Just Curious - Any Way to Stop An All-East Union Strategy Featuring 3-star Grant?

[elxaime]

I am finding playing CSA in PBEM quite challenging. Both times I was submerged in the East. The first time was mainly my fault - it was my first time playing CSA and I didn't do well on build strategy or the economy. The second time, though, I don't know what I could have done differently. Grant appeared as a three-star in the east in March 1862 - he was apparently promoted by winning the battle for Island No. 10 back in October 1861 or thereabouts. Now he is advancing at the head of a Union horde that has a combined upwards of 12,000 CP - which is about three times the CP the Rebs have in theater (although more were a-building). Richmond is a sure thing to fall, since the CSA doesn't have a leadership advantage with Grant involved.

Is there any way to stop the all-East early three star Grant strategy? I am thinking that you pretty much have to displace the capital to Atlanta. But beyond that there is simply no way for the CSA to stop a host like that in early 1862 - the Union is basically fielding the army they had in 1864 three years early. It does appear the rest of the map has been left with only token forces, but it is hard to say.

Thoughts?

[Durk]

I have some thoughts, but probably not a complete solution. If the Union gets Grant to Virginia prior to Lee's advent to command, this is tough. The CSA has a huge leadership advantage even with Grant in the East. You need to resist making both Beauregard and Johnston army commanders, pick one.
Know that if the East gambit is the Union strategy, you have an excellent chance to take both St Louis and Louisville. This will more than offset your change of capital to Atlanta.
You have several excellent riverlines to defend. Grant is working with no corps commanders this early and then with mediocre ones soon after. So attend to your out of command penalties. If you can keep these small and make Grant attack over rivers his coordination will not be great and you will have a nice defensive edge.
I tend to play very aggressively in the East. Which means I often have Alexandria as a place to anchor the CSA defense. If you can do this, you will really limit even Grant. A CSA army which can March to the Sound of Guns from Harpers Ferry and Alexandria is pretty tough on the Union.
CSA is hard to play. Look to your leaders.

[Ace]

Against veteran Union player, it's very tough. Gray Fox vs Mickey AAR is a nice read what happens when Union puts everything east under competent leadership. It is not impossible, but very tough to do some damage to him. Try not to spread your Corps too thin. Don't spread them 3 regions wide, that's the error most people often doo. Spread them max 2 regions so all your army can participate in a battle, and build up your rail. Using your rail is the key to the game...

[elxaime]

Against veteran Union player, it's very tough. Gray Fox vs Mickey AAR is a nice read what happens when Union puts everything east under competent leadership. It is not impossible, but very tough to do some damage to him. Try not to spread your Corps too thin. Don't spread them 3 regions wide, that's the error most people often doo. Spread them max 2 regions so all your army can participate in a battle, and build up your rail. Using your rail is the key to the game...

The leadership gap is not wide. The Union army is commanded by Grant with the largest corps under Kearny who is an excellent leader.

[Durk]

The leadership gap is not wide. The Union army is commanded by Grant with the largest corps under Kearny who is an excellent leader.

I am not certain I agree. The CSA can staff down through the division level with leaders better than 3-1-1. The USA cannot even staff at the corps level without using 3-1-1 leaders.

[elxaime]

I am not certain I agree. The CSA can staff down through the division level with leaders better than 3-1-1. The USA cannot even staff at the corps level without using 3-1-1 leaders.

I think the timing here was key. The massive assault with Grant on Manassass was launched the turn before Lee was active. Due to the way command works, it took two turns to get the CSA corps of Longstreet and Jackson under Lee's control, since I had to leave Beauregard in command while Lee rushed over so my army wouldn't be leaderless in the middle of combat. Meanwhile, two CSA divisions were decimated. Grant plus eight corps meant the entire front was covered by a blue carpet rushing forward, so defending north of Richmond would have just meant being encircled.

