Sharpshooter unit names

[tripax]

I’m not sure where to post this: here, history, or modding. I’m interested in adding more unit names (as flavor) to the game. I’ve started a discussion in the modding forum about the larger project, and I’m ready for the first set of changes, adding named sharpshooter units.

CSA:
In game for the CSA, there are 23 sharpshooter unit names, and a force pool of 36 standalone – 6 from each state (AR GA LA MS NC SC) – and 25 as a part of regiments (5 from AL, 6 from MO, 4 from TX, and 10 from VA). I think there are 2 models for sharpshooters, one which you can train up to achieve. I’m not sure if this training adds a unit back into the force pool.

The named units/models are (in parentheses I write the total size of the pool as the sum of the standalone recruitable units and the units recruitable through larger brigades):
3 Alabama Units (5=0+5 in pool): 17th Alabama*, 23rd Alabama*, AL Morehead's Sharpshooters
3 Arkansas Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Arkansas*, 12th Arkansas*, AR 'Bridges' Sharpshooters'
4 Georgia Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Georgia*, 2nd Georgia*, 3rd Georgia*, 4th Georgia*
1 Louisiana Unit (6=6+0 in pool): 14th Louisiana*
5 Mississippi Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Mississippi*, MS 'Rea's Sharpshooters', MS 'Caruthers' Sharpshooters', 9th Mississippi*, 15th Mississippi*
1 North Carolina Unit (6=6+0 in pool): 1st North Carolina*
4 South Carolina Units (6=6+0 in pool): 'Palmetto Sharpshooters', SC 'Jenkins' Regiment', 1st South Carolina*, 2nd South Carolina
1 Texas Unit (4=0+4 in pool): 1st Texas*
1 Virginia Unit (10=0+10 in pool): 30th Virginia
0 Missouri Units (6=0+6 in pool):

Not included are sharpshooters that arise from special units, such as the 1st GA Sharpshooters in the Savannah Force, the 1st AR Sharpshooters, the 2nd AR Sharpshooters in the Provisional Army of Arkansas, and the Virginia Batallion/Halifax Light in Macgruder’s force

So this leaves at least 37 CSA units to be named.

The book, “Sharpshooters of the American Civil War 1861-65” by Philip Katcher and Steve Walsh (SotACW), also lists all the elements I’ve listed above with an asterisk (*) and also lists 9th Missouri Batallion. It lists all of the units as Batallions. I looked at some of these units in the civil war soldiers database, and the default starting size of 150 men for these units in game seems fairly accurate, these units were much smaller than regiments, having around 200 men.

There are a number of sharpshooter groups which had nicknames which could be added. These include companies of existing regiments and irregular groups. I propose finding such groups and adding those names to the named units (with a preference to groups which played a greater role in the war).


USA:
In game, there are 9 unit names, and a force pool of 33 standalone – (from CT MO OH PA WV) – and 26 as a part of regiments (20 from PA, 6 from IN). I think there are 2 models for sharpshooters, one which you can train up to achieve. I’m not sure if this training adds a unit back into the force pool.

1 Maine Unit (0=0+0 in pool): 1st Maine*[Battalion]
2 Michigan Unit (0=0+0 in pool): 1st Michigan* [Battalion], MI 'Hall's'* [Battalion]
3 Missouri Unit (5=5+0 in pool): 14th MO 'Birge's'* [Regiment], 1st Missouri, 2nd Missouri
1 New York Unit (0=0+0 in pool): 1st New York*[ Battalion]
2 Pennsylvania Units (30=10+20 in pool): 1st US '1st Berdan's*[Regiment], 2nd US '2nd Berdan's* [Regiment]
0 Connecticut Units (8=8+0 in pool):
0 Ohio Units (6=6+0 in pool):
0 West Virginia Units (4=4+0 in pool):
0 Indiana Units (6=0+6 in pool):

Unique units include the 5th CA Sharpshooters, 120th NY Sharpshooters, 106th PA Sharpshooters, 100th NY Sharpshooters, 30th NY Sharpshooters, and 28th NJ Sharpshooters, as well. The Washington Corps has the 1st & 2nd US Sharpshooters in the USA AI events file, I’m not sure under what conditions that forms.

So this leaves 54 USA units to be named.

SotACW also lists all the elements I’ve listed above with an asterisk (*) and also lists 66th Illinois Regiment (possibly same as 14th MO), 1st Massachusetts Company, 2nd Massachusetts Company, 1-10 Ohio Companies. The sizes of these forces where much more varied than the CSA forces, with the 1st & 2nd Berdan’s, for instance being entire regiments.

So the next step is to find names of 37 CSA sharpshooter companies/battalions/regiments and 54 Union. SotACW has some suggestions, but there are many it doesn’t include for whatever reason, or at least not as prominently. One option is to give unit names from states which don’t have any in the force pool to states which do. So, for instance, the 1st Maine Battalion could be recruitable from Connecticut.

Let me know what you think, and if there are any unit names you would like added.

