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Henry D.
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That river zone between Richmond and Petersburg/VA...

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:46 pm

should it really be "coastal" instead of "shallow"? Admittedly, my personal knowledge of the area only stems from a brief visit when touring civil war sites in 2003, but I think it was in no way deep enough to allow big man-o-wars to operate there.

Gamewise the fact that this zone is coastal IMHO makes Richmond way to vulnerable to northern suprise attacks with Farraguts fleet and several divisions early on. I just pulled that stunt against wyrmm in November 1861 with two full divisions and every bluewater ship not in the blockade and shipping boxes under Farragut, bombarding in support and I just steamrolled his defenses. He's about to quit the game because of that and frankly, I don't blame him. :(

We are playing with a houserule of not issuing drafts until April 62, which might be the reason that he could not fortify Richmond yet. However, for the same reason I could not yet expand my river navy in the east to any significant extent, and without the high sea transports I could never have pulled that move...

Long story short, I think the James being "coastal" up from the Chesapeake Bay to the very doorstep of Richmond is wrong geographically (or would that be "nautigraphically"? :nuts: ) and gameplay-wise because it allows the Union a very ahistorical exploit (which to have used myself I'm quite sorry in retrospect :( ).

What do You think?

Regards, Henry :)
Henry D, also known as "Stauffenberg" @ Strategycon Interactive and formerly (un)known as "whatasillyname" @ Paradox Forums

"Rackers, wollt Ihr ewig leben?" (Rascals, Do You want to live forever?) - Frederick the Great, cursing at his fleeing Grenadiers at the battle of Kunersdorf

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PBBoeye
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Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:04 am

Given the constraints of the game and how it is designed (region layout), for now it is not far off historical. I live about three north of the James and a dam called Bosher's Dam, built in 1823 (I live in Henrico County, what is erroneously called 'Richmond' region in the game). Bosher's Dam cut down the flow significantly, but previous to that the James was open to fairly deep draught boats. It was the first river navigated by European settlers.

As I said, given the status of the game now, I don't see it changing, and I'm not sure it should. The James could easily have been navigated well north of the Chickahominy inlet - well north of that, but probably not as far as it currently goes. Prior to Bosher's Dam, they could probably navigate up to Richmond itself.

Don't let your eyes and what you see fool you, Henry. There are plenty of reasons the James isn't that sprawling and deep these days - all of them due to 'man'. Bosher's Dam was the start of that, but heavy residential buildup is continually siphoning water off the James now. If you aren't sure about the viability of it for the big boys, check out the American Ghost Fleet on the internet and that should tell you something. Newport News, Norfolk - all of that, on the James - BIGTIME US naval importance.

Btw, the James was well protected against the US naval presence. Why the game doesn't model that more is beyond me.

Side note - the Bosher's Dam thing is cool to me. It was constructed less than 50 years after the start of the American Revolution and still plugs on today. That isn't a long time by European chronology, but given the relative short history of Virginia and the USA as a sovereign country, it is pretty cool to me.

wyrmm
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Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:15 am

More than the river, the problem is the 'bloodiness' of the model in unit elimination, especially full fleet bombardments against shore batteries. How many guns stopped the run up the James Historically due to the narrowness of the channel? Can't be replicated atm. As to the James defences, if fewer of my brigades evaporated after the first battle, I would build them myself. :king:

PBBoeye
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Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:17 am

Yep. They had stuff all over. Which is one reason they didn't successfully mount a 'James Run' to begin with. This is, IMO, a perfect 'frontage' issue as brought up in the 'bombardment' thread. Should be some real limitations on river navigation.

Whole US fleets - sheesh....

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Henry D.
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Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:36 am

All right, gentlemen, I submit myself to Your superior knowledge on the issue. :) And I further concur with You that naval bombardment and shore batteries/forts are in dire need of tweaking...