If the assault was launched one month later, it would probably have been a different story. Lee would have been in command and the CSA had been heavily recruiting. Those units would have arrived by then, giving Lee and his corps 6,000 or so CP in entrenched positions, which means the initial attack wouldn't have been so catastrophic. 1861 promotion of Grant is deadly.

[ArmChairGeneral]

But a 3-1-1 Corps commander under Grant can end up with pretty solid stats. The OFF and DEF ratings, while important, do not really swing outcomes much, especially when you are talking about division commanders. What is most important for Union Corps commanders are the 4 and 5 STRAT ratings that Grant can give them: the Union has the weight of numbers on its side but is not typically active enough to make use of them until Grant arrives. The CSA will get small to medium sized bonuses to hit even when facing Grant but these are not enough to stop the Blue Wave as long as the bulk of Union forces can stay active.

In my Union games against the AI, I make getting promotions for Grant (and Lyons) early my top priority. The Union can field a more than sufficiently sized army in the East to steamroll the CSA AI as soon as Corps formation is allowed if they have leadership that can utilize it. There is still a leadership gap, but I would tend to agree with elxaime that once Grant comes on the scene (and assuming correct play) it will not be big enough to make a difference.

[Durk]

I think the timing here was key. The massive assault with Grant on Manassas was launched the turn before Lee was active. Due to the way command works, it took two turns to get the CSA corps of Longstreet and Jackson under Lee's control, since I had to leave Beauregard in command while Lee rushed over so my army wouldn't be leaderless in the middle of combat. Meanwhile, two CSA divisions were decimated. Grant plus eight corps meant the entire front was covered by a blue carpet rushing forward, so defending north of Richmond would have just meant being encircled.

If the assault was launched one month later, it would probably have been a different story. Lee would have been in command and the CSA had been heavily recruiting. Those units would have arrived by then, giving Lee and his corps 6,000 or so CP in entrenched positions, which means the initial attack wouldn't have been so catastrophic. 1861 promotion of Grant is deadly.

Yep, I get this. The CSA is vulnerable until Lee takes command. My best play in this instance is to make Johnston and Beauregard independent army commanders behind, at least, a river. At this stage, everyone suffers command penalties.

My suggestion, defend further forward. Do what you can to get Johnston to Harpers Ferry and into at least Frederick, Maryland. Or, given your scenario, get him to Manassas early. Produce partisans and break the railroad. A little delay is a game changer.

[Gray Fox]

The CSA player has two strategies. You can play to win as soon as possible or dig in and hope to hold off the Union player. If you chose the long road, the Union can do this:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?39242-Picture-this

I prefer the CSA to take the all out attack in 1861. So I build a force to threaten D.C. :

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?39245-So-Washington-D-C-is-secure-right


This should put a cork in the bottle of any Union plans. If he wants to build a navy and do the historical things, then you should have a shot at taking his capital. After the first Bull Run, Jeff Davis wanted to do exactly that, but his own forces were spread out chasing routed yankees. It's not a sure thing, but if your best General's are active and can form Divisions right away, then this is possible in October 1861 against a maxed out Athena or an unwary Union player:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?34770-Do-you-believe-me-now

However, the Union player can do the smart things, too:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?40180-On-the-defense-of-D-C

So that is my take on CSA strategies. Good luck!

[Orphan_kentuckian]

Hope you don't mind me posting in the thread

I am elxaime's opponent in this PBEM. The strategy I used was pretty simple. I spent absolutely no resources on anything but land forces focusing in the east. Basically every volunteer brigade goes to Little Mac and Hallack around Harrisburg just in FOG and trains them up. Every good commander/elite brigade is also sent there. When corps opened up I had three corps each with 30k men 200 cannon(all 20lb and 10lb artillery divisions).

This strategy also hinges on KY staying neutral. But in truth I have 4 divisions in Louisville, 2 in St. Louis and 2 in Cairo. I also just landed 5 more divisions in 2 corps on the Peninsula, not the elite divisions like the original 3 corps but still formidable.