[tripax]

Here is the current proposal which I'll edit as I go along. It is ok if more unit names exist in a state than the total force pool size. A carrot (^) means the unit name is currently in game in that state. Names in italics I’m not sure about and might remove/change.
CSA:
The named units/models are (in parentheses I write the total size of the pool as the sum of the standalone recruitable units and the units recruitable through larger brigades):
3 Alabama Units (5=0+5 in pool): 17th Alabama^, 23rd Alabama^, AL Morehead's Sharpshooters^
3 Arkansas Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Arkansas^, 12th Arkansas^, AR 'Bridges' Sharpshooters'^
4 Georgia Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Georgia^, 2nd Georgia^, 3rd Georgia^, 4th Georgia^
1 Louisiana Unit (6=6+0 in pool): 14th Louisiana^
5 Mississippi Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Mississippi^, MS 'Rea's Sharpshooters'^, MS 'Caruthers' Sharpshooters'^, 9th Mississippi^, 15th Mississippi^
1 North Carolina Unit (6=6+0 in pool): 1st North Carolina^
4 South Carolina Units (6=6+0 in pool): 'Palmetto Sharpshooters'^, SC 'Jenkins' Regiment'^, 1st South Carolina^, 2nd South Carolina^
1 Texas Unit (4=0+4 in pool): 1st Texas^
1 Virginia Unit (10=0+10 in pool): 30th Virginia^
0[1] Missouri Units (6=0+6 in pool): 9th Missouri Battalion

USA:
1 Maine Unit (0=0+0 in pool): 1st Maine^
2 Michigan Unit (0=0+0 in pool): 1st Michigan^, MI 'Hall's'^
3 Missouri Unit (5=5+0 in pool): 14th MO 'Birge's'^, 1st Missouri^, 2nd Missouri^
1 New York Unit (0=0+0 in pool): 1st New York^
2 Pennsylvania Units (30=10+20 in pool): 1st US '1st Berdan's^, 2nd US '2nd Berdan's^
0[2] Connecticut Units (8=8+0 in pool): 1st Maine, 1st New York
0 Ohio Units (6=6+0 in pool):
0 West Virginia Units (4=4+0 in pool):
0[2] Indiana Units (6=0+6 in pool): 1st Michigan, MI 'Hall's'

[13thnct]

First off, for whatever it's worth, I think this is an excellent endeavor. For me at least, the names of the units add a ton of flavor to the game, and it's always cool for me to spot a unit I recognize in the game.

There are a number of sharpshooter groups which had nicknames which could be added. These include companies of existing regiments and irregular groups. I propose finding such groups and adding those names to the named units (with a preference to groups which played a greater role in the war).
.

I'm no history grognard, but this seems like a very reasonable approach to me. In terms of history flavor names, it was very common for company's to have nicknames often deriving where they were from.
I can't speak to the efficacy of this site, but you might find this of value in terms of coming up with historical flavor names for states on both sides of the Mason Dixon.
Note: (I'm a forum stalker, not a poster, so I can't post links)
civilwarroster(dot)com
Click on any state (e.g. as my name suggests, I'm rather partial to the Old North State) and you get sort of a random list of links, many of which are dead, but even more of which would serve as unit flavor names.
Might I suggest that the "The Ranalsburg Riflemen" (from the 13th Regiment North Carolina Troops Co. B) has an excellent ring to it.

[tripax]

Thanks! Looking at info I can find about the Ranalsburg Riflemen, I'm not sure if it was really a sharpshooter or skirmisher company. I don't want to make the bar too high, so if you have some info, let me know. Many companies have sharpshooter in their nickname, such as Co F of the Virginia 27th, which is called "Greenbrier Sharpshooters". The 27th is in the game already, though, as a part of the Stonewall brigade and isn't a sharpshooter in the game. On the other hand, 203rd Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry (called "Birney's Sharpshooters" and issued green uniforms) didn't actually serve as sharpshooters.

[tripax]

I went through Brett Schulte's review of "Shock Troops of the Confederacy" by Fred Ray and noted important sharpshooters I could find. He focusses on Confederate forces. Ray's idea is that companies from Confederate Brigades (so multiple regiments) were sometimes combined to form sharpshooting. In fact, most (all) brigades from the Army of Northern Virginia had sharpshooters. Robert Rodes and Eugene Blackford, are mostly responsible for the formation of the Confederate sharpshooter battalions in the east after Rodes had trouble in South Mountain in the fall of 1862 fighting sharpshooters of the Pennsylvania Bucktails. By the way, this suggests that General Rodes might do well to have a sharpshooter related bonus and that southern sharpshooter units could be recruited more after fall 1862 than before. Also it suggests that CSA sharpshooters might be better recruited as a part of brigades than as stand along units, but I think it is fine as stand-alone.

Some of the units mentioned in particular are:

Sharpshooters of Archer's Tennessee Brigade
Conley's Confederate Sharpshooters (NC)
Blackford's Sharpshooter Batallion (AL)
Sharpshooters of Rodes’s Brigade (AL)
Sharpshooters of Colquitt's Brigade (GA)
Sharpshooters of Ramseur’s Brigade (NC)
Batallion from Iverson's Brigade (NC)
Batallion from Dole's Brigade (GA)
Batallion from Daniel’s Brigade (NC)
Sharpshooters of Battle's Brigade (AL)
Third Georgia Sharpshooter Battalion of Wofford’s Brigade
Dorsey Pender’s Division Sharpshooters (NC) - the 13th NC were here
Third South Carolina Infantry battalion of Joseph Kershaw’s brigade
sharpshooters of Samuel McGowan’s Brigade (SC)
Sharpshooters of Mahone's Brigade (VA)
Sharpshooters of Anderson's Brigade (GA)
Sharpshooters of Lane’s Brigade (NC)
Sharpshooters of Scales’ Brigades (NC) - the 13th NC were here as well
Sharpshooters of Gordon's Brigade (GA)
Sharpshooters of McComb's Brigade (TN)
Sharpshooters of Davis's Brigade (MS)
Sharpshooters of Cooke's's Brigade (NC)
Sharpshooters of MacRae's's Brigade (NC)

