st Brigade (Osten), 4th and 5th (weblink provided also gives 8th) Rhenan Regiments (3 and 2 battalions); 2nd Brigade (Anthing), 3rd, 6th and 7th Rhenan Regiments (each 2 battalions)). the 31st Division should be commanded by Séras not Loison.

Murat is simply missing from the scenario (he commanded the Cavalry Reserve).

The Lithuanians, but I'd have to pick out their detail from the text. In any case these should either appear late in the campaign, or appear locked (for the duration of the game) at an earlier date (to simulate their forming, note; they fought during the French retreat).

I'll have to look into the Russian data again at a later time, hopefully the translator website I used before will make the 1812 site legible for me once again.

Lastly, so far I haven't looked at brigades and regiments in the scenario as I consider the above data essential, individual regiments on the other hand only important if their addition or removal would lead to a noticeable change of balance in the scenario.

Argh., I just remembered something else that coudl be useful. saint-Hilaire gives the composition of various garrisons at teh start of the campaign. Here comes:

Magdeburg, GdD Michaud, all Westphalians 4th line (3 battalions), 8th line (depot only), 1st cuirassiers (depot), 2nd cuirassiers (depot).

Danzig, GdD Rapp, all Mecklenburg-Schwerin unless otehrwise noted, 1st and 2nd line battalions, 7th Würtemberg, von Rechten (Saxon) Regiment, Artillery (Saxon, Polish, Bavarian and Würtemberg), 2nd Hessian, a riverboat unit.

Stettin, GdD Liébert, all Bade unless otherwise noted, 1st, 2nd and 3rd march battalions, 1st and 3rd line regiments, light infantry, hussars, 1st (Hessian) light, Artillery, depot Ist corps.

Kustrin, GdD Fornier d'Albe, Hessian unless otherwise noted, 3rd Bade, light infantry, detachment 7th foot artillery, depot IInd and IIIrd corps.

??? (Kustrin too? or Glogau?) Saxons unless otherwise noted, von Low regiment, 18th co. 7th foot artillery, artillery, chevau-léger, IVth corps depot.

Berlin, GdD Durutte, Würtembergian unless otherwise noted, 3rd battalion, 5th (Würzburg) infantry regiment.

I expect many of those garrison units are already included in the game under their "parent" corps.

Final note on the scenario in general, could Austrian territory be removed from the scenario alltogether? Right now this territory just provides the Russians with victory points (for capturing the towns) while historically (iirc) no Russian troops invaded Austria. The only role that area played was when Schwarzenberg finally retreated from Russia taking Reynier's VIIth corps with him out of reach of Napoleon (and thereby removing the Saxon Army from his grasp).

[totobadluck]

hello I am the person who made the oob of 1812.

i haved in my possession 4 sources in date of June 1812.
they always did not say the same things and i must do choices.

to conceive oob is not so easy.
Oob that I propose as much as possible near of the historical reality with errors possibility according to sources and not another.

the possibility of changing certain things in the oob is allocated to the originators of the play. I propose to you to contact them, good continuation.

[Adlertag]

Peut-etre que Caranorn pourrait directement parler en Français (qu'il maitrise bien il me semble) avec Totobadluck et Redaman, je crois que cela serait plus simple entre vous sur des sujets aussi pointus.
Les discussions de spécialistes s'entendent sûrement mieux dans sa langue maternelle.
A vous de voir...

[caranorn]

Oui, on peut toujours me parler en Français, Anglais ou Allemand (je doute qu'il y a quelq'un pour me parler en Luxembourgeois).

Totobadluck je comprends tout à fait qu'il fallait faire des choix, dans des cas comme celui çi il y a toujours des différences entre les divers ordres de batailles. Mes il me semble qu'il reste quelques erreurs ou oublis, l'abscence de Murat en est un exemple. Ces erreurs ou oublis ne sont pas très graves comparé à la qualité générale du jeu, mais celà ne veut pas dire qu'on ne peut les corriger.

Je viens juste de trouver un site qui traduit correctement (avec des approximations habituelles tel "housing" pour corps) du russe en anglais (malheureusement pas en français). Je vais donc pouvoir comparer ses informations avec celles du jeu. (Note: ce site donne aussi la 7ème Division au Xème Corps, Murat présent, Vandamme commandant du VIIIème Corps, la 34ème Division sous Carra-Saint-Cyr, la garde italienne sous Lechi etc.).

http://svsurl.systransoft.com/?transresults&task=11d1def534ea1be0--21383590-1165e0e0dae--756c#11_kor

http://svsurl.systransoft.com/?t=outputframeset&link=trans&task=11d1def534ea1be0--21383590-1165e0e0dae--751c

http://svsurl.systransoft.com/?t=outputframeset&link=trans&task=11d1def534ea1be0--21383590-1165e0e0dae--7518

Le troisième lien est nouveau et très intéressant quand on jette un oeil aux détails (par exemple il explique que la 7ème Division est formée en avril 1812 sous le Ier Corps, fait partie du nouveau Xème Corps en juin et recoit sa désignation en juillet (donc en juin il s'agit tout simplement de la Division Grandjean sous le Xème Corps)).

