Making Money

[tribeticus]

I have read these forums so much that I get in trouble with my wife. SO please forgive me if this question is covered elsewhere, I have done my best to find it.

I have seen posts about using the telegraph line and developing areas, especially in the 3 areas for the union with gold mines (development) and with advanced cities with ports and iron works (telegraph). I have never really seen much influx of money. My ships in the shipping lanes are usually bringing in far less than their capacity, especially when France hangs out in the box too.

Here is a short list of questions that also should help a lot of other people:

1) Should I send transports to the Carribean and over next to where France and England are on the map? (Top Right and Bottom Right boxes) will this help bring in some cash? Should I build new transports or save the resources by dispersing what I have since the capacity used shrinks when France occupies the box (i.e. using 2000/6000 capacity)? What about the Gulf lanes?

2) Has anyone noticed any specific monetary gain to playing the development card, clearing, and telegraph at the gold mines?

3) Loyalty is supposed to help right? Does playing Habeas Corpus in well developed areas like Baltimore and DC help? How do I get these big cities with factories to crank out more cash?

4) I usually average about $400-$500/turn, is that good?

5) Should I avoid printing money because of inflation?

6) I always make Iron Works first as I read that helps but I don't really see it...but it helps with WS

7) I never pay for conscripts because money is always my bottleneck, I always have plenty of conscripts especially towards the end... I know some cards don't work at all or only rarely, so I am wondering if I need to spend all the extra time managing this or just forget about it. Money is my bottleneck as the Union and I have not seen a huge amount of change since I started micro-managing things like this. But maybe I forget just how poor I was before.


Suggestions? I think this discourse would help a lot of people...

Your Civil War Friend,

Tribeticus

[Gray Fox]

1. Your merchant and ocean transports must be in the Atlantic shipping box to be able to bring in resources.

2. I have no info about this.

3. Loyalty over 50% is supposed to boost resource production. It is my experience that 100% loyalty only increased production by $1/one Conscript company/one WS in a given location, so I don't recommend pursuing this.

4. That should be fine as the Union.

5. You should avoid losing. That's all that counts.

6. If the Union has 500 WS in stock, then 50 WS per turn may be sold as an event for $50. This should be factored into a ROI for the construction of an Iron Works.

7. As the Union, I build the Ironworks that are available in 1861. I also build all of the ocean transports and use them in the shipping lanes. I raise any additional money as needed. This gives me enough resources to build a pretty good army. I shoot for sustaining one full Division produced every other turn. Resources above that go into the extras those Divisions need to form Corps/Army stacks. You want synergism, not 10 knives, 8 forks and 4 spoons.

[tribeticus]

Can always rely on you for a good answer...thanks again Gray Fox.

Anybody have any factual info about developing the gold mine areas and using the telegraph cards to boost revenue?

What is a normal income for the CSA?

I have never seen an option to sell War Supplies for $50 but I always have massive additional WS as the Union. Is this done automatically?

[Gray Fox]

You're always most welcome!

I usually just skull drag Athena's Union right out of the starting blocks, but I have done tests where I got over half of the Union numbers for each resource.

Check your message logs. I've had it happen a lot.

[tribeticus]

You're always most welcome!

I usually just skull drag Athena's Union right out of the starting blocks, but I have done tests where I got over half of the Union numbers for each resource.

Check your message logs. I've had it happen a lot.

At the risk of sounding totally clueless, what do you mean by "skull drag Athena's Union"?

[Gray Fox]

A skull drag is when you whack something and carry it to the campfire so that it's skull drags on the ground. I typically put the pieces together so that I can take D.C. as soon as possible. I did it in AACW by April '62 when the Corps kicked in, so I tried it just with one army stack of great Divisions in October of '61. Booyah!

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?34770-Do-you-believe-me-now

[tribeticus]

A skull drag is when you whack something and carry it to the campfire so that it's skull drags on the ground. I typically put the pieces together so that I can take D.C. as soon as possible. I did it in AACW by April '62 when the Corps kicked in, so I tried it just with one army stack of great Divisions in October of '61. Booyah!

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?34770-Do-you-believe-me-now

Well done! I have done that on some of the easier settings, not yet on Colonel.

At this point I am trying to draw out the war on a harder level to promote Generals I think are most deserving and play the long game.

I want to see a huge battle between Kearny and Lee which would have happened if Kearny wasn't killed as he would have gotten a shot at running the Army of the Potomac! Just had a big one between Jackson and Fitzjohn Porter (who was a good General but got outpoliticked during the war and spent the rest of his life fighting the courts over getting screwed over by other generals...).