All of these except Blackford's and Conley's are named for the brigade commanders. So that for example, Sharpshooters of Archer's Tennessee Brigade could be named for Major Buchanan, who was in command of the battalion when they shot General John Reynolds at Gettysburg. Conley's were a part of Thomas' Legion and were among the last troops to fire a shot in the war. Blackford's were made up at different times of sharpshooters from Rodes, Colquitt, Ramseur, Iverson, Dole, Daniel, and Battle's brigades under Rodes Division command. So I think it might be worthwhile to look up the names of sharpshooter commanders from these brigades and give the units those names - this would avoid cases where Sharpshooters of Archer's Tennessee Brigade don't actually serve with Archer's Brigade.

These groups fill out required names for most eastern CSA states, but do not fill things out in the west, nor for Virginia (needed are approx 3 in AK, 5 in LA, 3 in TX, 9 in VA, 5 in MO). We could make some NC brigades recruitable in VA and Tennessee brigades recruitable in Arkansas and maybe Missouri (as is done with cavalry recruited in Iowa). Then all that would be left would be finding irregulars in Texas, Louisiana, and Missouri to give names to those units.

Again, I'm assuming that we wouldn't change force pools, an alternate solution would be to change force pools to match units we find.

[Le Ricain]

Thanks! Looking at info I can find about the Ranalsburg Riflemen, I'm not sure if it was really a sharpshooter or skirmisher company. I don't want to make the bar too high, so if you have some info, let me know. Many companies have sharpshooter in their nickname, such as Co F of the Virginia 27th, which is called "Greenbrier Sharpshooters". The 27th is in the game already, though, as a part of the Stonewall brigade and isn't a sharpshooter in the game. On the other hand, 203rd Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry (called "Birney's Sharpshooters" and issued green uniforms) didn't actually serve as sharpshooters.

Worthwhile project. I think that is important to point out the role of sharpshooters in the war. Sharpshooters were not snipers, as the latter day connotation would imply, but rather were elite skirmisher units. If the Ranaldsburg Rifleman were employed as skirmishers, then they would qualify as sharpshooters.

[tripax]

Thanks! Good point. That said, sharpshooters weren't exactly common picket line soldiers, either. Sharpshooter battalions in the south were often organized at the brigade level, a company that was occasionally used as skirmishers on a picket line shouldn't be considered a sharpshooter company, exactly.

I've looked through my list of brigades with sharpshooter battalions and found commanders of each. Other commanders of each existed as well, so we could always just name the battalion after the brigade, but I prefer this way (let me know if you prefer a different way). Also, General Rodes and Major Blackford are super important for CSA sharpshooters, so it might be fitting to name one Rodes' Sharpshooters, another Blackford's, and a third Parks's, who commanded sharpshooters of Rodes' old brigade when Rodes moved up to division command and Blackford was commanding sharpshooters elsewhere.

Sharpshooters of Archer's Tennessee Brigade - Buchanan's Battalion of Sharpshooters
Conley's Confederate Sharpshooters (NC)
Sharpshooters of Ramseur’s Brigade (NC) - Lt Harney cited at Gettysburg, call it Harney's Sharpshooters
Batallion from Iverson's Brigade (NC) - Led by Capt Robinson at Gettysburg, call it Robinson's Sharpshooters
Batallion from Daniel’s Brigade (NC) - Led by Capt London at Gettysburg, call it London's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of Perrin's Brigades (NC) - Led by Capt Haskell at Gettysburg, call it Haskell's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of Lane’s Brigade (NC) - Led by Major Wooten at Petersberg, call it Wooton's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of Scales’ Brigades (NC) - Led by Capt Young, call it Young's Sharpshooters
harpshooters of Cooke's's Brigade (NC) - Led by Capt Carson, call it Carson's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of MacRae's's Brigade (NC) - Led by Capt Lilly, call it Lilly's Sharpshooters
Third South Carolina Infantry battalion of Joseph Kershaw’s brigade
Sharpshooters of Samuel McGowan’s Brigade (SC) - Led by Capt Haskell again, but nicknamed Lee's Sharpshooters
Blackford's Sharpshooter Batallion (AL) (O'neal's brigade/Rodes' Old Brigade at Gettysburg)
Sharpshooters of Rodes’ Brigade (AL) - Led by Lt Park, call it Park's Sharpshooters (Rodes could have 2 or 3 batallions related to him)
Sharpshooters of Battle's Brigade (AL) - Also commanded by Blackford
Sharpshooters of Colquitt's Brigade (GA) - Led by Capt Arnold, call it Arnold's Sharpshooters
Batallion from Dole's Brigade (GA) - Led by Capt Pryor at Gettysburg, call it Pryor's Sharpshooters
Third Georgia Sharpshooter Battalion of Wofford’s Brigade
Sharpshooters of Anderson's Brigade (GA) - Palmetto Sharpshooters (SC)
Sharpshooters of Gordon's Brigade (GA) - Led by Capt Kagler, call it Kagler's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of Mahone's Brigade (VA) - Led by Capt Field, call it Field's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of McComb's Brigade (TN) - Led by Lt Harris at Petersberg, call it Harris's Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters of Davis's Brigade (MS) - Led by Capt O'Neal, call it O'Neal's Sharpshooters

