Very strange combat result with RC7

[Prussia]

Two battles in the Manassas area- one a clear victory for the South, and a particularly strange result for the second battle.

1st pic- pretty clear and simple:

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Second battle with results that make no sense- the South retains the field and the Union is the one going back home-

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I would love anyone's interpretation or rational for these second results. Thanks in advance.

[Captain_Orso]

After the first battle Butler's army is in retreat when the second battle occurred. As long as both forces are in the same region there is always a chance that a battle can occur, even if one battle has already been fought.

At some point during the second battle the battle engine decided that the overwhelming numerical advantage of Butler's army cause Beauregard to retreat.

[Pocus]

If Confederate morale was fragile, they may have routed or decided to retreat, despite the losses inflicted to the other side. This is in the end only a question of weighted probabilities. On the plus side, they inflicted losses. On the other side, the Union is much more numerous. We don't know how was CS cohesion, morale, number of failed morale checks, number of prisoners. So yes it is possible but not probable to have the CSA retreats here. If you had shown me a battle report with all parameters in the same direction (i.e more losses inflicted, more numerous) then yes, I would wonder if there is a bug. But here the number of Union soldiers might have saved the day, with the chancy roll of a dice. Say perhaps Union will to retreat was perhaps 80% and CSA retreat will was 5%. Now figure the dices. That's possible.

[Ebbingford]

He said though that the South retains the field. It is Butler who retreated.
That second battle is given as a Confederate defeat but looks like it was actually a victory for the South. They retain the field and inflicted lots more casualties than they suffered.
I think the question is why was it announced as a defeat for the South when everything points to it being a victory.

[Captain_Orso]

You are correct. The crux of the matter is the statement, "the South retains the field and the Union is the one going back home". If this means, Beauregard's army was not retreating--moving out of the region in PP--, but Butler's army was or had left the region by turn end, then I would consider the battle report to be in error, barring further information.

To know if an army is retreating when it has not yet left the region, one would have to load that sides turn results to actually see that the army is actually retreating.

A more exact description would also be helpful. "Retaining the field" could also mean that Beauregard had not yet left the region at the end of the turn.

[Pocus]

ah ok. Then I need to be more precise about this defeat & victory determination. Since some months, this is not as black and white as it was. The winner of a battle is the one accruing the most win points, which are calculated like this:

a) being the sole having units in the region in non-passive posture: +5
b) having routed: -5
c) more numerous than enemy: +1
d) for each NM lost because of loss: -1

tally that for each side.

[Rod Smart]

the supply units the CSA captured were empty, making the Confederate situation worse.




I dunno. That's weird.

[Prussia]

Need to provide more information when I reload game.

But essentially the North butted their head against a brick wall of level 4 entrechments and superior leadership and manpower (though not as much artillery as I would have liked, having sent a lot of the heavy stuff for fort busting in Florida)- lots of battles with Union having a profound numerical advantage and sometimes attacks of dribs and drabs of smaller units (a great representation of the difficulties in getting troops/leaders to what they are ordered to do- very well done Pocus!):

- The battles started with the Union having slipped past Manassas and the Army of the Potomac and essentially getting behind my positions - which on one hand left me scratching my head as to how they could have done that (but I live across the river in Maryland and am very familiar with the Northern Virginia area- plenty of room to have done that... frankly these areas are HUGE) and on the other hand- Ouch!!! I'm toast now;
- So I'm scrambling to reinforce Fredericksburg, Charlottesville, etc., not easily done, with only recuperating and/or new troop units available at that point; though I did have 2 units (Jones Brigade being one, the other 3rd Reserve which was vaporized) in Culpeper alternating in going after Union cavalry incursions, so I had at least that area somewhat locked down;
- His lines of supply would have been iffy but tenable since he held Leesburg (Loudoun county is not small either- I drive over there every two weeks), but I was able to retake Leesburg that turn cycle;
- While behind me it appears that he just stopped (ran out of gas? so to speak) and did nothing;
- I left Army of the Potomac in defensive mode- and I don't believe I either had the reserves or the ability to actually reinforce the AoP, or if I had, I'm sure they would have been smacked well and hard by the Union as what happened to the 3rd Reserve Brigade that was out chasing Union Cavalry in Culpeper;
- then the attacks started the next turn- several attacks with massive Union superiority, followed by progressively smaller and smaller attacks... unfortunately its a slight blur at this juncture, but all these battles occurred the turn 'before' the two battles depicted above;
- then this turn: his lines of supply severed or so I believe! It's winter as Pocus observed, but not snowing, blizzard or harsh in this region as opposed to pretty much the rest of the United States that month; Alexandria is essentially empty and it appears that he is heading back, with the route being through me, and the first battle depicted above I would wager broke his back. If you look at the unit counts of the elements that are displayed in the two pics you'll see that nothing had changed for the entire Army itself from day 1 to day 3 (e.g. Artillery for the entire army starting at 239 minus 33 losses resulting in 206 available for day 3), thus it appears by day 3 that the bulk of a badly beaten Army had indeed gotten past me back to Alexandria, but the logistical tail of the Army was straggling and ran head on into the Conferate force, resulting in this last battle depicted above;

