Loaned Spanish fleet can't be returned?

[captain14]

The Spanish loaned a fleet to the French. It sustained some damage and was put into Rochfort where it started to repair. The repairs suddenly stopped (despite both France and Spain having naval replacements).
To fix the issue we thought if France returned the ships to Spain.
The ships have now been sailed back to Coruna but remain in French hands as there is no dip option to return them

How can we get the ships handed back to Spain and rebuilt?

Thanks.

[Pocus]

I don't think you can, but if they are in passive posture and the French has some replacements for Spanish ships, it should work (repair)

[captain14]

ooooookay.
So Pocus what you are telling us is that any unit loaned from one major power to another can never revert back to its original ownership?
I just really want to clarify this as this at this will affect every player's decision to loan units.
I mean I doubt anyone will loan anything if they don't think they can get it back.

[Captain_Orso]

OMFG, you should learn to read what you write from the viewpoint of somebody who's not crawling around in your head

Returning the ships to Spain is NOT the same as reverting the control of the ships to Spanish control

IIRC only the player controlling the loaned ships my cancel the treaty. With the French faction loaded, look at the treaties between France and Spain and you should find it there. You break it the same as breaking any treaty. I don't think

Although Pocus said, to gain replacements, to put the ships in PP (Passive Posture), with your own ships, to get repairs/replacements, you simply have to have them in harbor in DP (Defensive Posture). To request for a whole missing element replaced (a whole ship) then you must put the unit into PP, and only then.

In both cases France in this example, must have purchased enough of the proper replacements for hits to be replaced and/or ships to be replaced.

I'm not really sure if you can replace missing ships in a lent unit; I've never tried it.

Remember, replacements don't happens all at once, especially with ships. If you've had experience with AGEod games replacing hits on land units very quickly, well that's just land units, and it depends on the game and the game settings.

Naval units depend greatly on the status of the harbor they are in. The higher the level of the harbor, the quicker hits will be replaced. Naval Engineers increase hit replacement by 5%. I'm not sure, but I believe being in a naval shipyard might additionally increase replacements, but I'm not sure of the latter.

[captain14]

OMFG, you should learn to read what you write from the viewpoint of somebody who's not crawling around in your head
Well sorry for asking we have 7 players half who are veterans who simply want to know how to fix the issue. Not be ranted at for wanting a program to work. We are not all programmers. Responses like the above will simply deter players from posting and sharing their questions and insights (yes some of them have them occasionally). And you don't have to be in my head which is why we posted the game file so one can see it with their own head.

As to the issue The fleets concerned were stationed in passive posture for close to 6 months in Rochfort (which is a naval base)..........so yes we have actually considered those elements well before we posted.

Now I am not going to take the same vein as your outburst. But for we simpletons maybe you can share your acumen and explain
Returning the ships to Spain is NOT the same as reverting the control of the ships to Spanish control Because our group don't understand the difference (as I said we are just poor 7 consumers trying to play a game that we paid for and sharing our problem as others may have encountered it).

Now whilst the pp/base advice was constructive as previously stated we have already tried that. The Program "was" giving replacements to the ships then for some unknown reason simply stopped! Same port, same ships, plenty of replacements!

And in answer to your point about replacing missing ships. I am happy to share my knowledge without insult and can tell you the answer is categorically yes. Because we have done in with this particular fleet, in this game.

IIRC only the player controlling the loaned ships my cancel the treaty. With the French faction loaded, look at the treaties between France and Spain and you should find it there. You break it the same as breaking any treaty. I don't think

Again we have already done this. If you looked at the file you will see neither the Spanish player nor the French player have a fleet loan agreement and yet the ships remain French.

So other than abusing me, Our group has already considered ever single factor you have listed before we posted.
Which all comes back to the reason we posted. Was to get help not be abused.

[Captain_Orso]

Look, here's what you posted, "To fix the issue we thought if France returned the ships to Spain.
The ships have now been sailed back to Coruna but remain in French hands as there is no dip option to return them".

But you were not actually interested in "returning the ships to Spain" but in ending the Lend Treaty.

If you are not clear in asking what you want to know, you send people on wild goose chases, which is a PITA.

Please, ask all the questions you want. I am glad to answer question. But also please be clear in asking, so that the reader can understand what knowledge you are looking for. Sorry that I was gruff.