And now I'll go to bed, these PbEMs with you americans are beginning to cut into my sleeping schedule... :sourcil:

Good night and Regards, Henry :niark:
Henry D, also known as "Stauffenberg" @ Strategycon Interactive and formerly (un)known as "whatasillyname" @ Paradox Forums



"Rackers, wollt Ihr ewig leben?" (Rascals, Do You want to live forever?) - Frederick the Great, cursing at his fleeing Grenadiers at the battle of Kunersdorf



"Nee, Fritze, aber für fuffzehn Pfennije is' heute jenuch!" (No, Freddy, but for 15p let's call it a day!) - Retort of one passing Grenadier to the above :sourcil:

jimwinsor
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Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:27 pm

A further complication to this issue is the blockade system. As things stand now, the only way to blockade Richmond is to send a fleet up the James right to the very doorstop of the city. So, trying to make it hard to send Union ships there will make the port ahistorically un-blockaded.
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wyrmm
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Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:45 pm

Which to my mind means the blockade system is broke, as Union ships never 'blockaded' Richmond from the river front. :tournepas

PBBoeye
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Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:59 am

Well, as I'm going over all the VA state rivers right now on a side project, I've come across something interesting. Bear in mind this is a modern satellite photo, and the James had to be deeper in the 1860's than it is now, but not too substantially.

Take a look at this - look at the river that is farthest south - that the James.

http://tinyurl.com/269mj4

So my assessment would be this: no seafaring vessels should be able to move any farther up the James than the branch with the Chickahominy river. I do think shallow draft stuff could go a bit farther - almost sure of it - but none of the really seafaring transports would make that journey.

But I don't think anything would have made it up to the doorstep of Richmond, ever. Not troop barges.

Maj. Frogbottom
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:51 am

There are other locations throughout the map that have the same problems. The Pamlico sound as an example, why enter the sound to blockade North Carolina ports when blockading the Sound would be just as effective and would require far less naval assets. Which also brings up the Mississippi River,etc.,etc......

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Pocus
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:00 am

this is a difficult issue to tackle. We had an idea some time ago, where a given harbor would have an additional list of sea regions allowing it to be blockaded (even if the sea regions are not adjacent as you can guess). But to which extent we do that? Should we blockade Viksburg because the Mississippi mouth is blockaded?
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Rafiki
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:12 pm

As I have a habit of suggesting changes (improvements, hopefully) that will mean more work for Pocus & team, I shall continue to do so now.

Each harbour could define list of sets, where each set, if blockaded with the required number of ships will blockade the harbour. For Richmond, this would e.g. be a list where each region along the James river would be a set (of one region each), in addtition to some sets for regions further out.

(I haven't got the game in front of me, so I can't provide a detailed example.)
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Jabberwock
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:42 pm

A ship had to draft 18' or less to get as far as Harrison's Landing or City Point during spring of '62. That's why the CSS Virginia was scuttled rather than relocated. She drew 23' armed - 20' with guns removed.
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Jabberwock
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:53 pm

Maj. Frogbottom wrote:There are other locations throughout the map that have the same problems. The Pamlico sound as an example, why enter the sound to blockade North Carolina ports when blockading the Sound would be just as effective and would require far less naval assets. Which also brings up the Mississippi River,etc.,etc......


Station-watching at the inlets would be much more hazardous than station-watching in the sounds, due to rough seas. Also, inlet blockading doesn't tie up reb troops that could otherwise be in the ANV, or interdict salt production in the area. OTOH, just holding Fts Clark and Hatteras, along with Ocracoke Island, would effectively cut off the sounds from the sea.
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Henry D.
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:05 pm

Pocus wrote:this is a difficult issue to tackle. We had an idea some time ago, where a given harbor would have an additional list of sea regions allowing it to be blockaded (even if the sea regions are not adjacent as you can guess). But to which extent we do that? Should we blockade Viksburg because the Mississippi mouth is blockaded?
I think it would be also important, that Forts should be able to effectively blockade their neighboring coastal/river/estuary zones (or at least drastically reduce the number of naval elements needed to blockade them), at least the on-map "pentagon brick-icon" ones.

Ft. Monroe effectively blockaded the entire James river, including Norfolk, Ft. Pickens blockaded all harbors along the inlet it covered and the capture of Fort Fisher by the Union effectively blockaded Wilmingtom, without much further need of patrol ships, I think (though I'm sure I will be corrected again :nuts: ).