But way to show Athena what's up!

[Gray Fox]

Thanks! A lot of discussions back then on Union strategy painted the CSA as a punching bag. Invade NO. Strike down the Mississippi. Build up your blockade fleet and industry. Hold Alexandria to defend D.C. I pointed out that until Corps came into play, none of the stacks MTSG, so only an army in D.C. defends D.C. Hence, the thread title "Do you believe me now?". I believe that changed the discussion a bit.

[tribeticus]

Thanks! A lot of discussions back then on Union strategy painted the CSA as a punching bag. Invade NO. Strike down the Mississippi. Build up your blockade fleet and industry. Hold Alexandria to defend D.C. I pointed out that until Corps came into play, none of the stacks MTSG, so only an army in D.C. defends D.C. Hence, the thread title "Do you believe me now?". I believe that changed the discussion a bit.

I am sure it did change the conversation!

And in real life I think that there could have been a real major attack on either capital in 1861.

[Captain_Orso]

8<
3) Loyalty is supposed to help right? Does playing Habeas Corpus in well developed areas like Baltimore and DC help? How do I get these big cities with factories to crank out more cash?

IIRC playing Habeas Corpus either prevents or reduces production, so if increasing production is your goal...

Personally, the only places I every really try to increase loyalty are Saint Louis, in order to be able to build Missouri artillery, and then in Baltimore, simply because I can. To do this I put Buell in Saint Louis as soon as I get him. By the time he arrives on the scene, I've usually got Grant running the Army of the Tennessee and he covers enough of Kentucky that I don't need a second army there.

Once I'm satisfied with loyalty in Saint Louis, Buell heads east so that IF the South gets into Baltimore, they won't have as much from it.

8<

5) Should I avoid printing money because of inflation?

No, never. If you're short on money, print those greenbacks.

6) I always make Iron Works first as I read that helps but I don't really see it...but it helps with WS

I used to do that, but I discovered I don't need them. Instead of paying $750 for Ironworks, I'll invest it in transports, and put those in the Shipping Box.

Especially later in the war you will be swimming in WSU and the 50 WSU which get sold by event each turn once you have >500 in surplus won't hold balance with production.

I will build anything that produces Ammo though.

7) I never pay for conscripts because money is always my bottleneck, I always have plenty of conscripts especially towards the end... I know some cards don't work at all or only rarely, so I am wondering if I need to spend all the extra time managing this or just forget about it. Money is my bottleneck as the Union and I have not seen a huge amount of change since I started micro-managing things like this. But maybe I forget just how poor I was before.

Conscripts are always my bottleneck. I try to hold off on calling for conscripts until directly after getting an NM boost, but if I really need them badly, I won't wait. I'll also generally pay the highest price I can afford to get the largest number of CC's and then feed off of them for a few months.

Suggestions? I think this discourse would help a lot of people...

Build, build, and then build some more.

Protege Grant, Lyon, Sherman, and Kearney as soon as they arrive. Give them the best divisions, get them promoted, and use them on the offensive. You can always dig-in you mediocre leaders in a defensive position, where their being inactivated doesn't matter. But you need leaders who are active most of the time to move aggressive, or to react to an unsuspected move by the enemy.

Once mid '63 arrives, you'll have so many great leaders you won't know what to do with them all.

Control the inland waterways. You'll be sorry if you don't.

[tribeticus]

Thanks Captn.

I guess I figured using Habeas increased loyalty and therefore production. Suppose that was not correct but I read it somewhere.

I generally can get good leaders to get good abilities and keep the bad ones in the rear, like Banks and Butler are not really ever in charge of much of a force if any...

I don't usually have a shortage of ammo so I usually don't build those things right away, I never seem to get around to the Powder Mills. But I heard iron works makes money -- If the only way iron makes money is though the surplus, then I am wondering if I need it since its expensive to build and I may have a surplus anyway.

I guess my main new question is: I take the majority if the free transports that spawn in the beginning and put them in the shipping box which gives me a max of about 6000 capacity. Out of this capacity I am usually limited to about 2000 of actual usage leaving 4000 untouched. Is this because of France navy in the shipping lanes or blockade runners? How do I take advantage of the unused revenue in the shipping box? I don;t see a reason to build more transports until I can use what I already have to its potential -- unless I am just always limited to a percentage of my maximum capacity in which case I guess I see a reason to increase overall capacity to achieve a larger sum based on the percentage of a larger aggregate. Ideas???

