How to defend from Indian Raid RGD?

[Emx77]

Here is the situation:

I'm playing as Union and have two pretty strong divisions in El Paso (at least strong for Far West theater standards ). In late march 1863 El Paso is loyal to Union and it has size 2 depot. I've just ordered construction of another depot level. But, things will go wrong from here. Pay attention to CSA Indian unit just across Rio Grande. At this moment my opponent decided to play Indian raid RGD.

Fig. 1 - Late march, 1863


As the consequence of Indian raid, on the following turn, depot is reduced to level 1. Please notice animated icon which symbolize new depot is under construction. At this moment, I ordered one division from El Paso to attack Indians. But, before my division started (unsuccessfully) to hunt Indians, CSA played same Indian RGD once more....

Fig. 2 - Early April, 1863


...which completely destroyed depot (existing and also one under construction).

Fig. 3 - Late April, 1863


Questions:

1. How is it possible that my opponent's last RGD destroyed existing and also depot under construction?
2. What could I do to prevent Indian Raid? I had two divisions guarding province. Exactly how many elements is needed to defend depot against Indian raid RGD? Did I make mistake by not putting at least one unit inside El Paso? Would that help?

[DrPostman]

I thought that the more troops you had there the less of a chance
the RGD would work. Hope you get a good answer because I'm
curious too.

[Captain_Orso]

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1. How is it possible that my opponent's last RGD destroyed existing and also depot under construction?

The first RGD destroyed your level 2 depot. Since you used either the Build Depot SO or the Build Depot RGD to increase the depot level and you are lucky that this took place after the original depot was destroyed, you incidentally got a new level 1 depot with the status 'under construction'.

The next turn he played the Indian Raid RGD again and destroyed the new depot too.

2. What could I do to prevent Indian Raid?

To play the Indian Raid RGD the Indian unit must be in the target or an adjacent region. Prevent that from happening.

I had two divisions guarding province. Exactly how many elements is needed to defend depot against Indian raid RGD?

To be 100% protected you would need 100 elements in the target region. This is the event run after the RGD is successfully played:

Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptIndiansRaid|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;Enemy
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  RemoveStructure = ByKind $StuDepot;ALL;ANYFAC

EndEvent

The 'EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT' means that a 100 sided die is rolled and the results is compared to the number of enemy --to the Indian unit-- SubUnits (elements) in the region. If the die roll is higher that SU's the statement evaluates as 'true' and processing continues to the next statement where 'EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT' occurs again. If the second check is also successful, the depot will be destroyed.

Did I make mistake by not putting at least one unit inside El Paso? Would that help?

No, the number of elements in the region is counted. Where in the region they are makes no difference.

I thought that the more troops you had there the less of a chance
the RGD would work. Hope you get a good answer because I'm
curious too.

Yes, as I stated above, the more elements you have in a region, the less likely that the Indian Raid will succeed.

[Emx77]

The first RGD destroyed your level 2 depot. Since you used either the Build Depot SO or the Build Depot RGD to increase the depot level and you are lucky that this took place after the original depot was destroyed, you incidentally got a new level 1 depot with the status 'under construction'.

The next turn he played the Indian Raid RGD again and destroyed the new depot too.

Hmm, it seems I'm missing something here. First, on turn 1 I used supply unit (wagons) to increase depot size from 2 (already in El Paso) to size 3. Second, my opponent played first RGD on turn 1, reducing depot to size 1 (level 2 size - one depot level per RGD). On turn 2 there is size 1 depot and another depot level under construction. He played RGD again. At the beginning of turn 3 there should still be at least size 1 depot (existing size 1 depot - one depot per RGD played on turn 2 + one depot after construction is over = 1-1+1 = 1). As it is now, he played two Indian raids but removed three depot levels (two already existing depot levels plus one which was under construction). How?

[Captain_Orso]

No, sorry, but that is wrong.

First of there is no I did this first and then he did that within a turn. Orders are issued by all faction's before the actual turn execution is started. Once the actual turn execution has started, orders are worked through in the order the game is coded to work through them.

In this case the Indian Raid RGD takes place before the Build Depot SO. The Indian Raid RGD does not reduce the target depot by 1 level, it removes it:

Code: Select all

RemoveStructure = ByKind $StuDepot;ALL;ANYFAC

Therefore:
1st Turn Orders Issued (occurs for all factions before turn execution takes place[SUP]1)[/SUP]):
USA: Build Depot SO played in El Paso.
CSA: Indian Raid RGD played against El Paso.

1st Turn Execution:
-- Indian Raid RGD played against El Paso is evaluated and succeeds; the level 2 depot in El Paso is removed.
-- Build Depot SO played in El Paso is executed; a level 1 depot is created in El Paso with the status 'Under contruction'.

3rd Turn:
CSA: Indian Raid RGD played against El Paso.

3rd Turn Execution:
-- Indian Raid RGD played against El Paso is evaluated and succeeds; the level 1 depot in El Paso is removed.


[SUP]1)[/SUP] In reality, only after the player has clicks the 'Proceed to next turn' button does the game generate orders for factions not controlled by a human player.

[Gray Fox]

I don't want to put words in Emx77's post, but like him I understood that the RGD destroyed one level of a depot, not the whole level 2 depot. So a level 2 becomes a level 1 after the first RGD. It then gets removed after the next RGD. The depot under construction would still give him a level 1 depot.

