Not retreating after losing a battle

[AndrewKurtz]

RC3.

Is there a reason armies do not retreat after losing a battle but, instead, stay in the same location?

Trying to get McDowell to return to Fairfax from Manassas. He lost a battle and stayed there. Now he has failed to return to Fairfax two turns in a row with ROE of defend/retreat, evade combat and orders to move to Fairfax.

Also, it seems that each turn McDowell changes his posture to Offensive, even through I set it to Defensive/Retreat. Any idea why?

[charlesonmission]

If you have 5% or less Military Control. I just talked about this in a turn, actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhXNB2TsyBQ

Forces don't always retreat because they may fail to retreat. Did you get the Union force failed to retreat... etc. near the battles messages.

Charles

[AndrewKurtz]

There are no messages about failed retreat in the message logs.

This has caused a loop that is unrealistic. McDowell moved into Manassas and lost, but failed to retreat. Now, every turn, for some reason (assuming MC), he again is automatically changed to "Offensive" and attacks, but again, doesn't retreat. Meanwhile, while sitting with force that, after cohesion, is at 400+, he has gained zero MC in the area. Do every turn he will keep turning on to "Offensive" again and attack until he is down to nothing.

Something seems very wrong. Can you name a situation in the Civil War where a non-sieged large army that attacked and lost a battle was unable to retreat and, instead, kept attacking over and over for months?

[PJL]

This isn't just a CW2 issue, but a general Ageod engine one. I'm seeing the same issues about MC not going above 0% for an invading force despite it being significant in size compared to the defender in TEAW as well. Certainly there should be some MC gained average a victory (I'd say at least 5% MC should be guaranteed).

[Gray Fox]

Take McDowell out of the stack your army is in. This should "unlock" the stack. Then move the army out of danger. You could put McDowell in charge of a single cavalry element in green/green and hope he retreats as well.

A while back I posted that with the old activation rule, you should have several commanders in any assault stack. That way, hopefully one of them would be active to command the stack so that critical actions could get accomplished. Real world commanders fire losers and find the right man for the job. No game mechanic makes the player inactive. However, history buffs like the veteran option because it adds some kind of poor leadership flavor.

[AndrewKurtz]

Gray...any explanation for why MC stays at zero, causing McDowell to keep attacking?

I am wondering if this lack of retreat after the initial battle is a result of TEAW changes. If no, it might be good for WW1, but not the Civil War.

[Gray Fox]

Here is the link from the previous game (AACW):
http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Military_control

If you have a large force and the enemy do as well, then any change your force would make to the MC is negated by the enemy.

[AndrewKurtz]

Here is the link from the previous game (AACW):
http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Military_control

If you have a large force and the enemy do as well, then any change your force would make to the MC is negated by the enemy.

Unfortunately, with the potential for a retreat failure that I believe was introduced with TEAW, this causes the exact loop I mentioned above:

1. Force moves in to attack, fails, but does not retreat
2. MC stays 0 (which I believe is should at least go to 5% since the army has to be somewhere)
3. When trying to move out of the region, because MC is 0, it automatically changes back to "offensive" which causes it to attack, fail, not retreat.
4. repeat over and over and over

[Captain_Orso]

It's not so much the MC, but the patrol and evasion values. Having low MC will prevent you from moving and retreating into a region where you also have low MC. Patrol and evasion can lock you down from moving out of a region.

I've had a small corps under Grant be locked down in Columbus, KY while trying to move into Hickman, TN by a brigade of Confederate cavalry that moved into Columbus, KY just as Grant was trying to move out and were so wily that they didn't even get into a battle. You can be sure that I was very surprised about that move .

BTW you can still retreat from a battle and not out if the region. You should get a message to this affect in the Mail Box.

[AndrewKurtz]

Captain Orso,

I am saying the MC of 0 seems to be causing the force to switch to "Offensive" posture and attack. I have the force in the region set to "Defensive...Retreat" and Evade Combat, and yet every turn there is a battle and my force is on offensive posture.

[Gray Fox]

As I re-read the AACW section on patrol and evasion, these factors along with the MC in the region you're in determine if your unit can bypass an enemy (evade their patrols) and enter another enemy rear area region. I didn't see anything about it preventing you from breaking contact and retreating to one of your high MC friendly regions. The AI may randomly pick a path of retreat after you're switched to offensive combat and if that path is not to the one friendly region, then you are stuck. So in real world terms, the enemy would be blocking your retreat.

[Captain_Orso]

Yes, this is correct. If a stack not in Passive Posture has =<5% MC in a region it will automatically go to Offensive Posture.

[Captain_Orso]

As I re-read the AACW section on patrol and evasion, these factors along with the MC in the region you're in determine if your unit can bypass an enemy (evade their patrols) and enter another enemy rear area region. I didn't see anything about it preventing you from breaking contact and retreating to one of your high MC friendly regions. The AI may randomly pick a path of retreat after you're switched to offensive combat and if that path is not to the one friendly region, then you are stuck. So in real world terms, the enemy would be blocking your retreat.

It doesn't matter what you call front and rear. It all has to do with the MC in the region where your stack is starting and the region into which you want to move. It is just far more likely, although not impossible, that if your are moving in the directions of your side of the map, you will be moving into higher MC regions.

The game doesn't have a concept of 'passing' enemy stacks, nor of 'breaking contact' other than with regards to the region in which the stack starts and the region into which it is plotted to move.

