Take The Reins

[Straight Arrow]

When you have a force in a hostile area, the MC can change in your favor; how is this calculated?

[GraniteStater]

Very carefully and with highly advanced mathematics:

[ATTACH]37898[/ATTACH]

[Durk]

By MC I think you mean Military Control. Page 62 of the manual has a pretty complete explanation. Military Control is very different from loyalty.
If contested with a force from both sides, the side with offensive posture gains more control.
If the area is not contested but just hostile, then any non-support units will begin shifting. Also, units in passive posture do not influence military control.
Because I want to influence loyalty also, I usually use at least a corps sized units to shift control. Important in the latter years when Converting Railroad to Union use is important.

[Straight Arrow]

Yes,

I know the rules say, “leave some Units to occupy it, you will gain complete Military Control in one or two turns, depending of the amount of troops you have. A Corps on the march can even convert a region in a few days!”

And the Wiki states, “Whenever you have combat units in a region, they will increase your control of it, depending on how many and how large the units are, as well as their*police rating.”


What I am hoping for is enough specific information to allow the crafting of small stacks dedicated to rapidly shift Military Control. In many areas, ripping up rails is not enough to stop overland supply. But if you can are shift MC below 25%, your foe’s supply lines will dry up.

It’s possible to use a Corps to carry out this task, but it would be much more efficient, if multiple, smaller, less costly forces could carry out this task.

[Straight Arrow]

Yes,

I know the rules say, “leave some Units to occupy it, you will gain complete Military Control in one or two turns, depending of the amount of troops you have. A Corps on the march can even convert a region in a few days!”

And the Wiki states, “Whenever you have combat units in a region, they will increase your control of it, depending on how many and how large the units are, as well as their*police rating.”


What I am hoping for is enough specific information to allow the crafting of small stacks dedicated to rapidly shifting Military Control. In many areas, ripping up rails is not enough to stop overland supply. But if you can shift MC below 25%, your foe’s supply is blocked.

It’s possible to use a large force or a corps to do this, but it would be much more efficient, if multiple, smaller, less costly forces could assigned this task.

[GraniteStater]

For whom, the North or the South?

Project management - resource allocation. Even as the North, creating a whole buncha wannabe min-Divs to run around and steal Aunt Becky's laundry doesn't strike me as the best way to keep Uncle Abe happy.

As the South? "Look at the bones, man!"

You ain't got Stuff to Throw Around in Experiments.

Cut off the enemy in strength. Raid, yes, rip up rails, interdict key points, give the oppo pause to guard and keep a sharp eye out.

But the best way is to take Objectives. The South losing New Orleans is a Big Ouch, especially in $$. Losing Richmond cuts 1/4 of CSA recruitment (1/4!).

A Really Good Blockade Can Hurt.

Not so sure about sending a swarm of 150 PWR stacks around trying to assert MC - which takes time. And once you're gone, Loyalty starts to assert itself - and Loyalty Takes Forever.

NM, the Map (the MAP!!!), VP situation, Resources - tend to these.

But feel free to play it the way you want - maybe you'll discover something.

Best of luck,
GS

[Cardinal Ape]

A rough estimate is around 1% MC gained per day per element. Diminishing returns may be present. Also varies based on the elements police stat. Some randomness may be involved; a quick rerun of the same turn gave different numbers.

If I want to gain enough MC in a region to use the railroad where I have no MC in one turn I use at least 5 cavalry. For total control in one turn a division sized force would be needed.

If an enemy force is present then you will need to be in offensive posture, otherwise defensive posture is fine. One posture does not give more than the other.

[Straight Arrow]

Thanks Cardinal Ape,

So a small, cavalry division has the potential to block supply through an area in 1 turn. Very useful information when trying to isolate a force.

[GraniteStater]

Thanks Cardinal Ape,

So a small, cavalry division has the potential to block supply through an area in 1 turn. Very useful information when trying to isolate a force.

It's been a long time for me, but I'm not sure I would draw that conclusion.

His Eminence said, use the RR. IIRC, you need only 25% MC to do so. He also said Five Cav - I'm a bit fuzzy, but those would usually be five elements for Cav. 5% a day? Dunno what you can do with that.

To deny Supply, I think you need 75% MC or more.

I've been away for a long time and am, by no means, any kind of an Expert, but I did play CW2 a lot at one point. I also published a Supply Primer of sorts on AACW (and a short naval discussion).

Putting a 150 PWR stack in a region and looking forward to Supply interdiction in a few Turns just strikes me as It Ain't That Easy, that's all I'm saying.

Need to refresh myself on numbers, but...believe me, I know I would've been trying to seal up quite a few Rebs in my day with Cav stacks, but I've been there, tearing up track, cutting off routes - even when I've had Johnny in a box, the Supply possibilities can surprise you.

You usually need strength to make it secure. Light to medium forces can get shooed away. Light to medium oppo will flip your posture and then you've got a fight where maybe you didn't want one. I'll bet Loyalty enters into it, also. Pro-Other Side needs to have the MC nailed down, IIRC, otherwise, the MC starts to evaporate without a continuous presence.

I'm not a big numbers guy, I play by historicity and military experience, by the seat of my pants. I could be wrong, but somehow, running Cav or Partisans around trying to get any solid MC doesn't strike me as the most effective solution. Just my instincts.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Well, any combat unit, even a partisan will block supply just by being there. But if you want to get MC to the point where supply is blocked without your presence in one turn so that it stays blocked behind you, then a Cav division will probably get the job done. It might take two turns, depends when you arrive. I am pretty sure that if the region is 100% enemy MC, you will need to be in Offensive posture to begin to affect the MC. Once you have some MC, then Defensive is sufficient (I don't have the game in front of me to check, but I think that's how it works). It is worth noting that MC effects are based on actual time spent in the region. Just passing through will not be enough at the speed of cavalry.

