Hoping someone can help with this level of detail, I have searched a bit but can't find anything that explains this ...
My expectation is that an elements damage factors (i.e. OffFire, DefFire and Assault) are impacted by the number of hits currently in the element.
so for example a zero experience un-upgraded line infantry regiment has (taken from CMN_Inf1)
OffFire = 10
DefFire = 16
Assault = 10
Hits = 20
Men per Hit = 30
I am not sure if the 10/16/10 represents the values for a 100% element and it is adjusted for missing hits or if those values are per hit
i.e.
Element with 20 hits would have 10/16/10 or 200/320/200
Element with 10 hits would have effective stats of 5/8/5 or 100/160/100
I also have an expectation that Men per hit would not impact the final calculation
Anyone know how this actually works?
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Cardinal Ape
- General of the Army
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:59 am
There is a damage stat. I don't think the amount of damage an element inflicts can change. If the element scores a hit it will always do the listed damage.
An elements chance to hit is impacted by their cohesion and health levels.
From the combat explained wiki:
CM = Cohesion Modifier. For a stack in attacking stance, penalties begin if the firing element is at 40% of their max cohesion or less. The modifier decreases slowly by then, until it reaches about 0,75 for a cohesion of 0,03/max. But: With a cohesion of 0, the multiplyer is 0!
HM = Hitpoint Modifier. This modifier is 1 as long the unit has more than 0,5/max of it's healthpoints. With less than 0,5/max, it's 0,75, with less than 0,25 it's 0,5.
An elements chance to hit is impacted by their cohesion and health levels.
From the combat explained wiki:
CM = Cohesion Modifier. For a stack in attacking stance, penalties begin if the firing element is at 40% of their max cohesion or less. The modifier decreases slowly by then, until it reaches about 0,75 for a cohesion of 0,03/max. But: With a cohesion of 0, the multiplyer is 0!
HM = Hitpoint Modifier. This modifier is 1 as long the unit has more than 0,5/max of it's healthpoints. With less than 0,5/max, it's 0,75, with less than 0,25 it's 0,5.
It won't show in the interface, but this is taken into account during combat. If you check the detailed battle log, you should see something like "Firer value with penalty from losses" ...
In a nutshell: less than 25% of hits: half fire value. Less than 50% of hits: only 75% fire value.
In a nutshell: less than 25% of hits: half fire value. Less than 50% of hits: only 75% fire value.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
Thanks Pocus .. appreciate your input too
Where this came from was that I was looking to make Cavalry regiments smaller than the 600 men they are now.
So I wasn't sure if i would get the desired adjustment to effective fire and assault values by just adjusting the hits in the model or whether I also needed to adjust the fire and assault values themselves down a little bit to not make them OP.
I now know I need to adjust the Off, Def & Assault values .. so i shall do some calculations and get to it
Where this came from was that I was looking to make Cavalry regiments smaller than the 600 men they are now.
So I wasn't sure if i would get the desired adjustment to effective fire and assault values by just adjusting the hits in the model or whether I also needed to adjust the fire and assault values themselves down a little bit to not make them OP.
I now know I need to adjust the Off, Def & Assault values .. so i shall do some calculations and get to it
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Not sure they would be OP if you gave them fewer hits, if anything I would think they would be worse.
Let's say you want a 10 hit element compared to the current 20. The element receives combat penalties if it goes below 50% of its TOTAL hits. In this case that is 5 hits vs 10 hits for the stock cav. Since the number of hits it will be taking from enemy fire is not going to be any different, it will last half as long on the battlefield before it begins to suffer combat penalties. Further, it will take less hits before it has to make shaken and rout checks, which must also be taken into consideration. Short of giving it more protection, you really cannot make it so that it takes less damage, so an element with the exact same stats but half the max number of hits will become shaken, suffer combat penalties or rout sooner than one that the full number of hits. As long as it stays combat effective, however, it will do the same amount of damage with the same percentages to hit as the full sized unit.
