Let's talk weather.

[Doomwalker]

OK, I am playing under 1.04 and have noticed the weather is still not right for much of the south. In the image below I have marked what I feel more acurately portrays southern weather. The line can be stretched east and west, and I believe would still be accurate. As far as north of the line, the percentages climb, but I am not sure as to what I would put in the game for them.

Note in this shot you can see the Mississippi has snow on its banks, this continues south to the Gulf. In Florida there are patches of snow also.

[tagwyn]

I was born and raised in the mid-south. Have you ever experienced a freezing rain? Where you can't even stand up ourside? Much worse than snow. I think the weather as modeled in the game is fine. Don't change it Pocus! Larry

[aryaman]

I would say beware of modern comparisons, in 1860 temperatures were on average 0.8 ºC colder than today.

[Doomwalker]

No it needs changeing. In the game I got the pic from all of Texas and the Indian Territory are under snow, yet Kansas has none. Their is a large patch in Florida, umm this definitely would not happen, especially in March.

And yes after spending 32 years in Alabama, I know what freezeing rain is. But, I can also count the freezeing rain episodes that I have lived through on 1 hand.

As far as the temp difference, 0.8 isn't going to change much when the average temp is already 50 degrees.

[aryaman]

As far as the temp difference, 0.8 isn't going to change much when the average temp is already 50 degrees.

Mind that I am talking about ºC (Celsius), average world temperature is 10ºC, so 0.8ºC does matter a lot. Besides the 1860 decade was especially cold.

[denisonh]

No it needs changeing. In the game I got the pic from all of Texas and the Indian Territory are under snow, yet Kansas has none. Their is a large patch in Florida, umm this definitely would not happen, especially in March.

And yes after spending 32 years in Alabama, I know what freezeing rain is. But, I can also count the freezeing rain episodes that I have lived through on 1 hand.

As far as the temp difference, 0.8 isn't going to change much when the average temp is already 50 degrees.

Haven't we had this conversation before? The AVERAGE may be 0.8 C, but the fact is that March, October and November were much colder. Just a couple of degrees has a big impact: Think 34 degrees F vs 32 degrees F. It means for a slightly longer winter and increased chance for freezing weather.

From a previous post:
Tempratures in the 1860s are below the current for today and using today's weather trends and patterns may not be totaly accurate, particularly in the spring months.

Based on temperature data that shows the delta from 2005, the 1861-66 were 1-2 degrees Farenheit cooler on average (converted from degrees C) :

____JAN_ FEB_ MAR APR MAY JUN_ JUL_ AUG SEP OCT NOV_ DEC
Avg 1.69 1.47 2.02 1.73 1.76 1.20 1.45 1.52 1.64 2.19 2.26 1.44

As for freezing rain, I have seen it more times than I can remember in my many years living in the south. It is a regular winter phenomenon in Texas, Missouri, and Kentucky, and an annual thing in Georgia (think Superbowl 1998, that year January was rather bad. Not to mention when I got frostbite in a snow storm in march of 1993 at Ft Benning GA).

Another thing to keep in mind is that as much as we want historical accuracy, I do not beleive it is necessary to have a precision weather simulation as part of the game. Yes, it does need to be realistic and modeled on the weather patterns as experienced in the 1860s, but making it match the current weather based on a few observations is not a good idea IMO.

Tweak it as we see systemic problems is an obvious solution. But also remember, weather has a tendency to be erratic and there are plenty examples of "bizzare" weather that defy forecast or detailed modeling. If it was that easy, the weatherman would be more accurate.

[mikee64]

I agree with denisonh's previous post. I have spent my entire life (42 years) living in Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia and Louisiana. Sleet and freezing rain are definite annual occurrences in all these states. I lived through an 18" blizzard in GA in late March 1993 that shut down much of the state for almost a week. (I personally had the pleasure of enjoying 4 days with no electricity.)

And lets factor in the general conditions of the 1860's - travel by foot or horse over mostly dirt roads, no electricity, no running water, etc.