[Straight Arrow]

3. Loyalty over 50% is supposed to boost resource production. It is my experience that 100% loyalty only increased production by $1/one Conscript company/one WS in a given location, so I don't recommend pursuing this.

But consider this - the 1$ and 1 conscript per area can add up - after all, the game has the potential to last 100 turns, Early April 1861 to Late May 1865. But, how ever long the game lasts, times that figure by high loyalty areas and the result will be a fair amount of money and manpower.

Now, I'm not suggesting player spend cash to raise loyalty levels, but there are a few development cards that will raise loyalty without costing cash.


Also, NM has a major impact on income production.

[LCcmdr]

Thanks Captn.

I guess I figured using Habeas increased loyalty and therefore production. Suppose that was not correct but I read it somewhere.

I generally can get good leaders to get good abilities and keep the bad ones in the rear, like Banks and Butler are not really ever in charge of much of a force if any...

I don't usually have a shortage of ammo so I usually don't build those things right away, I never seem to get around to the Powder Mills. But I heard iron works makes money -- If the only way iron makes money is though the surplus, then I am wondering if I need it since its expensive to build and I may have a surplus anyway.

I guess my main new question is: I take the majority if the free transports that spawn in the beginning and put them in the shipping box which gives me a max of about 6000 capacity. Out of this capacity I am usually limited to about 2000 of actual usage leaving 4000 untouched. Is this because of France navy in the shipping lanes or blockade runners? How do I take advantage of the unused revenue in the shipping box? I don;t see a reason to build more transports until I can use what I already have to its potential -- unless I am just always limited to a percentage of my maximum capacity in which case I guess I see a reason to increase overall capacity to achieve a larger sum based on the percentage of a larger aggregate. Ideas???

after about a dozen games (yes, I'm new to the family of AGEOD addictions), I've decided that the loss of 1 loyalty pt for Hab. Corp. is just enough to negate the "wealth" gained by Telegraph (particularly in St. Louis). Consequently, I use billeted troops to raise loyalty.

Place your telegraph cards in major cities that have a 75 rich rating: once loyalty surges, those cities will produce more cash as 80+ cities and provide more recruitment, too (I believe this to be factual). Use the axe and development cards to raise low wealth regions above 25, since this impacts travel costs per sector, as well.

As to the Iron Works, I'm a firm advocate of building at least all the Iron Works and Arsenals (which provide double cash over any other mfg. No, $2 alone is not much; but with the biweekly sschedule, that's $4/mfg times all those built. Let's say you've built 15 factories, six which are arsenals. That's $21 per turn ($9 from Iron Works or Amories or Powder Mills + $12 from Arsenals). Since gold mines (3 in existence) produce $10/turn, you've nearly caught up with gold mines by investing. OTOH, over investing in factories will deprive you of much needed troops early on. As the Union, it's the early crunch that gets you pinched for quality regulars. As the CSA, it's both short and long term impacting. I still haven't found the right balance; but, I lean toward slower investment in mfg as the South, deferring to do so later after I've fielded a half dozen 106 size brigades. As the North, I'm less cautious with the money, since there's so much more income.

[ArmChairGeneral]

I mostly play as CSA, but in my few Union Grand Campaigns I was flush with cash, troops, and pretty much everything I needed except CS; for that I made sure to have cash on hand to spend on volunteer decisions, and then built most of my divisions with the big chunks that I got over the next several turns. In between volunteer decisions I used the regular CS flow for replacements or for a steady build up if there wasn't a lot of fighting going on. I didn't feel the need to build Ironworks or extra transports (although I did put all but a couple of the scripted transports into the box). Instead I used those resources to build up a steamroller timed for the Corps-unlock and and won handily (this is on Colonel, fixed activation rule, +2 (occasionally +3) AI Activation bonus, the middle setting for Detection bonus (too high can sometimes mess up the AI) and the least advantageous Naval Handling option (I don't like to micromanage the navy)).

I'm not trying to brag, (mid-62 is not that impressive of a win) instead I am asserting that resources spent on Industrialization are more effectively spent putting troops in the field that can then go and win battles. Winning battles is how you gain NM, which in turn increases production as much or more than the (very expensive) industrialization options. Yes I spend all my money every turn, and yes I could always use more, but the amount of resources the Union gets is already more than sufficient to defeat the AI even on the highest difficulties. IMO, if $$ is your bottleneck then you are buying too many fancy toys and not enough infantry and artillery. You don't need Ironclads, you need 12-15 divisions under Grant marching on Richmond.