- Salient points for Pocus:

a: the Army of the Potomac did not or was in retreat at any point;
b: the AoP was never in any move mode- max defense for the entire month;
c: "If Confederate morale was fragile, they may have routed or decided to retreat..."- I would disagree, as most units (see pic 1) hardly had any losses at all (most losses came from 3rd Reserve Brigae iirc), with Early's Brigade suffering aprox 25 percent losses, whereas most other units incurred little to no losses;
c2: Cohesion hits were definitely there, but nowhere comparable to what the fighting elements of the Union suffered- from what I can deduce the Union cohesion hits were massive;
d: Did not check after the battle for cohesion, morale or prisoners (believe it or not, iirc at this point of the war there are only Union prisoners... I will double check)- any way to get a tabular listing of these things displayed by button on the Combat results field? I was just happy to have survived the ordeal with only one loss;
e: "If you had shown me a battle report with all parameters in the same direction (i.e more losses inflicted, more numerous) then yes, I would wonder if there is a bug". How can I do that?
f: "So yes it is possible but not probable to have the CSA retreats here". Why? I held the field; inflicted essentially 3-1 losses; was in good supply in level 4 (4+?... is higher than level 4 actually depicted?) entrenchments; and the enemy is essentially routing home (any way to substantively 'state' that the enemy are in retreat vs. just leaving the field or area?);
g: "But here the number of Union soldiers might have saved the day, with the chancy roll of a dice". But most of the units were in disarray and going home from battles prior to day 1's battle depicted here- in essence yes! they had the numerical superiority in the region, but surely not combat worthy, and not in actual contact with AoP... and the last battle was the stragglers being poorly led into the cauldron... not attempting to imply or infer that anything needs to be changed- I love the way everything is depicted, just some clarification or more info displayed on the final combat panel- i.e. Union forces 'in this battle (only) retreated"...
h: "Say perhaps Union will to retreat was perhaps 80% and CSA retreat will was 5%. Now figure the dices. That's possible". Have no problem with that rational, but I don't know or have not been provided with any substantive information one way or the other. I do know that the AoP defeated (survived in some cases) the Union in 6 prior battles, and yes some units may have reappeared/re-engaged, at least I think so, in some of those later battles during that cycle (not like the Union has a shortage of units to send into the fray... I'm just happy to have survived) and during the final major battle depicted in pic 1. But I don't know if they are truly retreating or not- "I'm sorry Sir but the 37 horse's with messengers bearing the message of the Union's retreat tossed embolisms, and we were not able to inform you that what was left of 60,000 troops were heading back North". But in this last instance, I cleaned the Union's clock albeit however unfair, it was still a victory (see footnote regarding Iraqi Road of Death).

- per Rod: "the supply units the CSA captured were empty, making the Confederate situation worse". I don't know how to read the panel to see that; but in fact, of the 3 (4?) units 1 (2?) were damaged and all possessed supply. But was that a case of them being replenished upon commencement of the new Supply phase or did they come with supply upon capture? How to read the combat panel to see if they are empty (I know RTFM... mea culpa)? Iirc I captured 4 with 2 damaged though only 3 are listed on the info panel (maybe one came from a prior battle). Looking at the panel 12-12 for hits and 220-220 indicates empty? Is that how it's done? On the other hand I do 'now' have 4 additional supply carts- that in no way makes my situation worse, thats a bonus in my view.

Nonetheless, I'm having a blast, and enjoying this immensely- Thank you everyone.

[Prussia]

Just checked my manual, but did not find- a listing of the mouse-over icons on the combat results panel so I can print it out, thus having a better handle or better said, aid in remembering what they all mean. Which would, hopefully, allow me to better address Pocus' question re. morale checks, routing/routed, etc. Is there such a thing- I've checked my manual but so far no joy.

Thanks in advance.