This is not to say there isn't still some tweaking needed. But overall I would much rather have the weather err on the side of being too severe as opposed to overly mild. Others have commented that things happen too fast in the game and we tend to push our little computer simulated people around in a game much more so than would happen in real life, just because we can ignore their hardships. IMO the "slowing down" of the campaigning due to weather in the current model feels about right.

[gbs]

Allow me to agree with Doomwalker. Forget about freezing rains. They very rarely happen in March and when they do it is gone within 24 hours. It almost never happens in April. Granted I have only lived in Georgia, Alabama and South Cartolina but those are the areas I refer to as having unrealistic weather patterns. I wear shorts to the Masters for goodness sake. Keep in mind that we are playing 15 day turns. Does the weather depect a snapshot of the weather on that 15th day or does it represent average weather for the whole 15 day period?
I don't care what the graphics look like. What I feel is unrealistic is unit damage caused by "harsh weather" in Mobile in late March. That has to go if the desired effect is realism. JMHO.

[denisonh]

Allow me to agree with Doomwalker. Forget about freezing rains. They very rarely happen in March and when they do it is gone within 24 hours. It almost never in April. Granted I have only lived in Georgia, Alabama and South Cartolina but those are the areas I refer to as having unrealistic weather patterns. I wear shorts to the Masters for goodness sake. Keep in mind that we are playing 15 day turns. Does the weather depect a snapshot of the weather on that 15th day or does it represent average weather for the whole 15 day period?
I don't care what the graphics look like. What I feel is unrealistic is unit damage caused by "harsh weather" in Mobile in late March. That has to go if the desired effect is realism. JMHO.

I do not disagree that April should be less subject to freezing weather, although the heavy rains on unpaved roads and on a moving Army can be problematic.

And it does not take 2 weeks of bad weather to inflict casualties. In March 1993, we lost 1/3 of the US Army Ranger School class on the 14 mile road march to Cp Darby at Ft Benning to frosbite and Hypothermia. Over a period of 24 hours, we lost 33% with significantly reduced effectiveness for the "frozen chosen" that made it. And keep in mind, the Armies of the Civil War period did not have a HUMMWV trailing the column picking up the stragglers.

Effects of weather (freezing rain, cold rain, constant rain) can significantly effect mobility, sanitation, and unit morale and overall effectiveness. The effects can be severe in enough over a couple of days to impact more than a week.

[gbs]

I don't have any specific examples but I just think that abstracted damage due to harsh weather in the deep south states in Spring and early fall happens way to often. But, like i said earlier, if nothing changes I will still play as often as i can.

[jimwinsor]

I think this is the key consideration to keep in mind: severe cold weather over time, so as to affect unit cohesion and health of units camped in the open.

Snow on the ground means 14 days where the thermometer drops well below freezing every night...and quite possibly most days too.

One day or two, during a two week period, of "freezing rain" does not sound to me like it should have the same relative impact. You got 12-13 days in which to dry yourself out, warm yourself up.

[denisonh]

I think this is the key consideration to keep in mind: severe cold weather over time, so as to affect unit cohesion and health of units camped in the open.

Snow on the ground means 14 days where the thermometer drops well below freezing every night...and quite possibly most days too.

One day or two, during a two week period, of "freezing rain" does not sound to me like it should have the same relative impact. You got 12-13 days in which to dry yourself out, warm yourself up.

It really isn't that easy. Both as an Infantry officer and my extensive backpacking experience, I have found that being wet and cold for 3 straight days can be a real issue. Even after it rains, it is hard to get anything dry (especially if you are moving during the day), and the dampness, particularly with footgear, can lead to major problems. Given that I have used equipment far superior to what was available at the time seems to indicate it may have been just that more difficult for troops in the CIvil War. Rmember, more troops were lost as non battle casualties than battle casualties.