I can only guess at why replacements stopped being applied to the damaged ships.

Was a patch installed after the game was started?

Are there really enough replacement chits? Replacements, especially with artillery, and ships, and IIRC some cavalry, has gotten rather complex internally, to make it easier for the player. Instead of there being one replacement type for each ship type, there are just ship replacements, which means that small ships tax a replacement chit a little, while big ships tax a replacement chit a lot. I'm not sure of the exact details.

I think I saw 2 chits in the French ship replacements pool, but since when they were there, I have no idea, so I cannot say anything about the history of what happened other than what you have reported.

If everything is as you have reported, I honestly have no idea why it suddenly stopped working.

I also looked for the Lend Treaty with Spain on the Treaties page <F6> and couldn't find it. Also not for Holland, as France seems to have a number of Dutch ships under her control.

I tested Lending Land and Naval stacks a while ago and never saw anything like this. But then again, it was only testing in a limited environment and scope, without a lot else going on at all. No battles, no combined fleets.

How long did France have the Lent ships? IIRC the Lend Treaties only run for something like 48 turns. After that the lent units should convert back to the control of the lending nation, I guess. I didn't actually test for that.

Could it be that the lease ran out, but the ships were so integrated into stacks with French ships, that the game could not handle turning their control back over to Spain? I'm really just guessing here, because I've never seen this situation before.

[captain14]

Apology accepted Orso really no call for it but let's move on.

We "physically" sailed the ships back to Spain simply because we had exhausted every means known to revert control back to Spain through the use of treaties. So it was an act of desperation rather than anything else. Anyway fairly moot as it didn't work (but did show how a collaborative bunch of players on opposing sides will work co-operatively to try and fix a bug.......also how frustrated the crew are).
In fact the only reason The French player is trying to return ownership of the Spanish ships is so they can be repaired.

Re the patch I can't remember (I will check with our group's Tech Officer and get back to you).

The French replacement chits for naval have always been in positive balance so I presume that crosses that issue off the list.

You are correct there is nothing re naval loans on the F6 page for either Spain or France which is what I previously stated.
You stated that loaned units last for approx. 48 turns. Our group has tested that on several occasions and that is not the case the units stay with the borrowing nation. The 48 turns appears to apply to the time period until you can make a new request, not a return date. As I said we have tested this with several nations.
In our case France has had the Spanish ships lent to it from almost the start of the game. The Dutch ships have been loaned for at least a year.

We thought the same as you re the ship integration and therefore separated the Spanish ships from French but that didn't work either.

Re Pocus' comment about reverting control not possible, maybe I am forgetting and not sure but I think we have done this successfully in previous games.

Which all brings us back to what do we do now?

The only thing I can think of, is if Spain loans France another couple of ships. We merge them with the exiting ones and then we can either Spain of France to cancel the deal and see if they revert back to Spanish control?

[captain14]

Just checked with our tech officer and also arbeiter. The game was fully patched before commencement and we have not patched during the course of the game.

[Captain_Orso]

There is definitely a 48 turn period for the Lend-Stack Treaties. I assume it should work in that after 48 turns the Lent Units revert to their owner-nation's control. Apparently there is a bug in this.

Nation's are only allowed to Lend to each allied nation one Land-Stack and one Fleet-Stack at a time. That means that if for example France has two allies, she may Lend one Land-Stack and one Fleet stack to each at the same time.

It works the other way around too, for minor nations, only France must request to have a Stack Lent, and the AI will decide which, if any to Lend.

Once Lent, only the currently controlling nation my "break" the treaty in advance of the 48 turn treaty period; ie. France returns control to the owner nation before the Lend-Lease term has expired. I don't know if there are any penalties for breaking this treaty, but I would think not.

What I see in your game is that France does not have access to the Request a Stack nor Offer to Lend treaties. It might be, that since the Lent units did not revert to Spanish control after 48 turn, that these treaties remain blocked, the same as if the treaties were still running.

That's my guess. I would continue to treat the ships as French-owned and see if the might return to picking up replacements again, maybe after taking a hit or two again just from Wear-n-Tear™ while sailing. I don't see any other options.

