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aryaman
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:17 pm

Cat Lord wrote:"Feeding Mars" is a collective work, so with it goes the pros and cons about such books. I find it a bit tiresome that the central theme of the editor (i.e. John Lynn, the guys who put all these papers together) is a criticism of Creveld. True, Creveld books was biaised towards its central theme (that supply problems have been underestimated for years in the analysis of the success or failures of the most famous campaign) and contains several shortcuts in the argument (or the numbers) which have been explored since. But still, it is a much stronger reading than "Feeding Mars".


Yes, as you pointed out, the central theme of the editor is a criticism of Creveld, but that criticism is very well founded, because it is precisely focused in the period in which Lynn is an specialist and Creveld is rather lacking. Creveld argued for the continuity of methods of supply, that armies from 1625 to 1914 still relied basically on living off the country and that only siege warfare required magazines and convoys. Instead, Lynn argues for the development in Louis XIV period for a system based on supply lines that linked armies to depots, and his arguments are very strong, thanks to a much deeper knowledge of that period than Creveld.

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Cat Lord
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:40 pm

aryaman wrote:Instead, Lynn argues for the development in Louis XIV period for a system based on supply lines that linked armies to depots, and his arguments are very strong, thanks to a much deeper knowledge of that period than Creveld.
OTOH, if I remember Lynn's book properly (the one on Louis XIV wars), he himself contradict this argument by pointing out that depots were only useful to start the war earlier than your opponents, and that after a few weeks, it becomes business as usual, and the armies had to live off the country.

As the Louis XIV wars were not wars of movement, positionning, march and counter-march but rather a grand affair of sieges and fortifications line, it was not even that useful in the end, hence why the front stayed so statics over years and years and years.

Let's face it, the only practical supply way before the railroads were rivers. Armies along rivers could be (limitedly) supplied, siege trains could be transported, and foraging could be extended further than the immediate vicinity of the army.

But as soon as you were not in range of a river anymore, supply transportation was not an option, and fodder was always the biggest problem anyway (being too bulky to be transported), so armies had to live "off the land", and staying too long in the same area meant having all your horses starving.

Napoleon did face the same challenges as Louis the XIV and the only difference which allows him to field much greater armies than the Sun King is that the road network in Europe had multiplied greatly over a century, and he made clever use of it by dividing his Armies in Corps (his real innovation).

Each Corps would travel alongside different routes so that forraging would be made easier than for larger, bulkier army, but at the same time, Corps were strong enough and self-sufficient (containing both Cavalry, Artillery and Infantry) to be able to held their ground in case of encounter with an enemy formation, long enough for other Corps nearby to come to the rescue.

But that's about the only difference. So I am with Creveld here: Supply lines going all the way back to France to supply the Grande Armée during the Russian Campaign ? No way. The Russians never cut these non-existent lines in the back of the French anyway, so had they existed, Napoleon wouldn't have been in trouble. But they didn't, and the Russians burned everything to the ground in front of the French as they progressed, and thus, they were doomed to fail. No need to read Lynn or Creveld here, War and Peace is sufficient. ;)

Cat

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Cat Lord
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:57 pm

Pour Pocus (et les francophones intéressés par ce débat sur le ravitaillement des armées Napoléoniennes, et la différence entre la guerre sous Napy et celle sous Louis XIV), nous avons une une longue et excellente discussion sur ce sujet dans le forum Histoire sur Paradox:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152568

Vraiment passionant.

Au début, ca ne parle que de Louis XIV, mais Napoléon arrive en milieu de discussion. :D

Ma fiche de lecture sur l'ouvrage de Lynn est ici, si vous voulez vous epargner le début de l'enfilade (pas des plus intéressants):

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3434701#post=3434701 :)

Cat

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Florent
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:08 pm

I think the corps were invented during the revolution, Napoleon used them with perfection. Perhaps Carnot who organised the french armies.