Also in Arkansas there were Chew's Battalion of Sharpshooters, Lawrence Sharp-Shooters, Quitman Sharp-Shooters, Springfield Sharp-Shooters
In Louisiana there were 15th (Weatherly's) Battalion Sharp Shooters, Red River Sharp Shooters, 1st Battalion Louisiana Sharpshooters (not sure), Wheat's Tiger Rifles (not sure)

In Texas the 1st Texas had four companies, so the names could be broken up by company, similar to how artillery names work (this would fill the force pool of 4).
In Missouri there were the 9th Missouri Battalion [had 6 compainies], Searcy's Battalion Sharp Shooters [had 6 companies]. Breaking these into 3 froups of 2 companies each would fill the force pool of 6).

[tripax]

So to me, this kind of completes the confederate side of things. Here is what I have:

CSA:
The named units/models are (the first number is the number of named units currently in game, in brackets are the number of named units including my additions, in parentheses I write the total size of the pool as the sum of the standalone recruitable units and the units recruitable through larger brigades):
3[6] Alabama Units (5=0+5 in pool): 17th Alabama^, 23rd Alabama^, AL Morehead's Sharpshooters^, Blackford's Sharpshooter Battalion, Park's Sharpshooters, Rodes' brigade Sharpshooters
3[6] Arkansas Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Arkansas^, 12th Arkansas^, AR 'Bridges' Sharpshooters'^ , Chew's Battalion of Sharpshooters, Lawrence Sharpshooters, Springfield Sharp-Shooters
4[7] Georgia Units (6=6+0 in pool): 2nd Georgia^, 3rd Georgia^, 4th Georgia^, Arnold's Sharpshooters, Pryor's Sharpshooters, Kagler's Sharpshooters
1[6] Louisiana Unit (6=6+0 in pool): 14th Louisiana^, 15th (Weatherly's) Battalion Sharp Shooters, Red River Sharp Shooters, Wheat's Tiger Rifles (not sure), 1st Georgia^, Quitman Sharpshooters [AK]
5[6] Mississippi Units (6=6+0 in pool): 1st Mississippi^, MS 'Rea's Sharpshooters'^, MS 'Caruthers' Sharpshooters'^, 9th Mississippi^, 15th Mississippi^, O'Neal's Sharpshooters
1[6] North Carolina Unit (6=6+0 in pool): 1st North Carolina^, Harney's Sharpshooters, Robinson's Sharpshooters, London's Sharpshooters, Haskell's Sharpshooters, Wooton's Sharpshooters
4[6] South Carolina Units (6=6+0 in pool): 'Palmetto Sharpshooters'^, SC 'Jenkins' Regiment'^, 1st South Carolina^, 2nd South Carolina^, 3rd South Carolina Infantry battalion, Lee's Sharpshooters
1[10] Texas Unit (4=0+4 in pool): 1st Texas^ [had 4 companies, could be split]
1[10] Virginia Unit (10=0+10 in pool): 30th Virginia^ [had 6 companies could be split], Field's Sharpshooters, Buchanan's Battalion of Sharpshooters[TN], Harris's Sharpshooters[TN], Young's Sharpshooters [NC], Carson's Sharpshooters [NC], Lilly's Sharpshooters [NC]
0[6] Missouri Units (6=0+6 in pool): 9th Missouri Battalion [had 6 companies could be split], Searcy's Battalion Sharp Shooters [had 6 companies could be split],

Since the 1st Georgia battalion's fought in Mississippi and the west, I've suggested moving it to Louisiana rather than get a second irregular brigade (the Tiger Rifles being a special brigade, close enough to sharpshooters I guess).

Let me know what you think! I don't have personal attachment to any unit, so I'm happy to move things around, add, or delete things if it makes sense to do so. My goal is to do this for USA Sharps, then Cav and Arty, then militia, then infantry, last special units such as balloons or pontoons, and finally to use it all to edit the game files and create the mod.

[tripax]

For the Union, things are harder. There were a number of regiments who were recruited as sharpshooters and some even trained as sharpshooters but who then served primarily as regular units, for example the 13th Pennsylvania Bucktails. If the Union wanted, they could have used these as sharpshooters, so I think we can remove those names from infantry and add them to sharpshooters. Also, since the Union didn't use sharpshooter battalions, it is much easier to break large sharpshooter regiments (Berdan's, Birges) into companies or groups of companies. Finally, since finding union sharpshooter regiments has been hard, I'm going to recommend breaking even smaller regiments into companies. Scanning the book on Berdan's (http://archive.org/stream/berdansunitedsta00stev/berdansunitedsta00stev_djvu.txt for instance page 95-101), companies were detached and send to different divisions/generals for service, so breaking sharpshooter regiments into companies isn't inaccurate.