One day may not effect 14 days, but several days combined with low daytime temperatures and even lower nighttime temperatures can be very difficult. After two solid days of rain, try lighting a fire. It is real bitch.

I am just making the point it does not have to be freezing rain, snowing, sleeting for 14 straight days to have a negative impact on the unit effectiveness for 14 days.

[veji1]

I think the whole issue here is that you should have lot less Snow and blizzard in the south, hardly ever, but a boatload of Mud and Rain... I would be fine if on a 4 months frame (dec-mar) I had out of 8 turns : 6 mud-1 snow-1 fair. I think that would be perfect. Now you might want to make mud and rain weather harsher in terms of Hits to the units, but at least make it replace snow so we have less of this ridiculous 4 months russian winter in florida..

[aryaman]

I think we have two different problems
1) Climate model. I think that is pure chrome, this is not a climate simulation.
2) Effect on units of winter time. This is the relevant point from the game perspective, and I think the effect is rather too mild in the game, before the use of motor vehicles winter meant a paralization of war operations because the lack of green fodder for drawing horses, that is why in the ACW operations were so dependant of railway supply.

[mikee64]

Good point aryaman. denisonh also continues to make the same points I am trying to make but in a much more efficient manner; the personal experiences of having suffered through some of this stuff are very insightful.

It also appears folks are "seeing" the weather/climate in two very different ways:
1. Some are looking at the map, seeing the white regions, and immediately thinking "wait it can't snow there during that month". (Which is a pefectly good reaction since it does say "snow". )
2. Others look at the weather as a more abstract game function; frex I look at a white region and don't think "Snow" but rather "hmm ops will be very limited here this turn."

As usual the best interpretation is probably somewhere in the middle; thus the reason most of us are agreeing some tweaking may still be in order. And as someone else said, we all get to happily continue playing while we discuss these things - thats the best part!

[Doomwalker]

My thing is in the game pictured above. All of Texas and the Indian Territory had snow for numerous turns; yet Kansas never got any for the entire winter, nor did several other Union states. Which just allowed me to keep moveing units freely without care. I would expect that in the south in the winter before up north.

Florida had snow as well, umm does it ever snow in Florida? The olny reason I even caught this was I was looking for where I wanted to open new fronts at, and the Jacksonville region was snow covered. I got a good chuckle out of that.

I wouldn't have a care in the world of what the graphics were doing if I wasn't loseing 30-40 winter hits a turn in some of my key armies, be they inside or out.



Edit: Yeah I am one which sees the snow and first says "It doesn't snow there", then "OK, where else can I make an offensive, while this one thaws?".

[gbs]

Mikee, denisohn and Aryaman. With all due respect, I don't think you get my point. I'm not saying that cold weather shouldn't have a damaging effect. Sure it does. My point is when and where it does in this game. I don't mind severe cold even in Georgia in January and February. Not in April though. And, come on guys, Snow and Freezes in the Florida panhandle is just silly. The chance of having snow in April in the deep south states should be highly rare.

[mikee64]

gbs and Doom: points taken, and I agree these are examples that could be looked into for change.

[denisonh]

Mikee, denisohn and Aryaman. With all due respect, I don't think you get my point. I'm not saying that cold weather shouldn't have a damaging effect. Sure it does. My point is when and where it does in this game. I don't mind severe cold even in Georgia in January and February. Not in April though. And, come on guys, Snow and Freezes in the Florida panhandle is just silly. The chance of having snow in April in the deep south states should be highly rare.

To quote myself:
I do not disagree that April should be less subject to freezing weather

I am neither an advocate for "no change". If it is "ahistorical", then lets by all means change it. I am simply do not want to see the weather "overcorrected" or the use on modern weather patterns rather than historical.

35 degrees farenheit in the Florida swamps ain't exactly a picnic, and combined with rain can be problematic on conducting military operations. Near freezing can be as bad, if not worse, than snow. The point is just because it ain't snowing, doesn't mean it ain't winter and damned difficult to operate in the conditions.

[gbs]

Agreed.

