Gray Fox wrote:When Napoleon was confronted by a British garrison dug in with artillery during the revolution, he knew that an advancing column of closely packed French troops would get slaughtered by the grape-shot. So he simply told the men to fall down on his command and let the shot pass, then charge for a few seconds while the British reloaded and fall again. It worked. The British were forced to evacuate and Napoleon went on to do some other amazing things. Of course, the very idea that American troops would fall on their bellies in front of the enemy is ridiculous. Stand up and take the grape-shot like a man!
Officers who were academy trained in the profession of arms failed the Union. Massed artillery wasn't a military secret. Competent leaders knew of this successful, proven tactic for over half a century. They preferred the magic of a bayonet charge into a hail of shrapnel. I don't.
Gray Fox wrote:Officers who were academy trained in the profession of arms failed the Union. Massed artillery wasn't a military secret. Competent leaders knew of this successful, proven tactic for over half a century. Incompetent leaders preferred the magic of a bayonet charge into a hail of shrapnel. I don't.
RickInVA wrote:But the real generals did feel the way you indicated.
Gray Fox wrote:When Napoleon was confronted by a British garrison dug in with artillery during the revolution, he knew that an advancing column of closely packed French troops would get slaughtered by the grape-shot. So he simply told the men to fall down on his command and let the shot pass, then charge for a few seconds while the British reloaded and fall again. It worked. The British were forced to evacuate and Napoleon went on to do some other amazing things. Of course, the very idea that American troops would fall on their bellies in front of the enemy is ridiculous. Stand up and take the grape-shot like a man!
Officers who were academy trained in the profession of arms failed the Union. Massed artillery wasn't a military secret. Competent leaders knew of this successful, proven tactic for over half a century. Incompetent leaders preferred the magic of a bayonet charge into a hail of shrapnel. I don't.
khbynum wrote:Lee did not have an army level artillery reserve at that point. Pendleton was technically in command of the army artillery, but was in fact an administrator who exercised no field command. The leaders you name commanded the artillery of the separate corps. You can call them divisions, but they really amounted to about 8 batteries each, or 4 elements in game terms. I posted about this earlier in the thread. Civil War field artillery did not use grapeshot. It fired (at least on the Confederate side, by historical account) everything from broken chains to horseshoes to rocks to short lengths of railroad iron, but not grapeshot. That was a naval munition.
Gray Fox wrote:In one of the CSPAN episodes about the CW, a battle is described like that. A Union commander had his sharpshooters pepper the Confederate fieldworks with accurate fire forcing the defenders to stay down. His men double-timed over an open field without stopping to fire themselves. They took the position with only a few casualties.
Some people have a HR where any Union Division used in an amphibious assault must be all Marines and Sailors. Some others use Divisions and even Corps of cavalry. The game doesn't have the correct NATO icon for an artillery Division, so maybe this wasn't ever brought up by any of the playtesters. I still think that it is as valid as a Marine Division or Cavalry Corps. When pgr suggested the idea, I gave it a shot and it works for me.
khbynum wrote:Lee did not have an army level artillery reserve at that point. Pendleton was technically in command of the army artillery, but was in fact an administrator who exercised no field command. The leaders you name commanded the artillery of the separate corps. You can call them divisions, but they really amounted to about 8 batteries each, or 4 elements in game terms. I posted about this earlier in the thread. Civil War field artillery did not use grapeshot. It fired (at least on the Confederate side, by historical account) everything from broken chains to horseshoes to rocks to short lengths of railroad iron, but not grapeshot. That was a naval munition.
Congoblue wrote:This manoeuvre by Napoleon rang a bell with me so I've been scouring some books and eventually found a similar movement against emplaced artillery during the Battle of Champion's Hill in 1863. A Brigadier (possibly McGinnis) of Hovey's 12th Division, Army of the Tennessee, did the same when assaulting some Confederate guns early in the battle. Evidently they didn't fancy the grapeshot all that much either!
Also, while digging, I found Grant's OOB for the Army on the Rapidan in 1864, at the start of the Wilderness Campaign, where he has Brig-General Hunt in command of the Union Artillery Reserve, which comprised five brigades in a single unit. Interestingly Grant also describes the CSA formation - Lee had his Artillery Reserve under Pendleton, but it comprised three whole divisions of artillery, under Alexander, Long and Walker. So it looks like, late in the war at least, artillery formations aren't anachronistic at all.
Congoblue wrote:I take your point about grapeshot - I was being slightly flippant and had Napoleon's 'whiff of grapeshot' in mind. What I really meant was that a good field commander would readily order his men to fall to their bellies if it saved their lives.
As for the artillery commanders, I'll bow to your knowledge as to their roles. I got the OOB from Grant's Memoirs, but it does seem that he looked at artillery in a 'reserve' or support capacity, led by specific leaders. Perhaps, and I think this might have already been mentioned, artillery-only formations should be restricted in the number of elements they can contain?
charlesonmission wrote:Currently reading Nevins War for the Union http://www.amazon.com/Union-Volume-Becomes-Revolution-1862-1863/dp/1568522975
marquo wrote:In the spirit of discussion, and nothing more, why would one do this in a Civil War simulation? Even though the game allows this, this is like fast forward to the Eastern Front in 1943 with the advent of Soviet Artillery Breakthough divisions.
Cheers
Gray Fox wrote:I tailor a Division to what I want to do with it.
If I just want a Division to garrison a city or region, then I give it a core of a sharpshooter for initiative bonus, a cavalry element for the recon ability (land detect value), maybe a 6-lber that will be more effective because the unit is entrenched and the rest militia. It's basically fly-paper. Brigade-wise, that's the one with a conscript, a line infantry, a cavalry element and a 6-lber, a lone sharpshooter element and 12 militia.
For an elite Division, I use the brigade that has two line infantry and a sharpshooter, a single early cavalry for the best detect value and a conscript cavalry for extra horsepower in pursuit/screening during combat, one Marine element for river crossing bonus and the rest militia that have been upgraded to line infantry by McClellan/Halleck/Sigel. Depending on what elements a cohesion boosting brigade has, I delete what isn't needed twice and add the bonus brigade for an elite Division. I also continue to follow the same OOB when I have used all of the bonus brigades. You can substitute sailor elements for Marines. Several of these Divisions in a stack have enough cavalry that I don't need an extra cavalry Division. I do make small 4 element cavalry brigades out of a General with a Division command to scout and hunt raiders stack.
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