Epic Western White Campaign: A Post-Mortem

[Respenus]

I have just finished my week long Western White campaign and there is only one word to describe it: Epic. Well, epic and exhilarating (and slightly exhausting). Together with Rise of Prussia representing musket warfare, Revolution under Siege Gold is the pinnacle of the classic AGE engine and design. Simple to play yet immensely complex under the hood, the combination of railway, regional decisions (F7 screen), and the ups and downs of the Russian Civil War scenario come together to produce, in my opinion, the finest title to have been published by AGEod (followed closely by ROP and AJE/BOR).

While playing against a human opponent would present an even greater challenge and quite possibly rob me of my victory, the AI proves itself more than capable of being an annoyance to the player and may sometimes pull the rug from under your feet. Unfortunately, it is often far too focused on running around, avoiding a decisive conflict, meaning that it fails to take advantage of clear opportunities than would otherwise force the human player to be on his guard, forcing him to keep troops in reserve and to spend valuable resources on garrisons rather than field troops. The AI especially shows its limit with the Eastern Whites, who often sent strong(-ish) stacks to regions guarded by large Western White armies, even with the Greens and Reds pushing hard on them in their own territory. In the end, however, even a veteran AGEod follower will find in the AI a strong enemy to contend himself with.

I must also report some problems with the game. I unfortunately did not spot the latest patch, so I played with the 1.01 version which was uncharacteristically "crashy", especially at the beginning and end of turn resolution. Fortunately, the game processed turns normally after a reload and I am certain that the latest patches have fixed the problem. If someone is interested in my save games and log files, do let me know.

Furthermore, I have two suggestions for future fixes. The first concerns the Polish-Soviet war. Because I was so successful, I was able to limit the number of troops the Reds were able to send against the Polish and I even captured strategic cities that in the end led to a quick ahistoric Polish victory. The unknown side effect of this was that my armies were all teleported to Crimea, with no easy direct connection to the Donbas theatre. I was forced to reload and delay my offensive actions and thus buy myself the couple of turns I needed to bring my troops back. I would recommend that the Mauripol region is left open to the Western Whites or that the player is given a turn or two before the evacuation event hits.

My second suggestion concerns the capture of Moscow. After its capture (and the death of Lenin in the battle), the Reds not only did not surrender or suffer a massive NM hit, they were actually gaining it! In the end, even after I had captured all of their strategic cities and reduced their armies to a few ragtag troops running from Wrangel, their NM was 90+, approaching 100. Again, I do not know if this was fixed in a later patch, but the Reds should feel a sting from having lost their capital.

If someone on the fence about buying this game is reading this post, here is my short suggestion: BUY IT! (Although I must encourage responsible spending, so at least put it on your must-buy list). Play it alone or with a friend; if you have the call of the wargamer inside you, this game is a must-have for your collection.

[arsan]

Interesting! Did you play with the standard RUS or the Gold version?

[ERISS]

Thank for you advice!

concerns the capture of Moscow. After its capture (and the death of Lenin in the battle), the Reds not only did not surrender or suffer a massive NM hit, they were actually gaining it! In the end, even after I had captured all of their strategic cities and reduced their armies to a few ragtag troops running from Wrangel, their NM was 90+, approaching 100. Again, I do not know if this was fixed in a later patch, but the Reds should feel a sting from having lost their capital.

Maybe you're some right, but this morale does not so shock me: The NM is the morale of fighting people, not strictly of the Party:
People were mainly paesants and they didn't care about cities. Even, maybe they were happy you quite removed the Party with its Cheka, and now they can hope (just a dream?) to remove yours later.. Sure it can't however reach 100NM..

[ERISS]

Interesting! Did you play with the standard RUS or the Gold version?

He wrote Gold, read again the beginning of his text.

[arsan]

You are right! I missed that

[Respenus]

@ Arsan

Thank you for reminding me. It was indeed the Gold version and the first time that I saw the White campaign through to the end. I liked the original well enough, but it had some problems with events, which is why I was looking forward to Gold. The added events for the Whites and the additional limitations imposed (having to connect the two white factions in order to recognise independence of former Czarist territory) was a great idea and added historical colour to the game. I was surprised, however, not to see an element found in a RUS mod, which added "corruption" as something the Western Whites need to constantly fight against. This made it even more difficult to push against the Reds who historically had the support of the general population.