[tripax]

So here is my proposed breakdown for US sharpshooter units. Each of the three major sharpshooter brigades - Birges Western, Berdan's 1st, and Berdan's 2nd - are broken down by company. Bucktails and Birney's Regiments in PA, 13 IN, and Yates in IL are included. The 5th-7th Independent Ohio companies are combined, the 1st NY, 43rd NY, and 1st Main are split into companies, as is the 13th Indiana (5 companies after reorganization into veteran pseudo-sharpshooters). There were many companies of regular regiments which served as sharpshooters, but all the companies I've included seem more appropriate (except maybe the four regiments trained as sharpshooters which served mostly as regulars). Also I dropped the 1st and 2nd Missouri, I can't seem to find anything about them outseide of the Missouri companies I already have. Note that many companies would be recruitable outside their home state.

Missouri Unit (5=5+0 in pool): Holman's Company, Welker's Co of Birge's, Boyd's Co of Birge's, Birges Co B, Birges Co F
Pennsylvania Units (30=10+20 in pool): Bucktails Regiment (13 PA), Birney's Regiment (203 PA), Co A 1st Berdan's[NY], Co B 1st Berdan's[NY], Co C 1st Berdan's[MI], Co D 1st Berdan's[NY], Co E 1st Berdan's[NH], Co F 1st Berdan's[VT], Co G 1st Berdan's[WI], Co H 1st Berdan's[NY], Co I 1st Berdan's[MI], Co K 1st Berdan's[MI], Co A 2nd Berdan's[MI], Co B 2nd Berdan's[MI], Co C 2nd Berdan's[PA], Co D 2nd Berdan's[ME], Co E 2nd Berdan's[VT], Co F 2nd Berdan's[NH], Co G 2nd Berdan's[NH], Co H 2nd Berdan's[VT], Co 6 1st New York, Co 7 1st New York, Co 8 1st New York, Co 9 1st New York, Cos A-E of 43rd New York (Albany Rifles), Birges Co C[IL], Birges Co D[MI], Birges Co E[IL], Halls's Independent Battalion (MI), MI 'Dygert's'
Connecticut Units (8=8+0 in pool): 1st Company Massachusetts Sharpshooters, 2nd Company Massachusetts Sharpshooters, 3rd Company Massachusetts Rifle Battalion, 4th Company Massachusetts Rifle Battalion, Cos A-D 1st Maine
Ohio Units (6=6+0 in pool): Reed's Sharpshooters (Birge's), Dougherty's Sharpshooters (Birge's), Taylor's Sharpshooters (Birge's), 4th Indep OH Co, Bat of 5th, 6th, & 7th Indep OH Co, and 8th Indep OH Co
West Virginia Units (4=4+0 in pool): 1st Michigan, MI 'Brady's', Jardine's Independent Company (MI), Birges Co I[IL]
Indiana Units (6=0+6 in pool): Co A 13th Indiana, Co B 13th Indiana, Co C 13th Indiana, Co D 13th Indiana, Co E 13th Indiana, Yates' Sharpshooters (64 IL)

This list was edited to add 2 MA Rifle Battalions and rearranged slightly.

[13thnct]

Worthwhile project. I think that is important to point out the role of sharpshooters in the war. Sharpshooters were not snipers, as the latter day connotation would imply, but rather were elite skirmisher units. If the Ranaldsburg Rifleman were employed as skirmishers, then they would qualify as sharpshooters.

To be sure, there is nothing in the history of this company that I know of to suggest that they were employed any differently than the rest of the 13th regiment. The suggestion was more tongue in cheek than anything else as I'm a member of the reenactment group. Regardless of the names you go with, I'm looking forward to this mod

[tripax]

I imagined so. In AACW I would keep track of certain units due to distant personal connections, and I felt like doing something like this would decrease the number of troops left out. One problem I have is I don't really know very much, and have to do the research as I go. So any help is great.

For instance, the confederate sharpshooter battalions I've picked seem to represent important captains and their men, but they are already somewhat represented in that their regiment numbers and brigade names are already in game. So while these choices give a chance to honor a lot of new people, it would be fine if there were independent CSA sharpshooter companies or battalions to add instead of some of these.

The same is true on the union side. On that side I found enough independent companies and battalions (plus the Brige's and 2 Berdan's) that broken by company it fills out the force pool. But if I missed a few, I could combine companies and add new ones, which would be great, too.

[tripax]

I'm planning on removing wheat's tiger rifles as I think Caruther's Mississippi battalion joined the Louisiana tigers, at least for some time. That would mean that the Tiger's sharpshooters are already in my list. Plus, the Tiger rifles are already in game (as part of the Louisiana Tiger Brigade). As a note to myself, there are a number of battalions I missed mentioned in the order of battles on this site: http://www.civilwarhome.com/.

[Eugene Carr]

Nice research .
S!

[tripax]

Thanks. By the way, what does "S!" mean?

[Eugene Carr]

Salute

S!

[Ol' Choctaw]

I think you missed the Cherokee Sharpshooters from Thomas’ Legion. They had a much longer Indian name for the unit, which I don’t remember at the moment and wouldn’t fit on a unit counter anyway.

The unit is in the game but I don’t think it has the abilities.

[tripax]

Hmm, I have those as Junaluska Zouaves as a Zuaves unit. The sharpshooters of that unit was led by Captain Robert Conley, so we could add "Conley's Cherokee Sharpshooters [NC]". In game, where is the unit? I see a Cherokee Legion in Georgia, is there "Thomas' Legion" or the 69th NC or something somewhere?