I normally shy away from printing money but I don't hesitate to do it if I have a good reason (like getting enough cash to buy 300 volunteers or if I am involved in a lot of fighting as the CSA and can't keep up with replacements). I need to do it more often as the CSA than as the Union, obviously. I do use all my Draft and Requisition RGDs, whichever side I am playing. I play them in irrelevant locations like Texas as the CSA and IA/WI/MN as the Union.

The CSA begins with a critical WS shortage which makes an early IW a necessary expense. That combined with putting all the scripted blockade runners into the boxes is pretty much all that is needed to build enough troops to go out and get some early NM wins to get production up to speed. Once you start winning battles as the CSA, WS problems disappear since you capture a lot on top of the increased production from any NM gains.

As far as loyalty goes, I agree with Fox that the benefit you get is not what is advertised in the usual sources, although I feel like I have gotten more than just +1 money by raising NO from the 60s to the 90s. This is difficult to prove however, since it takes so long to bring up loyalty that it is hard to show conclusively without sandboxing that the increase in production is from loyalty or from other factors like NM. I wouldn't recommend spending any resources to affect loyalty, but there are plenty of free ways to do it, and I make a point of taking care of New Orleans and/or St. Louis. (Baltimore doesn't produce enough money to go out of my way for, CS is unaffected by loyalty, and imore WS is irrelevant to the Union).

As far as I know, increasing a region's civilization level (Wild, Rich etc.) does NOT affect the resource production of its structures, though it may or may not affect structural production of GS and Ammo (I don't think it does, I just haven't proven it). I use the Clearing and Development cards on poorly developed regions in NM and AR/MO to help with supply flow and movement, but have unfortunately not found the Telegraph to do anything useful in bigger cities (although I want it to very much!).

The easiest way to increase $$ production (outside of naval boxes) is to capture Farm Fields/Plantations. Each is worth $3 for you and -$3 for the opponent, a swing of $6, which is not bad for capturing an out of the way and undefended rural region. Plus they produce like 50 or 75 supply per turn, which is handy when invading. (Yes the AI will try to take it back, but that is a good thing.) For the CSA, industrialization at swordpoint is an important source of production growth: capturing St. Louis or Cincinnati is at least as good as an Armory/Arsenal decision.

[LCcmdr]

Great info! and thanks for correcting and challenging some of my experiential opinions.

[Gray Fox]

Tribeticus, the French fleet has no effect on your shipping lanes unless the CSA has somehow activated Foreign Intervention. The numbers you mention (6000 capacity, 2000 actual, 4000 untouched) refer to supply points that your transports/merchant fleet help the AI redistribute among your ports. Each turn the supplies in your big ports like NYC and Boston get evened out with the other ports you have. This is an extra feature and doesn't affect the trade mechanism. So, the transports and merchant ships in the Atlantic Shipping Lanes box move supplies from the east coast to Fort Pickens. Totally exclusive to this game feature, they also bring in dollars and WS from trade every turn. I always build every ocean transport ASAP and position them in the shipping lanes to boost the economy. They have a good Return on Investement.

Hypothetically, if you build 5 Union Iron Works, they produce 40 WS along with $5 each turn. However, after 13 turns they might have stockpiled 520 WS and start giving you a lot of cash by event. In much less than one year they are payed off. Also, if you have a lot of WS, then the game mechanic for determining trade from the Shipping Lanes fleet will concentrate on bringing in dollars. Thus the synergism of shipping and IW's get you lots of resources.

[tribeticus]

I have to say, you guys all rock.

Thank you so much for your input and your time with the responses.

[Gray Fox]

FYI, with all the Union Ocean Transports deployed to the Shipping box I was getting $70 and 104 WS from trade. With the additional IW, this gave me something like 300+ WS in Oct. '62 with 105 NM. In addition to the trade input, I got $50 from excess WS sale for a total of over $400. IIRC, I had 124 conscript companies coming in. Inflation was -1%.

[Cardinal Ape]

When I have a bunch of conscripts sitting in my pool I feel like I have to build them up as soon as possible. Its like they are burning a hole in my pocket and they need to be spent.. This usually causes me to not save enough money for artillery. So I have stopped using the 2$ pay per each volunteer, the 750$ is not worth the extra 250 conscripts. I go with 1.5$ per volunteer most of the time now, I find it leaves me enough cash to use all the conscripts and build a decent artillery force.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Heck, as the CSA, once my NM is over 120, I don't pay anything. I still get almost as many conscripts as I can afford to use (considering that I also go pretty heavy on arty, so need fewer CS than otherwise) without spending anything.