Regardless, it took me around 30 hours to finish just one playthrough of one faction, choosing a single development path. Furthermore, examining the Game Events Chronology PDF makes it clear that there much still left undiscovered and that in the future, I may give one of the other factions a playthrough of their own (preferably with two other human players).

@ERISS

You may be right, but having lost ALL strategic cities, being defeated left, right and centre, and with regional decisions pushing loyalty to 60%+ in almost all but the most central regions (which I did not control long enough to put through several reform decisions), one would think that the Reds would be a bit more disheartened. Still, it is such a minor point, there is nothing to complain about. Although it would be nice to have a pop-up message saying a few words about the capture of Moscow and the death of Lenin (a major event, one would say).

I have also attached my final turn, so that you can what was going on at end of the game.

[andatiep]

Thank you for your nice comments about the game, Respenus

Furthermore, I have two suggestions for future fixes. The first concerns the Polish-Soviet war. Because I was so successful, I was able to limit the number of troops the Reds were able to send against the Polish and I even captured strategic cities that in the end led to a quick ahistoric Polish victory. The unknown side effect of this was that my armies were all teleported to Crimea, with no easy direct connection to the Donbas theatre. I was forced to reload and delay my offensive actions and thus buy myself the couple of turns I needed to bring my troops back. I would recommend that the Mauripol region is left open to the Western Whites or that the player is given a turn or two before the evacuation event hits.

Well, there is 2 explanations about that :

1) In game scripting terms, it could create problem or absurd situation to move automatically huge armies in the Southern theater if this theater is deep in enemy territory at the moment in the game you play. Your opponent would desagree with the fact that all this troops could have fly and jump the former front line in Ukraine to be behind its lines.

2) In Historical terms, remember that the Poles don't care at all of the Russian Whites destiny. If they sign a peace treaty with Red Russia which grant them the control of Ukraine, Bielorusia and Baltic states, they don't care anymore of the Russian White forces. And the most probable diplomatic what-if would have been that the Reds and Poles sign a peace treaty with clean borders without troubles from a third faction at the new Polish satellites' borders.
So where to push to go all this embarrassing Russian Whites which could remain in Ukraine when Polish victory happen and new stable borders with Russia should be recognize by the world : in Crimea.

[ERISS]

the Poles don't care at all of the Russian Whites destiny. If they sign a peace treaty with Red Russia which grant them the control of Ukraine, Bielorusia and Baltic states, they don't care anymore of the Russian White forces.
So where to push to go all this embarrassing Russian Whites which could remain in Ukraine when Polish victory happen and new stable borders with Russia should be recognize by the world: in Crimea.

So, if not already, that should be (better?) explained in a tooltip/event.

Andatiep, about the 2nd problem of Respenus, don't you think the Red morale should be however further balanced?? (maybe not so, I think just a little, but it could easily go in the reverse if not done good)
I guess you're wondering about, looking his last turn..

[Nikel]

I want to thank you, andatiep, for the work you have done with RUS Gold. Though I prefer my portrait of Sirovy

And extend the thanks to the betas involved and of course to the original developers of the game that sadly vanished.


You could have formed an unstoppable team with Clovis but so is life.


I hope you did not finished too burned after the long process of improving RUS. Any other Ageod project for the future?


And sorry to Respenus for hijacking a bit his thread.

[Respenus]

@ andatiep

I understand your position. Of course, in real life, if the Western Whites helped liberate the majority of Ukraine, the Poles would have to recognise some of their claims, but in game scripting terms, the way the event is set up right now is the best of all worlds. My only problem was that I suddenly found all of my armies in Crimea and not a single simple way of moving them to Donbas. So the only thing I would like to see is for Mauripol to be open for Western Whites so that they could move their troops back to Donbas and Tzaritsyn without having to first build transport ships or try the almost impossible task of moving via Kerch. By forcing all White troops in the Ukrainian theatre into Crimea, you can (and will) set back strategic plans, giving an unfair advantage to the Red player, who would then have free reign in other southern Theatres.