By the way, I could also add a small 50 man sharpshooter command in Higgenbottom's 25th Virginia under McCray and Yancey (say "McCray's Sharpshooters [VA]".

[Ol' Choctaw]

Thomas' Legion spawns in Sep 62 in Tennessee currently.

[RebelYell]

Thomas' Legion spawns in Sep 62 in Tennessee currently.

Love the unit, have it under Kirby Smiths division, operating in East Tennessee, other units in the division are all light infantry and sharpshooters.

[tripax]

Thanks for the note. I haven't paid much attention to the hard-coded spawning. I forgot about it for a little while, and once I remembered I decided that I would keep ignoring it until I had everything ready, then I could go through and check for duplicates.

[grimjaw]

Old thread, but I am trying to update sharpshooter regiment names myself and researching the history of it. From what I can find, and I might be missing quite a bit, there were never that many dedicated sharpshooter regiments in the Union army (not focusing on CSA at the moment). Typically regiments were split into 6-10 companies, as tripax and others have noted in this post, but those companies were not split far and wide between several divisions or regions. For the 1st and 2nd US, they often operated in the same corps or division.

So is what's modeled in the vanilla game just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off or am I missing something?

[Captain_Orso]

You're missing that the game isn't an absolute 1-1 simulation of reality. In the game Sharpshooters--aside from their direct combat affects--give the "unit" they are in--in other words, the brigade or the division ONLY--an initiative bonus during battle. It's not an ability provided for other units within the same stack.

So the game allows you to build lots and lots of these and put them into divisions so that they can provide their initiative bonus to their entire divisional unit.

[tripax]

... So is what's modeled in the vanilla game just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off or am I missing something?

In my opinion, it is complicated. There are reasons why sharpshooters in the game are the way they are, and some of the reasons are good ones. In my opinion, the game made interesting and mostly good choices about what types of regiments to include, how to model them, how many to give to each state, how to group them into brigades, what names to give regiments and brigades, etc. However, I think that there were some issues that didn't get fully developed and what is left is a bit confusing. So, in the case of sharpshooters: the game gives more sharpshooters to the Union than the confederacy which in my opinion should not be. The names of sharpshooter units makes them seem like regiments when they are better thought of as companies or battalions (and the number of men per hit possibly lowered). Light infantry, which are modelled as similar to sharpshooters were intended to upgrade to some sort of regular infantry, this upgrade wasn't instituted, and the unit probably shouldn't be in the game very much if at all. Anti-artillery and anti-siege aspects of sharpshooters are not modelled.

As for unit names, I'm 100% for cleaning this up and filling it out. In fact, I've done a lot of this work in the unit names mod. I'm super glad you are interested, and if I can be of any help, let me know. By the way, I was planning to not update my unit names to work with the new patch until long unit names were changed back (see other thread), but if it would be useful to you, it really won't take very long. And of course, feel free to ask any questions, and I'm happy to help!

[grimjaw]

You're missing that the game isn't an absolute 1-1 simulation of reality.

Orso, you should know from our discussion on fort artillery that I know the game isn't 1-1, and I know how the abilities work.

For my own enjoyment, I am trying to get the units closer to the historical times, places and numbers involved. It doesn't detract from my fun to stray off the path of historical fact. I don't want my matches to be a 100% mirror of events. I don't see any problem with divvying up the sharpshooters into company-sized units and dispersing them. For several of the other regular Army units, their companies were spread far and wide so it's not like it was unprecedented. Force structure in reality changed significantly in both armies (the Union Cavalry Corps is one example), and there's no reason why I can't make the same kind of change as de facto General-in-Chief.

What I was trying to discern was whether or not the historical sharpshooter regiments were a larger group than the 1st & 2nd US, 1st Michigan, 13th PA Reserves, and the 66th Illinois (Birge's). The number of companies in those regiments matches pretty closely to the number of units in the game.

tripax, can you tell me more about what you know about the intended role of the light infantry in the game? Seems like it's a throwback to earlier formation warfare and maybe other AGEOD games. Weren't cavalry were more often the skirmishers in the ACW?

[tripax]

You're missing that the game isn't an absolute 1-1 simulation of reality.

I know that you don't mean it this way, but I find this attitude not to be very good. A lot of the discussions on this forum is how to make the game a better simulation. I think that is a good thing, and I don't see why it should be discouraged. Maybe I've missed something from another discussion that is spilling over, but I'm all for talking about it.

For my own enjoyment, I am trying to get the units closer to the historical times, places and numbers involved. It doesn't detract from my fun to stray off the path of historical fact. I don't want my matches to be a 100% mirror of events. I don't see any problem with divvying up the sharpshooters into company-sized units and dispersing them. For several of the other regular Army units, their companies were spread far and wide so it's not like it was unprecedented. Force structure in reality changed significantly in both armies (the Union Cavalry Corps is one example), and there's no reason why I can't make the same kind of change as de facto General-in-Chief.

As I think I said in this thread, the size of the sharpshooter units in the game is closer to that of a company or battalion; so the work of divying into company-sized units is already pretty much done. You can see in an earlier post my attempt to split the total set of sharpshooters into the number that currently exist in the forcepool. My thought was that the game balance is pretty good so my unit names mod didn't touch balance, it just gave every unit in the game a historic name - borrowing names from neighboring states when necessary.