If you wanted to represent smaller units that were less able to deal damage to the enemy you would be better served basing your model on the normal number of hits of standard cav, ranger or mounted partisans but adjust the firepower and or damage downward. If you want them to be more fragile then give them fewer hits, but remember that they will break almost as easily as militia in combat. (Presumably they will have decent morale so won't fail shaken and rout checks as often as a militia would, but will have to make the checks more often than a 15 hit militia or a 20 hit cav element would have to.)
On a side note, the number of "men" reported by the game is for decorative purposes only. The basic unit of measure is "hits." The number of men displayed is calculated by multiplying the number of hits by an arbitrary multiplier in the unit's model. You can adjust this multiplier to anything you like in the game files so that your unit will display the number of "men" you want it to show. Mechanically, however, there is no part of the engine that does any kind of calculation using "men," everything is based on the hits. So you could go through the files and cut every "men" number in half and you would Poof! get a war that involved half as many "men" in each battle and half as many casualties. The costs, performance, number of units on the map, etc. etc. would be unaffected and the game would play out exactly the same way but the number of "men" participating and being killed would show as half as big, and it would still cost you the same number of replacement chits to bring them back up to full strength as if the number of "men" displayed were larger.
If you want to do this just because you think 600 "men" men is implausibly large then it is easy to do so, just change the number in the cav file to what you think it should be and presto chango, they now have fewer men. Their performance in battle will be unaffected and will not require any other scaling. If you want to make them weaker but make more of them available in the build pool or adjust their cost down, then that is doable too, though a different question and a more extensive modding task.
Let's say you want a 10 hit element compared to the current 20. The element receives combat penalties if it goes below 50% of its TOTAL hits. In this case that is 5 hits vs 10 hits for the stock cav. Since the number of hits it will be taking from enemy fire is not going to be any different, it will last half as long on the battlefield before it begins to suffer combat penalties. Further, it will take less hits before it has to make shaken and rout checks, which must also be taken into consideration. Short of giving it more protection, you really cannot make it so that it takes less damage, so an element with the exact same stats but half the max number of hits will become shaken, suffer combat penalties or rout sooner than one that the full number of hits. As long as it stays combat effective, however, it will do the same amount of damage with the same percentages to hit as the full sized unit.
If you wanted to represent smaller units that were less able to deal damage to the enemy you would be better served basing your model on the normal number of hits of standard cav, ranger or mounted partisans but adjust the firepower and or damage downward. If you want them to be more fragile then give them fewer hits, but remember that they will break almost as easily as militia in combat. (Presumably they will have decent morale so won't fail shaken and rout checks as often as a militia would, but will have to make the checks more often than a 15 hit militia or a 20 hit cav element would have to.)
On a side note, the number of "men" reported by the game is for decorative purposes only. The basic unit of measure is "hits." The number of men displayed is calculated by multiplying the number of hits by an arbitrary multiplier in the unit's model. You can adjust this multiplier to anything you like in the game files so that your unit will display the number of "men" you want it to show. Mechanically, however, there is no part of the engine that does any kind of calculation using "men," everything is based on the hits. So you could go through the files and cut every "men" number in half and you would Poof! get a war that involved half as many "men" in each battle and half as many casualties. The costs, performance, number of units on the map, etc. etc. would be unaffected and the game would play out exactly the same way but the number of "men" participating and being killed would show as half as big, and it would still cost you the same number of replacement chits to bring them back up to full strength as if the number of "men" displayed were larger.
If you want to do this just because you think 600 "men" men is implausibly large then it is easy to do so, just change the number in the cav file to what you think it should be and presto chango, they now have fewer men. Their performance in battle will be unaffected and will not require any other scaling. If you want to make them weaker but make more of them available in the build pool or adjust their cost down, then that is doable too, though a different question and a more extensive modding task.