I also just remembered another element of my campaign that is fairly important. The Eastern Whites managed to maintain the Komuch government, which in the long term allowed me to get the Finns into the war and use their, as well as the Baltic and North-Western Russian troops to capture St. Petersburg, with was the real turning point in the war and allowed me to be finally certain of my victory. So even though I complained about the behaviour of Eastern White AI in my OP, it did something "impossible", so congratulations on that front as well.

@ Nikel

No worries. I am also happy that the Gold version got made and was enjoying my campaign immensely.

[andatiep]

My only problem was that I suddenly found all of my armies in Crimea and not a single simple way of moving them to Donbas. So the only thing I would like to see is for Mauripol to be open for Western Whites so that they could move their troops back to Donbas and Tzaritsyn without having to first build transport ships or try the almost impossible task of moving via Kerch.

Why you need to build transport ships ? Don't you have it already with the French or Russian White fleets of the North and Black Seas ?

By forcing all White troops in the Ukrainian theatre into Crimea, you can (and will) set back strategic plans, giving an unfair advantage to the Red player, who would then have free reign in other southern Theatres.

The historical fact is that a Polish victory CAN NOT be a Russian White victory because this 2 factions are just enemies (2 opposing imperialism) which don't fight each other just because of a bigger menace.
It is hard to simulate that geopolitical fact in the game. I agree that the Western and Eastern White Human players should really read the chronology of events and options .PDF file in the Docs repository to be aware of the Polish victory consequences. If you would have read that before, you would have move your Russian White forces in better places, preparing the event.

Some could say that a Polish victory should be avoid by the White players to not allow all the red troops on the Polish front to be available to crush the remaining Russian Whites. Maybe that could be true if you fight against an AI like you did and when the Eastern White AI playing the Polish win strangely without destroying huge red forces. But against a human opponent, be sure that a Polish victory means most likely huge losses for the Red troops.

It's hard to design a game for the AI and in the same time for the Human players. Indeed RUS Gold was made by Human volunteers for Human PBEM players in priority. Most volunteers' motivations were given for the true challenge to fight Humans, not AI. And after all, there were no time, means and skills to balance perfectly all the Options and events consequences for the AI.

Also, remember the Polish victory change the victory conditions for the Reds : they later can only win by VP's. Sometimes they will lose anyway even if crushing the remaining Russian Whites just because they lose already to many VP's comparing to the 2 White factions.
What was the list of the Western Objectives cities you had when Polish Victory happen ? Didn't you or the Eastern Whites win already at this stage ?

About NM debate, just remember that the game victory conditions are not related to NM but Objective cities or VPs. The game is not design to let a side collapse because of lack of NM like before. Because it was really not fun when it lead to short victory and short games where you never see the second half of a campaign scenario and its events, and because this civil war was a kind of total war and the last fighting remaining troops could not expect mercy from the other side. Most of the last remaining Russian White troops fought well in the History, and the last Red troops would have probably do so, even after the fall of Moscow, because most of the revolutionary troops would die or be deported anyway from the hand of the new regime.
The effect of bad moral on the troops is also somehow already simulated with the regular desertion events and other systems.

[andatiep]

I want to thank you, andatiep, for the work you have done with RUS Gold.

Thank you.

Though I prefer my portrait of Sirovy

Sorry for that

You could have formed an unstoppable team with Clovis but so is life.

I'm not guilty for that.

I hope you did not finished too burned after the long process of improving RUS. Any other Ageod project for the future?

No : Now i play RUS Gold PBEMs !!!!!

[Respenus]

Why you need to build transport ships ? Don't you have it already with the French or Russian White fleets of the North and Black Seas ?

Actually no. The French Black Sea fleet disappeared somewhere along the way and I have no idea if it was because of something I did (perhaps forgot about it and left it out in open waters to be destroyed by the bad weather) or because it was removed by an event. As for the White fleet, I sent it to the Baltic Sea (I thought it would be more useful there) and there was no way of getting it back to Crimea.