[Clayroger]

Il serait de toutes façons très intéressant que quelque part, on puisse trouver la liste des sources utilisées pour la construction de l'arrière plan historique et les OOB en particulier.

@+

[totobadluck]

si on peut parler en français, on va s'eclater.

la source en elle meme n'est pas la principale "source" d'erreur, le plus difficile est de trouver plusieurs oob qui correspond a la meme date.

ensuite faut savoir que pour l'armée française, il est encore plus difficile de trouver un oob historique irreprochable, pourquoi ?

tout simplement parce que le petit tondu se faisait apparement plaisir a changer constament de place les troupes dans l'organisation qu'il avait mis en place et cela avant meme de commencer une campagne.

a partir de 1812, la difficulté est augmenté, il regne un "bordel" pas possible dans la grande armée: theatre d'operation gigantesque, flux de troupes multiplié, beaucoups d'hommes inexperimenté a tout les echellons, etc...

Pour ce qui est des oob que j'ai proposé pour le jeu, on peut toujours y trouvé des erreurs mais selon quels criteres:

- une source que l'on croit sur.
- envie de faire amelioré les choses.

J'ai appris en travaillant sur les obb, qu'il n'existe pas de source sur, on ne fait que s'approcher de l'Histoire.

en tout cas, je ne suis pas hermetique a des changements (ce n'est pas mon bébé), si le staff est d'accord, je n'y vois pas d'inconvenient.

il y a des oob dans le jeu, qui sont faiblare:

- l'obb du russe pour la campagne de juin 1807 doit avoir quelques petites erreurs.
- on manque de renseignement sur les renforts français en Espagne
- on connait pas du tout les unités qui se trouve ailleurs qu'en Belgique pour 1815

avec ces renseigenements tu nous aiderai vraiment.

a+

[caranorn]

Je viens juste de comparer l'ODB Russe avec le site Russe que j'avais donné.

Sauf pour la 22ème Division que je donnais à Riga sous Lewis il correspond à mes données précédentes. Cette histoire de 22ème et 13ème Division n'est pas très claire. Lewis est certainement présent à Riga avec une unité régulière d'après plusieurs histoires que j'ai lues, mais je ne retrouve pas d'ou je tenais qu'il s'agirait de la 22ème Division. Donc le mieux serait d'ignorer ce point. Ah oui, et je ne trouve pas de 2ème brigade pour la 1ère Division de Grenadier Consolidés après tout, donc un deuxième point à ignorer.

J'avais oublié d'inclure un lien de plus qui pourrait être utile: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/c_cross_military.html.

[Fred]

S'il y a des gens dans l'aimable assistance qui ont le statut de chercheur ou qui connaissent du monde, il serait peut-être possible de vérifier directement les journaux de marche des régiments qui posent problème dans l'ODB de juin 1812 aux archives de Vincennes. Cela pourrait peut-être éclairer certains cas douteux
Evidement, cela ferait peut-être beaucoup de démarches et de temps dépensé pour pas grand-chose...

[Henry D.]

Eeh, sorry to interrupt, but since this is the english "Help to improve NCP"-forum, could we please keep it that way, just for the benefit of the linguistically imparied but still interested, like myself?

Thank You!

Regards, Henry

[Adlertag]

Sorry Henry, I suggested to speak French only if Caranorn and Totobadluck are concerned in a specialist debat between themselves.
So, back to English...

[Clayroger]

Just to go back to the discussion, the major problem with the 1812 is Murat missing the OOB.
Debates about the french and russian OOB exist for nearly two centuries now, and will probably not be fixed here. Mainly because getting and exact OOB starting in june 1812 is probably just impossible to list.

[redaman]

Just to go back to the discussion, the major problem with the 1812 is Murat missing the OOB.
Debates about the french and russian OOB exist for nearly two centuries now, and will probably not be fixed here. Mainly because getting and exact OOB starting in june 1812 is probably just impossible to list.

Murat is now added on the French OOB. I think it will be available in the next patch.

For the troops we will check after the other priorities tasks are done. I'll get a look anyway to what i have in the meantime.