[Emx77]

I don't want to put words in Emx77's post, but like him I understood that the RGD destroyed one level of a depot, not the whole level 2 depot. So a level 2 becomes a level 1 after the first RGD. It then gets removed after the next RGD. The depot under construction would still give him a level 1 depot.

Gray Fox, exactly that.

Captain_Orso, I understand WEGO nature of game mechanic. I think this is confusing part:

The Indian Raid RGD does not reduce the target depot by 1 level, it removes it

But in patch 1.05 RC9 notes there are following lines:

- Decisions and partisans can remove only one depot level per try.
- RC9: All Depots size can now be razed. Partisans’ decisions still raze only one depot level at a time.

Possible explanations: a) Indian Raid RGD is different from other "Decisions and partisans" or b) Indian Raid RGD is not working as designed in RC9.

One more thing. I had 23 elements (without commanders) in El Paso region. If I understand correctly explanation about RGDScriptIndiansRaid Conditions, probability for success of Indian Raid RGD was:

77/100 * 77/100 = 0.59 (59%)

Is this right? If so, that RGD seems a bit overpowered. Even if you have two full divisions in region with depot (36 elements) there is still 41% chance your depot will be razed.

[Captain_Orso]

The script command 'RemoveStructure' does exactly that, it removes a structure. It does not reduce the level of a structure.

[Cardinal Ape]

Wow. I knew that you needed a good amount of troops to defend a depot against an RGD raid, but holy cow, 1% per element! Considering that a failed attempt doesn't lose the card it is even worse.

[Ubercat]

It sounds like trying to have depots in the Far West is a lost cause. How can you get a big enough army out there to sufficiently protect them?

[Captain_Orso]

Wow. I knew that you needed a good amount of troops to defend a depot against an RGD raid, but holy cow, 1% per element! Considering that a failed attempt doesn't lose the card it is even worse.

It sounds like trying to have depots in the Far West is a lost cause. How can you get a big enough army out there to sufficiently protect them?

I have suggested elsewhere that these RGD's be re-tweaked, but nobody wanted to voice an opinion. I will make the suggestion again:

[INDENT]If people are unsatisfied with the way Indian and Partisan Raid RGD's work please make a note of that here and I will open a separate thread in which I outline the current situation, some of the possibilities and we can discuss their merits. I'm certain that Pocus would be glad to listen to a well laid out suggestion: Win/Win[/INDENT]

[Pocus]

Are you sure that the RGD remains available if the check is failed, this would imbalance the RGD indeed.

[tripax]

I have suggested elsewhere that these RGD's be re-tweaked, but nobody wanted to voice an opinion...

I remember this being discussed here (thread: Fyi rc9). At that thread I mostly agreed, I think Durk and GF did too, but then the path of the discussion shifted a bit. I'm sure it was discussed elsewhere as well.

[Captain_Orso]

Are you sure that the RGD remains available if the check is failed, this would imbalance the RGD indeed.

I don't think this has even been looked into as of yet.

Looking at the RGD's Indian and Partisan Raid I see that both have:

BaseSuccess = 50 and
Effect_RemoveFromFP = 1

I'm guessing that it means that there is a 50% chance that the playing of the RGD is successful before the script is run. I'm also guessing that if the playing of the RGD is successful then the RGD is removed from the game until replenished.

I'll have test it to be sure, unless you'd like to give me a tip as to what those two parameters mean in detail

[Captain_Orso]

I remember this being discussed here (thread: Fyi rc9). At that thread I mostly agreed, I think Durk and GF did too, but then the path of the discussion shifted a bit. I'm sure it was discussed elsewhere as well.

That's the thread I remember. If it were discussed elsewhere, the results were of the same nature.

[Gray Fox]

As far as I know, with partisans you can play it until it works.

[Pocus]

That's the problem, a failed RGD should anyway be removed, if failed. Or that defeats the purpose most of the time.

You can fail a RGD because it decays, because of enemy presence, because of failed success roll, because of failed script attached to it. In all cases it should be removed from FP.

[Gray Fox]

Then, I believe that the sea mine RGD can also be played until it works.

[Cardinal Ape]

Oh. I guess I should have mentioned it before. The behavior of cards not being used up on failed attempts seemed consistent so I figured it was intended to be that way.

Off hand I can not recall any cards that are removed upon failure. I've gotten in the habit of viewing the 3 raid and 4 sea mine cards as a guaranteed +7 NM.

The total removal of a depot on the Native raid is fairly harsh but it may be balanced by its restricted use on undeveloped regions which tend not to have big depots anyhow.

[Captain_Orso]

Are you sure that the RGD remains available if the check is failed, this would imbalance the RGD indeed.

That's the problem, a failed RGD should anyway be removed, if failed. Or that defeats the purpose most of the time.

You can fail a RGD because it decays, because of enemy presence, because of failed success roll, because of failed script attached to it. In all cases it should be removed from FP.

What I can say for sure now is that if the Partisan Raid RGD goes to the script and fails through one of the 'EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT' statements, it is returned to the player.

Since only the last log of the execution of the script survives the end of the turn I can't say if or when the RGD actually goes to the script or if it fails on the RGD chance condition, so I can't say exactly how that is working.