It is hard to simulate that geopolitical fact in the game. I agree that the Western and Eastern White Human players should really read the chronology of events and options .PDF file in the Docs repository to be aware of the Polish victory consequences. If you would have read that before, you would have move your Russian White forces in better places, preparing the event. /snip/

I recognise this and luckily when playing against the AI, I was able to go back for enough turns and move everyone out. I also recognise and agree with the focus of RUS Gold and of the historical and gameplay restrictions that had to be taken into account. Again, I believe that the way the Soviet-Polish war is set up in the game is the best one considering how the AGE engine works.

Perhaps you would understand my views better if I described my in-game situation at the time. The Reds were beaten back, but still fighting and far from having lost Moscow (the only strategic cities I had were in Crimea, Donbas, the North and the cities necessary for the political connection of the two White factions). However, the starting Western White regions were cleared of Reds, my armies were built up and I was preparing for my Moscow offensive. As such, I was not in danger of being beaten back by the Reds (far more likely when playing against humans) and I controlled (that is MC) the regions in Crimea, Donbas and Eastern Ukraine. This is why having all my troops in Ukraine teleported to Crimea was so problematic, as it cut me off from having troops in a position where I could deploy them quickly towards Central Russia.

This is why I proposed that the Mauripol region be left open to Western Whites to move through. This way, if, when fighting against a human opponent, the Whites are as successful as I was, they would not need to think this far in advance and be forced to move their troops back to Donbas just because the Polish were about to win their war. You can still teleport every White unit in the Ukraine Theatre to Crimea, the only change would be that they could now use Mauripol to quickly and easily get back in the fight.

There is also one railway region between Rostov and Voronezh that is part of the Ukraine theatre and that cuts in two the direct route between these two cities when the Polish-Soviet war is over. I find it odd that the Whites would have to go all the way around via Tzaritsyn and Tambov to get a railway connection with Voronezh.

What was the list of the Western Objectives cities you had when Polish Victory happen ? Didn't you or the Eastern Whites win already at this stage ?

I did not already win as this stage (see first part), but the Polish victory occurred immediately when the 4 major war objectives were captured (Minsk, Kiev, Ekaterinoslav and Kharkov). Ekaterinoslav was under my control, as was almost Kharkov, but when I reloaded the turn, I sent my troops away so that the Polish had to capture it themselves.

About NM debate, /snip/

OK, I understand completely. No issue there. I was just surprised that the fall of Moscow and death of Lenin seemed to have zero effect on the Reds (not controlling the four Polish war strategic cities hit them more strongly in terms of NM). But now that you have explained the reasoning behind it, I have no problem with it.

It's hard to design a game for the AI and in the same time for the Human players. Indeed RUS Gold was made by Human volunteers for Human PBEM players in priority. Most volunteers' motivations were given for the true challenge to fight Humans, not AI. And after all, there were no time, means and skills to balance perfectly all the Options and events consequences for the AI.

Well then, all I need to do is find human players for the next campaign

[Baris]

It could hurt Red VP not pushing war to as internationalists aim. I wonder which option could be more practical in PBEM, whether united Reds or dictatorship.
Was the Red AI army mostly consist of concripts late game? I wonder maybe Red build pool could be extended further to conquer all objectives if they stay as concripts.

[ERISS]

So, to make it short, RUS-Gold is the best Ageod game,
and its 2 small flaws are rather 2 tiny flaws
which have maybe just to be better explained ingame to be corrected
just some text to be added somewhere, to prevent some surprise frustration.
It reminds me a mod on another AGE game
adding ingame a diary of the future and possible events (rather than in a pdf.)

[Respenus]

So, to make it short, RUS-Gold is the best Ageod game,
and its 2 small flaws are rather 2 tiny flaws
which have maybe just to be better explained ingame to be corrected
just some text to be added somewhere, to prevent some surprise frustration.
It reminds me a mod on another AGE game
adding ingame a diary of the future and possible events (rather than in a pdf.)

Exactly!