BTW There is one special rule, which AFAIK does not apply to your situation. This ist just FYI. Britain cannot Offer to Lend Fleet-Stacks. The borrowing allied nation must request a stack be lent to it from Britain, to which Britain may agree or not. I don't know if this restriction applies to any other nation; at least I have not seen it.

[Durk]

Well Cpt O I must disagree. As Russia I have two Swedish fleets as 'loaners.'
There are also no in game mechanisms to 'break' the treaty which loaned the units.
Thanks for your thoughts, but they clearly do not apply to this situation.

[captain14]

Yes my evidence supports Durk's observations.

On several occasions with minors as France I have gone back and requested more units. Sometimes it is granted sometimes not depending on the AI. Those further requests however cannot occur until the 48 turn (or so) grace period has expired.
We have tested this on several occasions so it is not in doubt. The 48 turn applies to the period you cannot go back and make another request in. It does not refer to the return of units. We originally thought the same as you Orso but after multiple test we learnt the above to be the actual case.

Now in our particular game France (the borrower and current controller) did cancel the naval treaty (in an attempt to get the ships returned to Spanish control, which was only done so they could take on replacements). It didn't work

We have done all this before posting btw.

I guess we could try your wait and see advice but that's hardly fair for the Spanish player.

That's for the tip on the British I will let our British player know as he currently has a loaned Russian fleet.

[Captain_Orso]

Well Cpt O I must disagree. As Russia I have two Swedish fleets as 'loaners.'

Once you have a Loaner-Stack, you may use it as any other stack of units you control, including breaking it up into any number of separate stacks, not less than the constituent number of units. You may also mix them into stacks of other units you control .... or vice versa Penalties for foreign national leadership may apply

There are also no in game mechanisms to 'break' the treaty which loaned the units.
Thanks for your thoughts, but they clearly do not apply to this situation.

Open the Diplomacy page with <F6>. Below the list of factions box there is the Active Treaties box. Search for the entry listed denoting that a 'Force' was lent to your nation. Click on its icon to dispatch a diplomat to cancel that treaty; the tool-tip explains it.

[Captain_Orso]

Yes my evidence supports Durk's observations.

On several occasions with minors as France I have gone back and requested more units. Sometimes it is granted sometimes not depending on the AI. Those further requests however cannot occur until the 48 turn (or so) grace period has expired.
We have tested this on several occasions so it is not in doubt. The 48 turn applies to the period you cannot go back and make another request in. It does not refer to the return of units. We originally thought the same as you Orso but after multiple test we learnt the above to be the actual case.

8<
Nation's are only allowed to Lend to each allied nation one Land-Stack and one Fleet-Stack at a time. That means that if for example France has two allies, she may Lend one Land-Stack and one Fleet stack to each at the same time.
8<

Now in our particular game France (the borrower and current controller) did cancel the naval treaty (in an attempt to get the ships returned to Spanish control, which was only done so they could take on replacements). It didn't work

We have done all this before posting btw.

I guess we could try your wait and see advice but that's hardly fair for the Spanish player.

That's for the tip on the British I will let our British player know as he currently has a loaned Russian fleet.

I will have to check what happens if the Lent units (actually the game calls them Expeditionary Forces) are mixed with another nation's units, when the treaty is canceled. This may be the issue, because it would mean the game engine would have to go through all the units the beneficiary nation controls, pick out the subject ExFor units affected through the treaty cancellation, and per region, put them into their own stack(s), before reverting control of each of these newly created stacks back to their owning nation. I've never tried that.

[Captain_Orso]

Okay, I tested this with land ExFor's. I don't recall what the stacks looked like when I lent them from Russian to Austria (the test environment I used was set up many months ago, but before canceling the ExFor Treaty, I had divided them into 3 stacks; one stack lead be Kutuzov with Russian divisions and Austrian cavalry in it, one lead by Archduke Karl with Russian divisions and Austrian cavalry in it, and one lead by Bagration with only Russian divisions in it, but with movement orders issued by the Austrian player the turn the treaty was canceled.

The results were, that as I had suspected, mixed stacks were properly separated into their stacks by nation, and the movement orders issued by the Austrian player were canceled.

So, at least with respect to land units with the player canceling the orders it seems to work as expected.