Personally I think the CSA can withstand this only if they also devote their forces to the east but how are they to know before the hammer blow falls? By then it can be too late. I will post a screenshot when I get off work of the current situation.

[Ace]

I agree, CSA can withstand it only if they go for all East themselves. That raises a question: should union cities west of appallaches hold much more nm and vp value. The fact they were never contested shouldnt be an issue in this what if strategy.

[Orphan_kentuckian]

The attachment CW21_zps1b5uwfng.png is no longer available

So here is the situation in the turn I just sent to elxaime in late June 62'. As you can see I have 6 corps along with Grant trying to surround Richmond. The corps I am showing is one of the original 3 I formed in Harrisburg. They consist of 3 elite infantry divisions with good commanders(mostly)and one all offensive artillery division, around 150 guns give or take.

These plus the divisions I formed in Alexandria smashed into PGT in Mananas with over 120k men and 600 guns. I mean its hard for any commander not to retreat after a few rounds in the face of that. Its bascially just a brute force approach, pushing the enemy out of the region in the face of overwhelming odds.

As it stands now I could probably just go for an all out assault by gathering my forces together, but I thought I would go for the finesse route and see what happens if I can cut off Richmond. It may make enough supply to support his troops there but I want to find out.

-edit: also apologies for the shoddy screenshot...I was in a bit of a hurry. :P

[Nikel]

If Grant is winning the war even before Lee´s command, there is something wrong in the game.


Also huge stacks should be punished by attrition, just looked at the numbers and these are the ratios of deaths in battle:by disease for the Union and the Confederacy respectively:

1:2.3

1:1.7


Does this mean that the South troops were cleaner or better fed? No of course, just that they were fewer.

[elxaime]

Time to play The Guns of the South option and arm my corps with AK-47's brought from the future by time travelers!

Honestly though, I am learning a lot from playing a skilled player.

[Ace]

I used to calculate how much ak47s would be needed to turn the tide...

[tribeticus]

The CSA player has two strategies. You can play to win as soon as possible or dig in and hope to hold off the Union player. If you chose the long road, the Union can do this:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?39242-Picture-this

I prefer the CSA to take the all out attack in 1861. So I build a force to threaten D.C. :

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?39245-So-Washington-D-C-is-secure-right


This should put a cork in the bottle of any Union plans. If he wants to build a navy and do the historical things, then you should have a shot at taking his capital. After the first Bull Run, Jeff Davis wanted to do exactly that, but his own forces were spread out chasing routed yankees. It's not a sure thing, but if your best General's are active and can form Divisions right away, then this is possible in October 1861 against a maxed out Athena or an unwary Union player:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?34770-Do-you-believe-me-now

However, the Union player can do the smart things, too:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?40180-On-the-defense-of-D-C

So that is my take on CSA strategies. Good luck!

When you click the links and look at Gray Fox's early 1861 attack on DC, how does he have JO Shelby that early? Mr. Fox I am assuming you changed the event log (I know how to do that and add generals & change stats etc etc), Im just not sure why Shelby would be in the war that early? He was a Colonel in 1862 in Missouri and stayed out there for the entire war. I could see bringing in Stuart a little early, I just dont get Shelby. What would make the most sense would be to add Turner Ashby to the game and put him with Stonewall Jackson since he was Jackson's version of Stuart at the beginning of the war.

I understand the strategy, as you have explained to me before, I just don't get Shelby. Anyway, I guess that is a side note, and I respect your help on the forum as always.

[Gray Fox]

No, I didn't change anything. He was out west and I railed him in. If you want something to work, you focus on making it happen.

[tribeticus]

Wow, I have never seen him enter the game until late 1864 when he is scripted to enter. I actually changed the game file to bring him in 1863 since otherwise the game would be over before he entered.

[Gray Fox]

That is strange. I haven't modded anything, I just play vanilla.

[ATTACH]39654[/ATTACH]

See the date, October, 1861.