Just my 0.02$, Henry
Henry D, also known as "Stauffenberg" @ Strategycon Interactive and formerly (un)known as "whatasillyname" @ Paradox Forums



"Rackers, wollt Ihr ewig leben?" (Rascals, Do You want to live forever?) - Frederick the Great, cursing at his fleeing Grenadiers at the battle of Kunersdorf



"Nee, Fritze, aber für fuffzehn Pfennije is' heute jenuch!" (No, Freddy, but for 15p let's call it a day!) - Retort of one passing Grenadier to the above :sourcil:

wyrmm
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:12 pm

Pocus wrote:this is a difficult issue to tackle. We had an idea some time ago, where a given harbor would have an additional list of sea regions allowing it to be blockaded (even if the sea regions are not adjacent as you can guess). But to which extent we do that? Should we blockade Viksburg because the Mississippi mouth is blockaded?


From the Sea, yes. From points upstream of the blockade(or downstream of a controlled point of the river), No. Doesn't help much does it? :p leure:

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Jabberwock
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 am

This might shed some more light on the issue. It's a description of the battle of Trent's Reach, which is about halfway between City Point and Drewry's Bluff, on the northwest side of Bermuda Hundred. It's got ship's drafts and details about navigation hazards:

http://www.historynet.com/air_sea/naval_battles/3025591.html

I would say it confirms Henry's shallow viewpoint. :niark: :innocent:
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KillCalvalry
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Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:01 pm

I have a question in general. Do other players find the entire River System way too navigable?

Could an Ironclad REALLY have sailed all the way to Knoxville during the Civil war?

Or, bypass the head of the Mississippi and sail up the Achilafaya or whatever that river is that empties around Port Hudson?

Or sail a frigate most of the way up the Texas/Louisianna border?

1.07 made some improvements, but MAN, still seems like it's too easy to sail all over the place.

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Jabberwock
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Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:55 am

Probably. While it is lots of fun to play "phantom raider" with brigs and cavalry, or to drop off a division in Macon that heads straight for Atlanta, it feels gamey.

Looking at the rivers in the Carolinas and New York, most of which I am somewhat familiar with, they seem fairly accurate. (Except that the Mohawk should be navigable to river traffic, along with the Erie & Welland Canals; and the Neuss & Tar should both extend one region further for navigability).

The Tennessee was not navigable to Knoxville. The fact that it was often not navigable as far as Chatanooga caused enormous supply problems for Buell, Rosecrans, Grant, and Sherman. It is in large part the explanation for Buell and Rosecrans' reluctance to move forward without secure railroads. There are numerous letters from various naval commanders to various army commanders that say - Yes, yes, I will send gunboats and supplies and transports up the Tennessee River, as soon as there is enough water in it . . . The problems generally seem to start in the east/west portion of the river, the north/south section was fairly consistent.

The Old/Atchaflaya/Western Branch River is an odd case. From my reading, seems like it was impassable (narrow & brush choked) about 40% of the time, normal about 40%, and in flood (hazard to troop crossing: 1.5-2 miles wide) about 20%. It was very dependent on the weather far upstream the Red and Mississippi rivers.

The James was also weather dependent: The Galena was definitely able to get as far as Drewry's Bluff, which would be in the Henrico Region. If you read the article about the Trent's Reach battle, you can see that ironclads and river ships had a very tough time in the same stretch of river that the Galena passed through two years before.

I'm not familiar with the Sabine River system. The historical records aren't as readily available as other areas, because the Federals never made a concentrated effort to invade the region. They would land at the river mouth, take the fort, evacuate to New Orleans, and repeat.

More details:

Farragut ran the batteries at Baton Rouge and Port Hudson and sailed up the Mississippi all the way to Vicksburg after taking New Orleans.

Porter's gunboats and ironclads very nearly got mired in the Red River due to falling water levels. Their lack of maneuverability definitely affected their combat abilities vs. land forces.

I think the level of abstraction is too great. I have three proposals to complicate Pocus and PhilThib's (or some modder's) lives:

1. Tie navigability more closely to weather. During the spring, when the surrounding regions are all mud, a river is likely to be navigable for deeper draft ships than normal. During the summer, the opposite applies.

2. Introduce obstructions and torpedoes (mines) into the game. More federal ships were sunk by mines during the Civil War than by any other means. They're not much fun to game, but they are effective. If the ship vs. shore values were brought back to reasonable levels, I'd still be hesitant to sail into Charleston with three forts, plus obstructions and mines. I'm guessing that it was mostly obstructions that kept the Union navy out of inland Georgia.

3. Create a series of events similar to the cavalry raid events that give a defending player free entrenched artillery when a river force appears. Alternately, but in the same vein, add fixed shore batteries in various places along rivers to the scenarios.
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