[tagwyn]

Hocus: Leave it the way it is. Good job againj. T

[Walloc]

IMO the best judge of how weather affected operation is history.

Was Grants TN operations, taking Fort Henry, Fort Donalson in start feb 62 affected by weather?
These operations continued through out feb 62 in effect ending in april 62
Same time there was operations in MO in start march 62.

Im no expert on weather, i cant say what 0,8 C would alter weather patterns, i cant say if 1860es was particular harsh winters, i cant say if 62 was a year that was off, but all these are academic questions.

What i can say is TN that isnt deep south was apprently not affected worse weather wise than it could facilitating operations in Feb 62. MO in start march. I havent read any that those operations was severly affected by weather.

When i play i can find single turns that is some times freeze free but nothing sustained until april, facilitating operations.
If im to compare those, there things doable in RL that would seemly have sever penalties to if done in game atm.
Is there a general trend look at all 4 years that operations started later than Feb, yes.
Again operations in VA was also happening in dec 62. Fredericksburg being 13 dec and there are CSA operations in TN around new year 62/63.
How much weight u wana give these example but it certainly isnt impossible to find examples of operations taking place in periode's where i as of now see severe weather penaties. Which isnt deep south. U cant argue that.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Jabberwock]

I lived in various parts of eastern NC for 12 years. I was amazed at the difference in weather patterns you could see by travelling 75 miles. In the area of little Washington, there was maybe a 25% chance of winter weather during any two week period between December and February. Near Wilmington, we would only see snow or a hard freeze once a year.
You probably don't want to get into that kind of detail for this game, but it should give you a general idea. Winter affects far too extensive an area, for a greater part of the year than it should. I also agree, though, with another post I saw on this thread. The effects of weather where it should be happening are not significant enough.

[Johnny Canuck]

If I may suggest at least one change, IMHO there should be no snow anywhere on the map in May (which I've seen as far south as Texas).

Beyond that, there does seem to be an 'inbalance' in the west, whereby Texas/Arkansas/Missouri seem much more prone to snow than states to the north, which does not seem to make much sense to me. I'm not saying that Texas/Arkansas/Missouri should never have snow, but simply that I think that, in general, northern states should be more prone than southern states.

[tc237]

Can we change the weather zones?
There are 16 zones now, can we break those down further?

Is there a Weather Zone overlay or map?

I'm trying to make one by shading the individual regions by hand. It is very tedious work. Won't be able to finish it this weekend.

If someone has a weather zone map it might help us visualize exactly what areas need adjusted.
And can be used as a guide for correcting or creating new zones.

[gbs]

I thought that the missing "swamp - snow" graphic was fixed with one of the patches. I'm playing 1.04 and it is still missing.

Also. In my current game, snow on the Mississippi,all the way down into the Lousiana bayou. Thats where I noticed the graphic missing.

Also, on the humorous side, there is currently a BLIZZARD in St. Augustine and New Smyrna beach in Florida. I bet that caught the vacationers by surprise.

[Doomwalker]

Yup, that is the area I was speaking of. Here I am scanning the coast to land some units and it is snowing on the coast of Florida. I got a good laugh out of that.

[gbs]

I hope this thread stays alive long enough for Pocus, Phil or someone to take notice. Just now (early March) I want to ship a detatchment to Memphis from N.O. by water. I notice that it will take 53 days . Checking again I find that the mighty Mississippi is FROZEN all the way down to Grand Confluent just south of Natchez. I'm sure the Mississippi has frozen before but probably in Minnisota where you can jump across it. Shades of Washington crossing the Delaware . I also have rivers frozen in south Alabama near Montgomery.

[Pocus]

we need a concertation about that, with a beta willing to agregate reports to be sure we are not changing things for nothing.

[Spruce]

I think the weather is not at the point yet. I saw frozen beaches in Florida. I think there are crocodiles living there and not penguins.

By the way - the pic for the frozen beach (or was it swamp ?) is broken.