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Cat Lord
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:10 pm

Florent wrote:I think the corps were invented during the revolution, Napoleon used them with perfection. Perhaps Carnot who organised the french armies.
That's entirely possible. :gardavou:

Cat

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aryaman
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:33 pm

Cat Lord wrote:But that's about the only difference. So I am with Creveld here: Supply lines going all the way back to France to supply the Grande Armée during the Russian Campaign ? No way. The Russians never cut these non-existent lines in the back of the French anyway, so had they existed, Napoleon wouldn't have been in trouble. But they didn't, and the Russians burned everything to the ground in front of the French as they progressed, and thus, they were doomed to fail. No need to read Lynn or Creveld here, War and Peace is sufficient. ;)

Cat

That is entirely misleading, you seem not to understand what was a supply line, supply lines didn´t go back to France, just to the head depot the army was using. Napoleon did stablish depots along his route of advance, and the Russinas did cut him off, War and Peace is excellent reading, but not as military history.
It is true that green fodder had to be collected off the land, that is why campaigning in winter was so difficult, but bread had to be supplied from the rear, that is what allowed the expand in size of the field armies. The Corps system didn´t solve the problem, it could be used in a limited way in countries with large poipulations and resources, together with river lines, like Germany, Belgium or North Italy, but outside those territories the only way to keep armies supplied was to build large depots and to supply armies from them, or to go back to the 30 Years War warfare, breaking down armies in smaller units and sending them to forage and plunder around.

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Cat Lord
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Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:28 pm

I perfectly understand the concept of supply lines, but it is not much more relevant for Napoleon than it was for Louis XIV. Most of the time, Napoleon didn't do anything better than Louvois under Louis XIV: He made biscuits to be baked in advance of the war to provide food for the first few weeks of the conflict (assembled in depot not too far away from the borders, yes) but as soon as its armies were deep into enemy territory, they had to live off the country.

What he did better is that he fully organised foraging party under special officers, rather than letting the armies improvise by themselves, which was much more efficient, and he uses Corps size units on numerous roads so that they foraged different areas, again in a much more efficient way. Napoleon apparently said once "une armée de 20000 hommes peut subsister même dans un désert", i.e. 20,000 men can live even in a desert. That's a good summary of his logistics philosophy: lighter units, quicker to move (the width of the roads was a major factor in the speed armies could achieve and very large army were very very slow just because of that), better able to provide for themselves, strong enough so that they could withstand an encounter with the enemy. The success of his campaigns was about dispersion on the way(s) to an objective, and concentration at the point of the battle.

What he also did better is that for numerous years, he did win his wars :D , so as soon as the enemy was defeated, it had, as part of the peace deal, to provide the winners with supply on their way back.

The Russian campaign is the only one for which a proper train system was tentatively assembled so that feeding the army from the rear would last slightly longer than in previous campaigns (because of the very poor territories to cross to reach the richer Russian parts), but it did cease to function adequatly after a few weeks, as could be and was expected (because horses and carts are only efficient a certain distance until the system becomes too stretch and too heavy on its own right to work. It's always the same problem: Past a certain distance the consumption to cross that distance becomes too much compare with the load that you can actually transport to the next relay; and with horses and carts, this is actually a short distance). By this time Napoleon had reach the richer parts of Russia, but he failed to catch up with the Russian army and defeat it in a decisive battle. He then stays too long at the same place within a country which had been foraged already all around and winter finds its army in much wanting.

"Une armée de 20000 hommes peut subsister même dans un désert" ? Well, maybe, but not for too long.

Cat

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aryaman
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:02 am

Cat Lord wrote:I perfectly understand the concept of supply lines, but it is not much more relevant for Napoleon than it was for Louis XIV. Most of the time, Napoleon didn't do anything better than Louvois under Louis XIV: He made biscuits to be baked in advance of the war to provide food for the first few weeks of the conflict (assembled in depot not too far away from the borders, yes) but as soon as its armies were deep into enemy territory, they had to live off the country.



As I said, that only worked for some parts of Europe, it didn´t work not only in Russia, but before that in Poland and Spain, for instance in the initial stages of the Polish campaign Napoleon used Thorn as his main depot, Davout was ordered to take Warsaw in order to build another huge depot for the army there, while in 1807 the siege of Danzig was basically motivated by the need to secure the supply lines in the north once the theater of operations has moved and for that reason Napoleon didn´t start his offensive until Danzig was secured.
As for the Russian campaign, it was not the first time army trains were organized, it was a regular feature of the war in Spain, it was the size of the train that was impressive, and the size of the miscalculations that brought the army to a supply catastrophe, long before the Russian winter.