What I was trying to discern was whether or not the historical sharpshooter regiments were a larger group than the 1st & 2nd US, 1st Michigan, 13th PA Reserves, and the 66th Illinois (Birge's). The number of companies in those regiments matches pretty closely to the number of units in the game.

I'm not sure what you mean "larger than the 1st & 2nd,..." Certainly there weren't sharpshooter divisions. I think the confederate sharpshooter tactics were fairly uniform, I think Rhode's/Blackford's methods were passed around, and at least in the East, one could speak of regimental or brigade sharpshooter in a similar way to speaking of regimental or brigade engineers - they were a company or a detail consisting of men from every company frequently called to service under a company captain or lieutenant to perform a certain set of tasks. SotACW is wonderful on confederate sharpshooters.

For the Union, they were more often a dedicated company. But you are right, some sharpshooter regiments (1st and 2nd US, 1st Michigan, and 66th Illinois) were broken down by company or battalion and distributed to different divisions (usually staying within one corps, I think, but not always, I think). Others, such as the 13 Pennsylvania Bucktails were trained as sharpshooters and as infantry but were used primarily as infantry (possibly because division/corps command didn't have any use for an entire regiment of sharpshooters and may not have known how better to deploy them anyway).

The existence of so many sharpshooter units in the game suggests that they should be given names along the lines of companies or battalions, not regiments. In this thread I've given a number of suitable company and battalion nicknames for Union sharpshooters and also the names of the commanders of notable confederate sharpshooter details to serve as nicknames for confederate sharpshooters. I think that is a good solution and used them in my mod, feel free to use this or make changes.

tripax, can you tell me more about what you know about the intended role of the light infantry in the game? Seems like it's a throwback to earlier formation warfare and maybe other AGEOD games. Weren't cavalry were more often the skirmishers in the ACW?

Based on his discussion starting June 3rd on another thread (link here), caranorn played a role in creating brigade composition and regiment and brigade names for this game (actually from AACW but little changes were made). He did a great job, but from his comments I gathered that his resources were limited and he was pressed for time (with the internet as it is, I was able to redo all the army names for my mod very quickly). His intention was for at least some light infantry, sharpshooters, cavalry, and artillery which was integrated into brigades to "upgrade" into regular infantry of some sort (similarly to how conscript infantry do now, I guess).

This is based on Grant's conversion of heavy artillery into infantry and how many cavalry men served unhorsed at various times, I guess. To me it suggests there wasn't a clear idea what light infantry (and to some degree sharpshooters) were meant to be, as in the real war I don't think they follow this example - the roles of sharpshooters (at least in the confederacy as described by SotACW) became more specialized as the war went on.

[Captain_Orso]

I know that you don't mean it this way, but I find this attitude not to be very good. A lot of the discussions on this forum is how to make the game a better simulation. I think that is a good thing, and I don't see why it should be discouraged. Maybe I've missed something from another discussion that is spilling over, but I'm all for talking about it.

I probably didn't, as I don't recognize that you've understood what I meant, sorry.

What I so unsuccessfully alluded at was that the game is setup to 'fit together' more than fit reality, and in doing so mirror reality, which I find it does rather well; though there's always room for improvement. Ask Pocus how many suggestions I make and how much I try to convince him into "fixing" something to make the game more "awesome".

In general the game uses regiment sized elements as its basis, and--mostly for 'color', but, also as a reference on which to orient the game--each regiment is made up of 20 Conscript Companies (CC's) each representing '1 hit' in the game. The game goes by the 10 company battalion in that an infantry and cavalry elements have 20 hits (2 battalions x 10 companies). Ergo, normal infantry regiments--an element--has s20 hits, when fully recovered. Sharpshooters however have 10 hits, equivalent to a battalion of 10 companies.

Could one go below this for sharpshooters? I suppose one could, but to what end?

8<

[grimjaw]

I'm not sure what you mean "larger than the 1st & 2nd,..." Certainly there weren't sharpshooter divisions.

What I meant was, were there more regiments who had the upgraded weaponry, higher standards and/or tactics and were identified like the other regiments were. Since my last post I read about a Michigan regiment that was identified as sharpshooters.

1st and 2nd US Sharpshooters were regular army units, others were volunteer. From what I can see online (the few works I have in print don't cover this), the practice with Army regulars was often to divide or combine their companies into units as circumstances dictated. The regular infantry and cavalry regiments might have companies on both coasts of the country simultaneously. The same was true for the regular Army sharpshooters, I think. You can see the organization in a few orders of battle, about two years apart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pines_Union_order_of_battle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_Union_order_of_battle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Harbor_Union_order_of_battle

During Seven Pines, you can see V Corp, 1st Division has practically an entire regiment of sharpshooters, 10 companies, from mixed regiments assigned. Two are assigned to brigades (1st & 2nd MA Sharps usually fought with MA infantry regiments) and the remainder of the 1st US as probably something like provost marshal. During Seven Days it's a similar arrangement, with the addition of a little over half the regiment of 13th PA combined with the rest of the Reserves in a brigade.