If patrol is high enough that you need more than 100% MC to enter a region in which you have 100% MC, you will not be able to move your stack into that region an thus will be locked in the region in which the stack is currently.

* I was definitely unclear in my first post.

[AndrewKurtz]

Yes, this is correct. If a stack not in Passive Posture has =<5% MC in a region it will automatically go to Offensive Posture.

So the way to withdraw is to put yourself in passive and hope they do not attack.

[Rod Smart]

Anecdotal and not intended to be an answer:


Playing as Union against Athena in mid-62. End run on Richmond and have it under siege.
McDowell fights Lee, and gets defeated despite inflicting twice as many casualties. Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege
Next turn, McDowell fights Lee, and gets defeated despite inflicting twice as many casualties. Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege.
Next turn, McDowell attacks the besieged force, gets defeated, and takes massive casualties (5:1, plus lost some generals). Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege.
Two turns later, McDowell fights Lee, and gets defeated despite inflicting twice as many casualties. Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege.

[AndrewKurtz]

Anecdotal and not intended to be an answer:


Playing as Union against Athena in mid-62. End run on Richmond and have it under siege.
McDowell fights Lee, and gets defeated despite inflicting twice as many casualties. Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege
Next turn, McDowell fights Lee, and gets defeated despite inflicting twice as many casualties. Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege.
Next turn, McDowell attacks the besieged force, gets defeated, and takes massive casualties (5:1, plus lost some generals). Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege.
Two turns later, McDowell fights Lee, and gets defeated despite inflicting twice as many casualties. Does not retreat and Richmond continues to be under siege.

That mirrors what I am seeing. Something is not working correctly. My gut is that there are two issues:

1. Something changed regarding retreat after battles that is leaving units in a region and not retreating from the region after a loss
2. The fact that a military force is in a region but never has any military control causes it to constantly change to offensive. (personally, MC should be set to at least 5% if a force with enough size to match an enemy enters a region...that would stop this issue).

[richfed]

I have been seeing similar behavior in my game. Seems to be affecting only the enemy stacks [AI]. They will park near my force and repeatedly attack - turn after turn - even though I am entrenched, forces are at least 1:1, and we are fully supplied. My forces have retreated at times pretty normally, but the AI does not appear to do so. Eventually, they knock themselves out.

[Rod Smart]

Something seems very wrong. Can you name a situation in the Civil War where a non-sieged large army that attacked and lost a battle was unable to retreat and, instead, kept attacking over and over for months?

The Eastern 1864 campaign. Grant lost all those battles...

[AndrewKurtz]

The Eastern 1864 campaign. Grant lost all those battles...

But they were in different regions. Any instances where they attacked the same entrenched units over and over. Grant's campaign was a constant move-attack.

[AndrewKurtz]

I have been seeing similar behavior in my game. Seems to be affecting only the enemy stacks [AI]. They will park near my force and repeatedly attack - turn after turn - even though I am entrenched, forces are at least 1:1, and we are fully supplied. My forces have retreated at times pretty normally, but the AI does not appear to do so. Eventually, they knock themselves out.

The force that moves into the region and attacks is the one that has the issue. Do you find your forces retreat if you attacking?

[pgr]

Well I can't be sure about what is happening without a bit more info. My suspicion is that he is still in the same region because the number of days it takes to march out exceeded the number of days left in the turn. If you want to really make sure he does not engage, set the stack to passive and evade combat, and march em back to Alexandria.

[AndrewKurtz]

Well I can't be sure about what is happening without a bit more info. My suspicion is that he is still in the same region because the number of days it takes to march out exceeded the number of days left in the turn. If you want to really make sure he does not engage, set the stack to passive and evade combat, and march em back to Alexandria.

No, number of days is less than 15. He is staying in the region because he changed to offensive, lost the battle and didn't retreat.

[pgr]

would you mind posting the hst. file with the backup file of the previous turn?

I'm assuming you are running 1.04?

[AndrewKurtz]

I am running RC3. Still post?

[pgr]

yep, I just asked so I would know what version I should load to play around with it!

[Captain_Orso]

Well I can't be sure about what is happening without a bit more info. My suspicion is that he is still in the same region because the number of days it takes to march out exceeded the number of days left in the turn. If you want to really make sure he does not engage, set the stack to passive and evade combat, and march em back to Alexandria.

If your stack is forced to retreat through combat results, but cannot exit the region in that turn, it will be easy to recognize, because your stack will still be in the middle of a plotted move after the turn execution has completed.

[Captain_Orso]

What has changed is that ZOC is now being taken into account during retreat.

If you want to get your stack out of the region, you will have to do it yourself, and not wait for it to just pop out on its own without effort.

This behavior was specifically requested. Players were continually complaining that they could never pin a force down, even if it were deep in enemy territory. Now you can.

[pgr]

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong Orso, if you have at least one neighboring province with 100% friendly MC, you should be able to retreat there, correct? (There is some upper limit on ZOC right?)

Anyway, the game file would help enlighten.

[Rod Smart]

But they were in different regions. Any instances where they attacked the same entrenched units over and over. Grant's campaign was a constant move-attack.

Vicksburg?

Attacked, lost, implemented siege.
Attacked, lost, committed to siege.

[AndrewKurtz]

Vicksburg?

Attacked, lost, implemented siege.
Attacked, lost, committed to siege.

Ok. One, but commanders choice. Current issue provides no choice. Just keeps attacking.

I'll get the files listed when I get home. If you could save to OneDrive I'd have them😊