I agree with everything you say there and the issues you describe are what I am trying to work through at the moment.
This question was about getting an understanding of how the various attributes of an element were applied during combat so I understood the implications of some of my options.
It was not just a case that I want Cavalry regiments to be numerically smaller than Infantry regiments, though that is a goal from a historical perspective, but I do want to try to get them to perform in combat with a reasonable approximation as to how they did historically. A challenge given the evolution of tactics, troop quality and weapons over the course of the war, particularly the Union Cavalry.
In 1864 I would probably back a Union cavalry brigade with Spencers over any unentrenched infantry brigade.
In 1863 they had staying power for 1 or 2 rounds of combat defending against Infantry. (Possibly representative of Confederate cavalry over the course of the war)
Before 1862 I am not sure I would back them against an unarmed boy scout troop, not that you would ever have seen much of a Union cavalry brigade before 1863.
- Antietam they had 13 regiments and 4 batteries (approx 3,000 Cav and 22 Guns) organised into 1 division and 5 brigades (4 x 2 regiments, 1 x 4 regiments + 1 regiment unattached, average regiment strength 230 men)!!
So I am trying to get the right balance of Off/Def fire, hits and cohesion to get the combat results I am looking for, I can then adjust men per hits to get the regiment size I would like to see.
This question was about getting an understanding of how the various attributes of an element were applied during combat so I understood the implications of some of my options.
It was not just a case that I want Cavalry regiments to be numerically smaller than Infantry regiments, though that is a goal from a historical perspective, but I do want to try to get them to perform in combat with a reasonable approximation as to how they did historically. A challenge given the evolution of tactics, troop quality and weapons over the course of the war, particularly the Union Cavalry.
In 1864 I would probably back a Union cavalry brigade with Spencers over any unentrenched infantry brigade.
In 1863 they had staying power for 1 or 2 rounds of combat defending against Infantry. (Possibly representative of Confederate cavalry over the course of the war)
Before 1862 I am not sure I would back them against an unarmed boy scout troop, not that you would ever have seen much of a Union cavalry brigade before 1863.
- Antietam they had 13 regiments and 4 batteries (approx 3,000 Cav and 22 Guns) organised into 1 division and 5 brigades (4 x 2 regiments, 1 x 4 regiments + 1 regiment unattached, average regiment strength 230 men)!!
So I am trying to get the right balance of Off/Def fire, hits and cohesion to get the combat results I am looking for, I can then adjust men per hits to get the regiment size I would like to see.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
The game already includes a lot of cavalry variation over time, since early cav conscripts are highly ineffective but progress quickly along their upgrade path. Moving from conscript to regular provides a major upgrade in vision, and first experience star gives even more benefits to stealth and evasion ratings. In fact, it is important to keep an eye on the relative development levels of your cavalry on an element by element level: a two stack made up of two starred cav is more evasive and has higher survivability than a two stack made of a starred cav and one that isn't.
Cav reach their peak effectiveness as scouts in the mid-game when they have accrued several stars but have not yet been "upgraded" to Late Cavalry. Late Cavalry suck, with a max 4 Detection, and I hate it when they start upgrading on me as scouting effectively goes dark once they all finish. (Balloons enter their own at this stage as one of the few units with 5 detection available.) Since they are much less useful and at greater risk as scouts, Late Cav get mixed into front line divisions where they fare better than their early counterparts would have and can generate or screen against pursuit damage. (Stacks with 15 or more cav reliably produce consequential pursuit damage.) Alternatively they can be mixed into 50-50 divisions with infantry (make sure there is rifled artillery along too, though not necessarily mixed in the divisions) and used in dedicated finishing stacks to smash low-cohesion low-health, passive retreaters.
Cavalry and the way they are used changes over the course of the game, which it should since it did change historically. How well it gets the right balance of accuracy vs. abstraction is open to question, of course, but historical progression exists within the current model. This may provide a useful avenue of approach for you: tweaking the existing upgrade model might prove the easiest and simplest method to accomplish your aims.