Although I would like to hear your thoughts on opening the Mauripol and Millerovo regions to both the Whites and the Reds in case of a Polish victory. It seems very gamey that I can walk to the very north-eastern border of Crimea, but I cannot cross to Taganrog. The same applies for the railway connection between Rostov and Voronezh. I can walk around Millerovo region to get there, but I cannot use the railway that is just "next door".

[ERISS]

Although I would like to hear your thoughts on opening the Mauripol and Millerovo regions to both the Whites and the Reds in case of a Polish victory.

If Polish victory, Poland decides
(I think the Whites would have nothing entitled left to say)...
The question is about the theaters:
are they well historically defined? Could the polish influence go this far?
If yes, there is no opening to be made (even, it should please the triumphant poles to bother some russians).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium
And even if let go through (surely with a great cost), they will surely be attacked here on the way (they would be let pass, without so much weapons..) by the makhnovist paesants (even if they were military defeated)...
Or by an option for the Whites to declare war to Poland (as I think Ukraine become a polish protectorate)..., as if against Reds was not enough.

It seems very gamey that I can walk to the very north-eastern border of Crimea, but I cannot cross to Taganrog. The same applies for the railway connection between Rostov and Voronezh. I can walk around Millerovo region to get there, but I cannot use the railway that is just "next door".

If yes to the past questions, at least then the player has to be warn about this,
and maybe he would decide to early retire manually his troops to a better place, than the automatical crimean default area where to suffer like the Czech Legion fate!

I think I'm not far from the intended: To be confirmed/refined by Andatiep...

[Baris]

I think avarage perception in balance should still be in historical background info not gameplay still which is pity. Many contributed in previous years or it is not?

[Baris]

I would conclude answer it is 'Epic' but could have faults. Thanks to Eriss and Andatiep always ! and previous modders and testers. I hope some faults should be recognized. As It will make perfect game only better.

[ERISS]

I would conclude answer it is 'Epic' but could have faults. I hope some faults should be recognized. As It will make perfect game only better.

Sure, we must not just stand together felicitating

I played with the 1.01 version which was uncharacteristically "crashy",

Thanks to Eriss and Andatiep always! and previous modders and testers.

Oh, don't hail me in 1st position! Even, I don't deserve to be sticked here to Andatiep. That's not for I write much on the forum that I had so worked on the game... that's even a thing that had prevent to..
I think Andatiep should have an idea of who could come after him in the thanks for this version of RUS, I mean not alphabetically like in the end of game manual lol

[Baris]

Faults I mention related only to Red numbers which could be related to slight adjustments to build pool. Since yet I did not see real analyisis from new players from pbem I thought not to disturb topic that I cleared my previous post.

[andatiep]

Although I would like to hear your thoughts on opening the Mauripol and Millerovo regions to both the Whites and the Reds in case of a Polish victory. It seems very gamey that I can walk to the very north-eastern border of Crimea, but I cannot cross to Taganrog. The same applies for the railway connection between Rostov and Voronezh. I can walk around Millerovo region to get there, but I cannot use the railway that is just "next door".

:mdr o you know what is an international border ?
As said ERISS, the Poles and their Ukrainian Nationalists allied would rule and decide, and most likely keep the full control and neutrality for Mariupol (main eastern Ukraine access to the sea). As well as for Milerovo which was by the way fully occupy in purpose by the Germans when Ukraine was their puppet states in 1918 (Brest Litovsk), when it was the reds at this period which couldn't use the railway all along because of that... Like it is designed in the game in campaigns starting in 1918.

But of courses, this is only fiction... and an alternate History where the Poles would have let this regions to Russia in purpose could have happen too...

[andatiep]

If Polish victory, Poland decides
(I think the Whites would have nothing entitled left to say)...
The question is about the theaters:
are they well historically defined? Could the polish influence go this far?
If yes, there is no opening to be made (even, it should please the triumphant poles to bother some russians).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium

If we look at this informations, it show that the Polish plans in case of victory was to include also Crimea into their puppet states or "federation" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium#Pi.C5.82sudski.27s_.22Mi.C4.99dzymorze.22

So that means that RUS Gold design is already too good and kind with the Russian Whites because it still let them the use of Crimea... .