During Cold Harbor, four companies of 1st US (NY Battalion) were assigned to V Corps, 1st Division, 1st Brigade (by then, part of the Iron Brigade). The rest of 1st US fought as a regiment attached to other brigades. 2nd US was divvied up this way as well, some of the companies assigned to brigades or provost duty while the remainder fought as a regiment attached to a brigade. 13th PA Reserves fought as a regiment at Cold Harbor, or at least subdivision into companies is not detailed on that webpage.

The game can't subdivide into companies, nor am I proposing or recommending such a change. The way I approach the current setup when trying to match historical unit composition is to consider regiments as the smallest unit. Where the majority of companies were gathered or fought, that was where the regiment was at the beginning of the conflict or when it was formed. In the case of the sharpshooters, it doesn't work well because you can't mix their game models (companies) into the way they were used in reality. Given that limitation, using them as defined as company-sized units works fine. I don't know if I agree with the number of hits they have. They already have increased firepower and initiative bonus. 10 hits, 15 men/hit; typical infantry regiment has 20 hits, 30 men/hit. 150 men versus 600 men, doesn't mean that the sharpshooters were more survivable as a unit.

I think the confederate sharpshooter tactics were fairly uniform

I haven't even looked at the rebels yet, but your information will prove very useful. Too bad they can't have an attribute like, percentage change to lower enemy artillery cohesion and service asset cohesion and hits.

[tripax]

@Captain_Orso: No problem. I think in the case of sharpshooters and artillery, it is ok to think of the element as representing something other than a regiment. I know this can be weird - for instance the limit of 17 elements + leader for divisions doesn't equal 17 regiments in this case. But to me, I think the game as designed is pretty great and adding company/battalion names to existing models makes for nice color. I think grimjaw is looking at making deeper modifications in the components of the models (number of hits, attributes, etc), which is fine but is slightly different from my project and so may or may not overlap (but I'm still interested and hope to be of help).

@grimjaw: In my research, I didn't find many entire regiments that were trained as sharpshooters. I've listed them by state (or neighboring state) earlier in this thread. I think only the SC Palmetto Sharpshooters, Birge's two regiments, and maybe Berdan's were used almost always as sharpshooters, most were used regularly as regular infantry. You seem to have as good of a grasp on how they were used in battle as I (although I again recommend reading SotACW at least for the fun of it). In my work I try to do the Confederates first because I like the Union more and research on the Union is easier, so doing the Confederates first means I'm more likely to finish both sides. I'm a bit confused about your last full paragraph, though:

The game can't subdivide into companies, nor am I proposing or recommending such a change.

No, but the game isn't modelling sharpshooter elements as regiments. The game models them as 150 men groupings. This is somewhere in size between a company and a battalion. So in my mod I felt pretty good naming them after Union sharpshooter companies and Confederate sharpshooter battalion commanders.

The way I approach the current setup when trying to match historical unit composition is to consider regiments as the smallest unit.

This isn't the way it is done for artillery, and I see no reason to force sharpshooters to be regiments, but you can do it that way if you want. It will be hard to find very many sharpshooter regiments, so the forcepool will have a lot of unnamed regiments, I guess. You might want to increase the number of men per hit and hits, I'm not sure.

Where the majority of companies were gathered or fought, that was where the regiment was at the beginning of the conflict or when it was formed. In the case of the sharpshooters, it doesn't work well because you can't mix their game models (companies) into the way they were used in reality. Given that limitation, using them as defined as company-sized units works fine.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I think you are agreeing that naming the in-game elements for companies/battalions makes more sense than naming them for regiments. As for spreading companies across brigades and divisions (which could be done for engineering regiments during a battle as well), this is in part a case where the lack of tactics in the game handcuffs the player.

I don't know if I agree with the number of hits they have. They already have increased firepower and initiative bonus. 10 hits, 15 men/hit; typical infantry regiment has 20 hits, 30 men/hit. 150 men versus 600 men, doesn't mean that the sharpshooters were more survivable as a unit.

If they have too few hits, they can starve easily. Too many hits and they are selected for combat more often. 10 hits and 150 men seems great to me, but I could see arguments for increasing it - especially if you think they should represent regiments rather than companies/battalions. Their high protection (and high evasion?) protects them so that they have high survival rates (as they would in a real battle since they weren't expected to stay at the front when things got very hot). I'm not sure what firepower bonus they have, I think they have less firepower than militia units and about the same as light infantry.

[grimjaw]

This isn't the way it is done for artillery, and I see no reason to force sharpshooters to be regiments,

I agree. Before I started making modifications I wanted to make sure I understood what actually happened.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I think you are agreeing that naming the in-game elements for companies/battalions makes more sense than naming them for regiments.

Correct. I agree with you that the company names (1st US Shrp Co A or what have you) work great for vanilla.

As far as hits goes, that's a whole other can of worms. The only thing in that regard that I've considered modifying on sharpshooters is lowering the men/hit number to more closely match historical company size, which is just flavor.

I don't pretend to have much understanding of how the game engineers combat. In the game, a hit is a hit is a hit, isn't it? I mean it's the basic component of unit health, and will represent varying percentages based on the number of total hits. It just didn't make much sense to me that in a head on match of 150 men (sharps) vs 600 men (line inf rgt), all other things being equal, the 150 is somehow half as robust instead of 1/4. The sharpshooters must all be descendants of Spartans.