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aryaman
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:07 am

In gameplay terms, if we were to follow van Creveld the supply system implemented in AACW should be erased, while CSA raiders could easily go all the way to Canada without suffering supply shortages

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Adlertag
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:49 pm

aryaman wrote:As for the Russian campaign, it was not the first time army trains were organized, it was a regular feature of the war in Spain, it was the size of the train that was impressive, and the size of the miscalculations that brought the army to a supply catastrophe, long before the Russian winter.


Army train ( Train des équipages militaires, TEM) was created in March 1807 (26th) after Napoleon noticed the failure of Compagnies BREIDT, RAVET or LANCHERE and followed by the Guard train in 1811.
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jimwinsor
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:13 pm

How long will turns be, I wonder? 2 weeks as per AACW, or 1 month as per BoA? Or something entirely different?

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Sol Invictus
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:37 pm

Philippe said that turns will be weekly and units will be Regimental.
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jimwinsor
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:45 pm

Weekly? Wow...for a war that went on for 22 years (if you consider 1792 as the start date)...a full campaign is gonna be a LOT of turns!

Even just limiting to the "Napoleonic" wars, 1805 to 1815, thats 10 years times 52 = 520 turns! :cuit:

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arsan
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:57 pm

I don´t think there is going to be a "Full campaign"...
And most individual campaigns were not too long...
Maybe the peninsular campaign is the longest (1808-1813??) but with few units and a limited map area, turns can be played faster than on AACW.
Just guessing, anyway.. :bonk:
Cheers!

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Adlertag
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:26 pm

No Grand Campaign is scheduled, its not the purpose of the game.
The longest scenario will be the Peninsular War , July 1807 to April 1814 , things are to be discussed a bit more, especially for weekly turns in this case.
Level is regimental with named divisionnal leaders, currently nothing but nearly 500 French leaders...
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Florent
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:35 pm

If there are a 1812,1813 and 1814 campaigns, do you intend to do a grand campaign 1812-1814 or 1813-1814 so that you can follow on the results of a particular campaign.

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Adlertag
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:55 pm

Consensus is currently not completely achieved about precise date and duration of scénarios but, yes, links between campaigns are considered.
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Lasse
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:43 pm

What would be cool was if they took the approach of Panzer General (the first) were you could move from one campaign to the next (having limitet choices f.x. going against britain befor russia) thus making it sorta a grand campaign. just a thought...

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runyan99
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Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:02 pm

A set of unconnected wargame scenarios covering the major campaigns of the Napoleonic era is fine with me.

I don't really need a political simulator or a linked campaign to play against the AI.

dinsdale
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Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:21 am

PhilThib wrote:Warning !!
There will be some description of the game's content in the coming weeks ...that the game covers "Campaigns"....it will handle each 'war' in a separate way, à la BOA, with almost no diplomacy except by events...


Sounds superb to me. I'd rather play a great recreation of the wars than have the additional pitfal of a diplomacy engine which would be hard pressed to mimic what went on during the era.

I loved Steve Zucker's games (though only solo) and I've been waiting for a decent operational Napoleonic since getting a PC. You've nailed the feel of pre and post Napleonic combat, I'm hoping you can do the same with Napoleonic. A difficult challenge, capturing the supply problems in Spain, and the chaos of the march into Russia in the same game which can reproduce the uncertainty and opportunity of the central Europe campaigns won't be easy.

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Florent
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Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:06 am

I think you mean Kevin Zucker 's operational games (AH,CoA and now OSG).

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Sol Invictus
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Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:31 pm

Dinsdale, I agree. I look at each campaign as a distinct war, and would actually prefer to fight them as such. Once you throw in a diplomatic model and try to depict the entire era, we will probably see all kinds of weirdness and the result will be that most games won't play out anything like the Napoleonic Wars. I know if I was playing a game and England ended up allying to France, I would have to immediately quit the game.