[Respenus]

Thanks for the explanation guys. I did find it odd that you could not just use something so obvious and in front of your eyes, but if something like this was managed in real-life, then who am I to argue about this.

Again, RUS Gold is a fantastic game and this does nothing to diminish its overwhelming strengths.

[ERISS]

the Polish plans in case of victory was to include also Crimea into their puppet states or "federation" :
So that means that RUS Gold design is already too good and kind with the Russian Whites because it still let them the use of Crimea... .

You already (almost) answered in your post just before:

But of courses, this is only fiction... and an alternate History where the Poles would have let this regions to Russia in purpose could have happen too...

We can imagine the south white succeeded with their army influence in keeping the Crimae from the poles and ukranians.
What the poles wanted was an access to the sea, that's why Ukraine has mandatory Mariupol.. (and so cut the road), but..:
nationalists here use indirectly the makhnovist threat as a ukraine added tool against whites: petliurists have no influence here, but they may ally with makhnovists against Whites here (makhnovists, having a great reserve of fighters but not many weapons and almost no bullets could be indirectly aided by poland: weapons and ammo.., however it is a delicate matter for the fear of makhnovists opportunity to help the reds, again.., against nationalists once the russian Whites are no longer a threat).
So, the Mariupol region is rather theorically, on the paper for Kiev, a part of Ukraine state, but it is sufficient to block the region (letting time to Kiev to try growing its influence here in the future).
( Even today, the Ukraine state keep a waterdowned memory of makhnovism, making Makhno a christian saint for the police!, as a tool against moscovit invasion. http://www.alter.most.org.pl/fa/alter-ee/ee49.html )

[Respenus]

Thank you for the history lesson guys, much appreciated. I must admit, the Russian Civil War is not a period of time I am most familiar with (although I did know about the Intermarium and was excited to see it modelled in-game in case of Polish victory).

[ERISS]

That's a translated map [but they made an error in translating: the one western troop at Uman in the west was petliurist, there were not all denikinists troops (the four orthogonals are okay)]:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/p-a-jpeg-1.jpeg
The darkest area is very dangerous for the Whites (and for Cheka..) as soon people have some weapons (and ammo..) here...

[ERISS]

:mdr o you know what is an international border ?

The wiki says only France as western power wanted this Pole dream. To have the strongest allies next to Germany (Russia is even farther).
So I imagine France may divert its White help to Poland instead, if Poland had proved being so strong and succesfull. France leaving Odessa and go to help protect Mariupol from the Reds, and Whites. So french soldiers here has to share some weapons and help makhnovists paesant to work the land, if they want being tolerated. Oh, that's why Whites could no longer leave Krimae, French navy gone..

[ERISS]

About this what-if, what said the designer of Tatchanka (boardgame):

The French forces withdraw from Odesa in April 1919. The Polish intervention, in favor of Petlyura, didn't occur until April 1920.
The Polish intervention forces could be treated as unreliable allies of the Separatist side.

[AleksandrStefan]

@ Arsan

I was surprised, however, not to see an element found in a RUS mod, which added "corruption" as something the Western Whites need to constantly fight against. This made it even more difficult to push against the Reds who historically had the support of the general population.

In RUS Gold, railroad 3% loss each turn is the only real corruption you should fight against, but after some point, its impossible. I have tried many, many ways and in many opportunities to find the exact RUS Gold file where the 3% railroad capacity lost is written. Is that, or either a solution to why when the game goes post-mortem(and even before post-mortem) there is no longer a railroad increase capacity. I know, I cant be "bitching" about this right in the post of another member, but seriously, am I the only one who is really bothered becouse of this?

I have even tried Revolution Under Siege(non-gold) version 1.00 and since then, this sort of "intended bug"(as I like to see) is working...

Sorry again for changing the main discussion into something else, even after I got some temporal solutions as adding a colosal number of money, trains, recruits and WS after a certain event.

But my last theory suggests that, if I am able to find the file where War Production decisions are, then I can modify the railroad one to make it appear regularly even after post-mortem, becouse of adding the same probability system that the decision of getting more money has.