When I am trying to cut off retreaters I sometimes use a Cavalry cloud of two- or three-element stacks to block supply, and a larger stack standing across their best path to safety to force them into unsafe territory. I try to pre-establish MC across areas I know the enemy will advance in so that I only need to cut off the single path they have carved through my MC. (Obviously not applicable in Virginia and Maryland.)

[GraniteStater]

Which is what I was trying to say - yes, you can cut off things ad hoc - making them stick is another thing.

[Captain_Orso]

IIRC the only things that really matter for taking MC without a fight is the total police value of all units in the region--battles won in the region can swing MC to the winning side greatly.

If you are trying to gain so much MC in a region, that no supply can pass through it until the other side retakes the MC, you are doing it wrong. The size of the force will have to be so large--anything above 4 elements is not 'small--that it will be easy to spot, and since you are sitting on a Union rail line, even though the Union will possibly not be able to use the rail line in that one region, you are asking to have your hat handed to you in a less then neighborly manor.

I would rather send partisans in, which are not only small, but stealthy on top of that. Unless there is cavalry right in the neighboring region, they will likely not even be spotted. One on the rail road, and one on each side, and supplies will be blocked between almost any two depots completely--remember, just because you hold a rail line region, doesn't mean supplies cannot move around that one held region.

Partisans are cheap and Cavalry is far from cheap. If you've got enough cavalry to sit around on rail lines chewing tobacco, you're just playing around.

[Straight Arrow]

Well, any combat unit, even a partisan will block supply just by being there.

Paint me pink; all the time I've been playing, I've never tumbled to that simple and easily seen fact.

This game is layered like an onion. Hell, I'm starting to think I won't get a grip on it until the End Day's trumpets blow.


I'm going to push work aside today and reread the rules.

Question: will a friendly unit in an area cancel out this effect and allow supply to flow through?

[Straight Arrow]

Kapitän-Bär said, [color="#FFFF00"]One on the rail road, and one on each side, and supplies will be blocked between almost any two depots completely--remember, just because you hold a rail line region, doesn't mean supplies cannot move around that one held region.[/color]

It sure would of helped to have know this in my last game.

[GraniteStater]

Kapitän-Bär said, [color="#FFFF00"]One on the rail road, and one on each side, and supplies will be blocked between almost any two depots completely--remember, just because you hold a rail line region, doesn't mean supplies cannot move around that one held region.[/color]

It sure would of helped to have know this in my last game.

Ahh, we're all learning, always learning. I wrote a Supply Primer in AACW - doesn't mean I was an Expert on Supply, but after finally figuring out why my troops were starving to death in southern Pennsylvania in September of 1861, reading the manual some more, seeing why Burnside in a '62 start was about to blow away on the wind from the shores of Beaufort, SC, why, if you're going to play Super Hard/Realistic with Replacements only at Depots, you need to bring a Lot of Wagons with you to build Depots, 'cuz leaving the trenches to go potty is a real bummer...

I shared what I believed I learned. Was I right in every single detail? Nope. But I believe it helped clarify some points and others chimed in on the subject. A merry feast was held in due course.

As a result, I can play the Supply Game purty darn well, both assurance & denial. Basically, for me, as the Union, it boils down to Extreme Paranoia.

I'm pretty comfortable with the naval aspects, too, and have written some posts on the subject. Others know more, but I have a clue or two.

Frontage? I read other's posts. Cards? Same. How to create havoc with irregulars? Getting better.

Tactics? Still learning, big time - newbies kin school ya, buhleeve me.

Welcome to perhaps the most well modeled military strategy game around.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Yeah, supply will find a route if there is one available so interdicting one rail isn't always enough for cutting off troops. This idea is the basis behind what I was talking about with pre-establishing MC: if you have 100% MC across a broad front only their path of advance gets converted to their MC, and everything other than their direct path of advance will be closed for them, so you have fewer regions you need to interdict. The three Partisans thing gets the job done handily, for similar reasons.

Sitting across rails for more than one turn with any light force is dangerous against Athena, she will come knock you out, and since she has so many troops shuffling endlessly back and forth from town to town you are likely to get caught randomly by one too (God only knows why she has any of these in Offensive Posture, but there you have it).

Orso,
Rest assured that this is not what I primarily use my Cav for, but Athena regularly gives you chances to surround/herd overextended and defeated stacks to their ultimate doom, and clamping down on their supply and blocking their best route home till you can deliver the killing stroke is a tried and true technique. My cav are constantly buzzing around doing lots of different things, (I think of them as a swarm of bees) but when I smell the chance for a stack-wipe, those tasks take a back-seat, and they get right in on the action. Would I stick a two element scout stack behind a fully sized and healthy Corps expecting to cut off his rail supply? Hell no, they would be wiped out quickfast (and so would Partisans, nothing is THAT stealthy). Partisans are stealthier, but Cav are more numerous and thus more likely to be on-hand and easier (though more expensive) to replace if things turn sour. It is worth noting that in the situation I described the enemy stacks are usually in passive posture so can't engage my cav anyway.

In terms of Straight Arrow's posts, I have been in situations that doing what he describes is eminently feasible and sometimes even necessary. In most games as the CSA I break through in Louisville/New Albany and get access to the midwestern rail sea, where MC is critical to give you mobility and to deny rail travel to the Union. The Union sends endless 1000 PWR stacks at you that are easily lured into danger, cut off, surrounded and destroyed. Having a highly mobile stack that can swing big fractions of MC in one turn would be very useful there (although not every single turn, mostly I would have them broken up and spread across the area doing their thing).