Cav reach their peak effectiveness as scouts in the mid-game when they have accrued several stars but have not yet been "upgraded" to Late Cavalry. Late Cavalry suck, with a max 4 Detection, and I hate it when they start upgrading on me as scouting effectively goes dark once they all finish. (Balloons enter their own at this stage as one of the few units with 5 detection available.) Since they are much less useful and at greater risk as scouts, Late Cav get mixed into front line divisions where they fare better than their early counterparts would have and can generate or screen against pursuit damage. (Stacks with 15 or more cav reliably produce consequential pursuit damage.) Alternatively they can be mixed into 50-50 divisions with infantry (make sure there is rifled artillery along too, though not necessarily mixed in the divisions) and used in dedicated finishing stacks to smash low-cohesion low-health, passive retreaters.
Cavalry and the way they are used changes over the course of the game, which it should since it did change historically. How well it gets the right balance of accuracy vs. abstraction is open to question, of course, but historical progression exists within the current model. This may provide a useful avenue of approach for you: tweaking the existing upgrade model might prove the easiest and simplest method to accomplish your aims.
I had never looked at those evasion/detect numbers between early and late Cav, quite strange that they drop! I need to look at those more closely. I was always of the opinion that cavalry improved as the war went on, particularly in those areas.
I could never quite grasp why the Infantry tech upgrade resulted in lower cohesion, assault and TQ values but since I have modded infantry into base and veteran (Elite) I have taken tech upgrades out for Infantry anyway. I think the way the game manages experience stars and improves stats off that is quite good and sufficient to emulate the movement from raw to experienced troops. I also felt that except for a few specific infantry regiments getting issued (or buying their own) breach loaders and repeaters the majority of troops used rifled muskets and muskets for the entire war.
The tech upgrade is the path to deal with early vs late cavalry however .. or specifically the move to Spencers and Henrys. I think a slight increase to fire stats and a big increase (2 to 4) in ROF will actually get me the result I am looking for. I need to test that out now. Though it would have helped if I had made those changes in the game files rather than just my backup files
I could never quite grasp why the Infantry tech upgrade resulted in lower cohesion, assault and TQ values but since I have modded infantry into base and veteran (Elite) I have taken tech upgrades out for Infantry anyway. I think the way the game manages experience stars and improves stats off that is quite good and sufficient to emulate the movement from raw to experienced troops. I also felt that except for a few specific infantry regiments getting issued (or buying their own) breach loaders and repeaters the majority of troops used rifled muskets and muskets for the entire war.
The tech upgrade is the path to deal with early vs late cavalry however .. or specifically the move to Spencers and Henrys. I think a slight increase to fire stats and a big increase (2 to 4) in ROF will actually get me the result I am looking for. I need to test that out now. Though it would have helped if I had made those changes in the game files rather than just my backup files
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
If you want to mod then there is a value you can change for that
expXPLevelUpgRetainPerc = 10 // % xp kept when TrainUpg/TechUpg
This is the GameLogic.opt file in CW2 > Settings folder .. so you can change that to 100% if you want
You do need to be careful of that though, in the vanilla game there can be quite big stat changes between models as you train or tech upgrade, upgrading + retaining XP can result in a significantly more powerful element. Equally if there is not a significant improvement of stats in the upgrade model you end up with a weaker element, I don't think that balance is quite right in all the models.
expXPLevelUpgRetainPerc = 10 // % xp kept when TrainUpg/TechUpg
This is the GameLogic.opt file in CW2 > Settings folder .. so you can change that to 100% if you want
You do need to be careful of that though, in the vanilla game there can be quite big stat changes between models as you train or tech upgrade, upgrading + retaining XP can result in a significantly more powerful element. Equally if there is not a significant improvement of stats in the upgrade model you end up with a weaker element, I don't think that balance is quite right in all the models.
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