Now when AGEOD does get around to modelling diplomacy in VoN and with the Napoleonic engine, I don't expect such stupidity, but it will take time to design and test a sensible system that depicts what was reasonably plausable for the period. Until then, I am sure that I will gleefully dive into each of the campaigns with agressive abandon. :dada:
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dinsdale
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Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:55 pm

Florent wrote:I think you mean Kevin Zucker 's operational games (AH,CoA and now OSG).



:bonk: Yes, Kevin not Steve.

Great games, something BOA's activated/inactive mechanism reminded me of. Struggle of Nations supply/dispatch/admin point rules truly made them great at capturing the feel of a period campaign.

I prefferred that one to Napoleon At Bay and the Waterloo campaign, having the two-hex sized counters with different modes and facings was terrific.

-------------------

Sol Invictus wrote:...we will probably see all kinds of weirdness and the result will be that most games won't play out anything like the Napoleonic Wars.


Very true. Even the finest diplomatic model would find it hard to recreate a plausible alternative. Not to mention, the longer the game time, the more likely it is that the player already has an unassailable lead against the AI.

jimwinsor
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Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:24 pm

Adlertag wrote:No Grand Campaign is scheduled, its not the purpose of the game.
The longest scenario will be the Peninsular War , July 1807 to April 1814 , things are to be discussed a bit more, especially for weekly turns in this case.
Level is regimental with named divisionnal leaders, currently nothing but nearly 500 French leaders...


Regimental, as in, the elements will be regiments? Or will the units be regiments (hence, the elements battalions/companies)?

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Sol Invictus
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Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:44 pm

It was my understanding that the units would represent Regiments. Not sure about the elements.
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Adlertag
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Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:26 am

To be clear (I expect) , elements ( SU , sub-units) will be either regiments or battalions, both are possible.
Units will be in the majority of the cases divisions with a specific named leader or brigades , but you will find also some regiments like cavalry ones.
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Beren
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Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:03 am

can you post again the map image? it was superb, i need to see it! :)

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aryaman
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Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:27 pm

Adlertag wrote:Army train ( Train des équipages militaires, TEM) was created in March 1807 (26th) after Napoleon noticed the failure of Compagnies BREIDT, RAVET or LANCHERE and followed by the Guard train in 1811.


True, and it was contnually expanded from 9 Bns up to 26.
Private contractors had proved inefficient, but that does not mean that French armies moved without a supply system, the advance of the army divided into Corps was designed not as a permanent system, but as an expedient to accomplish fast manouvers, for instance at Ulm every Corps had attached a supply train transporting 8 days rations (3.500 wagons were requised for that). Besides, and more important, the manouever force in the North (I, II, III and IV Corps) crossing Germany arrived to friendly Bavaria in 13 days, from that moment Napoleon established his Center of Operations at Augsburg, and from that moment the French forces were supplied from the Augusburg huge magazines.

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Adlertag
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Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:24 pm

aryaman wrote:True, and it was contnually expanded from 9 Bns up to 26.
Private contractors had proved inefficient, but that does not mean that French armies moved without a supply system, the advance of the army divided into Corps was designed not as a permanent system, but as an expedient to accomplish fast manouvers, for instance at Ulm every Corps had attached a supply train transporting 8 days rations (3.500 wagons were requised for that). Besides, and more important, the manouever force in the North (I, II, III and IV Corps) crossing Germany arrived to friendly Bavaria in 13 days, from that moment Napoleon established his Center of Operations at Augsburg, and from that moment the French forces were supplied from the Augusburg huge magazines.


Exactly 8 Bns ( March 26 1807) to 24 ( 1813 , date of nomination Général Baron Picard as Inspector of Army Train).
And if private contractors had proved inefficient it's not because they were inherently inefficient but rather because their goals were contrary to those of Napoleon : For Breidt the more time it takes to carry supply, the more profitable it is. For Napoleon it is exactly the reverse.
La mort est un mur, mourir est une brèche.

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aryaman
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Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:51 pm

Chandler in "The campaigns of Napoleon" says 26, maybe 2 were lost by 1813

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