[tribeticus]

One of the best generals in the game, so pretty awesome to get him in 1861, good for you !

[Gray Fox]

In the CW2 dBase for CSA Leader Events, he's with the CSA 1861 Generals. There's a '61 Generals Pool, Division Generals and then Shelby.

[Straight Arrow]

Doesn't Shelby start the game in April 61 in Little Rock?

I think Sibley, maker of tents, is the one that comes in after the CSA 1861 Gernerals event.

[tribeticus]

I have never had Shelby come in 1861 after playing this game way too many times. Sibley is the one who spawns for me in Texas in 1861.

I use the Portrait Mod, and I think the Shelby event was changed in that mod for him to spawn in 1864.

The vanilla version does in fact have Shelby enter in 1861, so this was MY misconception as I never changed Shelby except to bring him in earlier. I did not realize that the portrait mod had that event changed.

True the vanilla version does have Shelby in 1861, I just have not played that version in a long time.

My apologies Gray Fox!!! It all makes sense now!!!

[Gray Fox]

I am pretty sure that my picture proves otherwise.

[tribeticus]

You are right Mr. Fox, my apologies!!! At least now I can change Shelby to spawn earlier!!! I edited my previous post by forgot to re-post it until now.

[elxaime]

You are right Mr. Fox, my apologies!!! At least now I can change Shelby to spawn earlier!!! I edited my previous post by forgot to re-post it until now.

Something I just learned is that the option to change the capital from Richmond to Atlanta fires later in the turn, not at the start. The Union assaulted near-empty Richmond and the CSA took a 50 morale hit, then later in the same turn event log was the message that the capital had been moved to Atlanta. So I assume you have to give yourself an extra turn ahead to let the change of capital event fire if you expect Richmond to fall?

The morale count at present is Union 157, CSA 70, even after Lee got 9 NM defeating a wild frontal attack by Grant. The south may rise again, but not this day - time to concede this one. Good work by my opponent in delivering a perfectly timed Grantsunami!

[Durk]

The morale count at present is Union 157, CSA 70, even after Lee got 9 NM defeating a wild frontal attack by Grant. The south may rise again, but not this day - time to concede this one. Good work by my opponent in delivering a perfectly timed Grantsunami!

Yes, timing the move of the capital is essential.

[Ace]

Does anyone think usa should get vp and nm maluses if they fail to protect their mayor cities beside Washington

[Captain_Orso]

They do for some, I believe, but they are fairly minor penalties, depending on the size of the city.

[elxaime]

They do for some, I believe, but they are fairly minor penalties, depending on the size of the city.

If they make a CW3, I'd love to see them give more attention to the political considerations and restraints faced by both Lincoln and Davis. I realize there is some of this with the On to Richmond rule for the Union (which needs some work too). But one thing to remember is that neither Lincoln nor Davis was an absolute dictator. They both had to keep coalitions of states happy, at a time when states meant more than they do now. This often meant mustering forces and fighting battles in locations that perhaps made more political than strategic sense.

RUS has an interesting take on this, with its identification of some forces with specific geographic regions and the assignment of the most senior officers to GHQ established in set locations. You have events that affect the leadership and you have generals like Stalin who have strongly negative impacts that you cannot resist. Players for both the Red and White forces are forced to do the best they can with what they have, while still leaving plenty of room for creativity. But you really feel that you are immersed in the politics of the Russian Civil War. By contrast, CW2 too often feels like what matters is crunching the numbers to get the Killer Stack as early as possible where you want it. McClellan gets sent to the rear, etc.

EAW also has, albeit only at the start, the Strategic Plans that each side can choose. These affect initial dispositions, cohesion bonuses and victory locations. The EAW ultimate mod also adds the idea of yearly "grand offensives" which have each player choosing regions where they will make their greatest efforts. I could see such strategic plan choices as spicing up CW2 substantially.

If they make CW3, they should definitely get the EAW and RUS designers into the loop to offer ideas.