BTW this was on 1.03 Public Beta from Feb 2017: WON Public Beta patch February 24th - 2017. The post states that there were issues with Expeditionary Forces fixed in this beta, but I don't know specifically what they were.

I know there are still some issues open with regards to the ExFor functionality, because I was working with Pocus to fix them, but they mostly have to do with text changes to tool-tips to make them clearer, and a function to insure that one or more stacks actually have the Lend Special Order when the treaty is sent, and for the tool-tip to list the stacks by name (stack names are player's responsibility) for player review before sending the treaty. Unfortunately, Pocus ran out of time before we could get the fixes all coded and tested

[captain14]

Open the Diplomacy page with <F6>. Below the list of factions box there is the Active Treaties box. Search for the entry listed denoting that a 'Force' was lent to your nation. Click on its icon to dispatch a diplomat to cancel that treaty; the tool-tip explains it.

As stated in our hst file on the F6 there is "no" naval exp lease between France of Spain for either party. There previously was one and the French player cancelled it in order to try and get the ships to revert to Spanish control, it didn't work. Now there are no treaties for either party in this regard. We already tried all this before posting.

BTW this was on 1.03 Public Beta from Feb 2017: WON Public Beta patch February 24th - 2017. The post states that there were issues with Expeditionary Forces fixed in this beta, but I don't know specifically what they were.
I believe this was to facilitate loaned units because players were previously finding that loans simply didn't occur. That was our previous experience and it was corrected with the patch.

Nation's are only allowed to Lend to each allied nation one Land-Stack and one Fleet-Stack at a time. That means that if for example France has two allies, she may Lend one Land-Stack and one Fleet stack to each at the same time.

No sure about major powers but this is certainly incorrect re minor nations. We have had minor nations lend multiple stacks in several games including the posted current one.

The mixed units stacks with host and loaned troops. You may have a point, we have not examined that as yet.

[Captain_Orso]

As stated in our hst file on the F6 there is "no" naval exp lease between France of Spain for either party. There previously was one and the French player cancelled it in order to try and get the ships to revert to Spanish control, it didn't work. Now there are no treaties for either party in this regard. We already tried all this before posting.

I'm aware that the Active Lend Treaty is not present in the hst file you posted. I was demonstrating where to find it for Durk, because it sounded like he was not aware of this. From my experience, if the treaty has not expired, it will be listed in the Diplomacy window.

I believe this was to facilitate loaned units because players were previously finding that loans simply didn't occur. That was our previous experience and it was corrected with the patch.

I know from testing that GBR can lend Fleets to Russia, but Lending Land Stacks does not work. I tested with both Russia and Austria. The Diplomacy steps work as expected. With both Fleets and Land Stacks, the receiving nation must first request to have these forces lent, and GBR must agree to those proposals and insure that the Lend SO is clicked on on the stacks in question when replying with "OK" to the treaty proposal. But although the treaty is listed on the next turn as having been successful, the control over the Land Stack does not change.

No sure about major powers but this is certainly incorrect re minor nations. We have had minor nations lend multiple stacks in several games including the posted current one.

You mean, while France already has units on load from a minor nation, France can request further units from the same minor nation?

I've never looked into that. It may be WAD, but I don't know. I've never actually read anything on how lending is supposed to work. I mostly figured this out through testing.

The mixed units stacks with host and loaned troops. You may have a point, we have not examined that as yet.

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement.

Again, from my testing, when ExFor Land units are mixed with the receiving nation's units within a stack, canceling the Lend Treaty works, in that the ExFor units, owned by the nation whose treaty is being canceled, are separated into their own stack, and control of this new stack is then returned to the owning nation.

I haven't tested this with fleets. Maybe it just doesn't work with fleets.

I've also not tested what happens when the treaty simply expires, because it is a very time consuming test. You cannot simply run turn after turn until the treaty expires.

If you supply run turn without every player nation having orders, the AI will ask to take over those nations when attempting to execute the turn, and if you don't allow the AI to take over, the turn cannot be executed. If you allow the AI to take over the other nations, it will wreak havoc on your test environment.

You can get around this by turning the AI off, but there is still another issue. Running multiple turns without quitting the game is dangerous because of a memory leak in the game engine. Eventually, after 3 or more turns --from my experience-- you will get an access violation, and from what I've read in the forums, it can corrupt your hst and ord files. The corruption doesn't happen often, but sometimes. Although I have my installation on an SSD it is still time consuming to restart the game over and over again so I've haven't done that yet

*sigh* maybe I'll have to bite the bullet on this one

[Captain_Orso]

Damnit! My teeth hurt!



Management Summary

The Lend ExFor Treaty expiring after 48 turns does NOT work as it ought. It does NOT return the ExFor units to the owner when it expires, if allowed to.

Canceling the treaty, even on the very last turn when it would expire automatically, does work. On the very last turn of the treaty, the lower treaty entry will have disappeared, and the second line of the tool-tip of the remaining treaty entry will read "Duration: 0 turns." At this point the receiving player can still cancel the treaty, and units will be returned to the owner.

-----
My test was based on the August 1805 Grand Campaign.

I had Russia lending the Kutuzov force to Austria directly, without Austria requesting it.

I split Kutuzov's stack into two stacks, and moved the stack with Kutuzov to Pressburg and the other to Vienna. I mixed some Austrian cavalry units into both stacks, and put Francis II of Austria in command of the stack in Vienna to test the separation of units when the treaty is canceled.

Once the lend treaty is in affect, you will find two treaties listed in the Diplomacy window, in the "Treaty[sic.] in Effect" box.

This is the Austrian (receiving) player's Diplomacy window.

HardCopy_20170913_101025-AGE.jpg (697.61 KiB) Viewed 13703 times

We see, that although there is only one treaty in place, two are shown, both with different texts and tool-tips. Very misleading if you don't know exactly what is going on.

These are the Austrian player's tool-tips.

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HardCopy_20170914_052343-AGE.jpg (87.2 KiB) Viewed 13703 times

These are the Russian player's tool-tips from his Diplomacy window.

HardCopy_20170914_052503-AGE.jpg (73.33 KiB) Viewed 13703 times

HardCopy_20170914_052518-AGE.jpg (63.66 KiB) Viewed 13703 times

The tool-tip illustrations were taken at a much later time than the full Diplomacy window illustration, which is why there is a great discrepancy in the "Duration" times between them.

The 1 turn difference between the upper and lower tool-tips however are the way it is.

Both the lending and the receiving side can cancel the treaty at any time before it expires, as long as they have an entry with the tool-tip:

Exp. Forces (given/Received from)
Duration: n turns.

You have (given/received) forces (to/from) the other nation.

Click to break this treaty, using:
Cancel (Give/Receive) Exp. Forces

The receiving player may cancel the treaty still on the very last turn; the lending player one turn before the last turn.

This is buggy in they way it is displayed, and very confusing if you don't know exactly what to expect. The player is forced to pay very close attention, otherwise the treaty can still work with some due diligence on the part of the players.

[Captain_Orso]

I found a workaround for the Spanish ships being locked in French control. It should also work with any other nation, which has lent units to France.

- France sends a Request Expeditionary Fleet treaty to Spain.
> Turn execution
- Spain picks a naval stack with at least 1 ship unit in it --only one is necessary(there is a single ship unit in Cadiz which can be used for this)-- gives the stack the Give Expeditionary Fleet SO, and answers the request with OK.
> Turn execution
- France receives control over this new stack in Cadiz.
- France cancels the Expeditionary Fleet treaty with Spain.
> Turn execution
- ALL Spanish naval units controlled by France, have their control returned to Spain.

That's all folks

[captain14]

Orso we will try this and get back to you.
Thanks.

[Pocus]

Wow, congrats!!

[captain14]

Halleluyah!!

It finally worked!
France put a request in for another loan.
Spain flagged a single transport for transfer.
The log said the transfer was successful but in reality the unit did not transfer and remained Spanish
However a treaty was recorded in the log.
In the meantime France sailed the existing loaned Spanish fleet from Rochefort to Cadiz.
France then cancelled the naval loan treaty (note we had tried this previously).
This time however it worked. The fleet went back to Spanish control (as did 2 Spanish Admirals located in Rochefort).
Furthermore the Spanish fleet began repairing itself.

So thank you Orso for your advice. For the purposes of our game it has been a good result.
Not sure why it worked though (which is a bit annoying), given we had tried the same solution previously.