limit in # of divisions and replacements..

[veji1]

The more I play the more I question the limits in the number of divisions a player can have ( 48 for Union and 24 for CSA ) and the problem I can relate it to : replacements. bear in mind I played the CSA only so I don't know how it plays out for the USA.

I think players shouldn't be limited in the numbers of divisions they can have provided they have a 1* general around : in the next big patch where Div HQs are gone, it will be simpler to make divisions. the main problem is their strength, as the CSA you have divisions in the 500 av once full, and when they get more experience, they can reach 600-650 (!!!). The problem here is the speed to which they replenish themselves : Not that replacements are too available or too cheap, but they just fill in the divisions too fast. You need to have a major series of battle to exhaust your replacement pool, and once you replenish it and send your divs to a depot, woof, in 1-2 turns they are full again.

What I would like to see is slower replacements : a divisions that has lost 50 % of its number should take 4 months to replenish in a depot well supplied, say a 4 to 7% replacement rate per turn (roll). In the field, the replacement rate should be say 2% when you are well supplied.

I find myself in a situation in the game where I campaign rotating brigades in and out of the divisions to send them back to the depot (in very active phases, otherwise I just stay put for a turn in a depot and the div is refilled), so as to keep my divs at theire max AV, because I am so short on them... Therefore except in case of major disaster, I don't get much of a wear and tear effect on my army.

Now say I can have as many divs as I have 1* leaders. First in terms of operations it doesn't change much in the sense that to have a div (4cp) operate as an independant force with minimum penalties, you'd still need two 1* in command (1 in the div and the other beside so that they generate the 4cp you need), and basically the limitating factor in the number ( and their efficiency ) of independant divs you can have roaming around is the number of 1* leaders.

Now in an army the limitating factor will be the number of corps you will be able to build, ie the number of 2* you have. So the actual number of leaders, 1, 2 or 3* becomes the natural threshold on div/corps/army building... No need to imposer artificial limitations...

If you couple that with serverly slowed remplacement rate ( at least for the CSA ), then you have a situation in which you have more divisions, but they loose strenght progressively during the fighting season... with the new weather model meaning the fighting season will last 8-9 months instead of the 6 montsh we currently have, the wearing down effect will be felt more..

I would like to be able to have an ANV with divisions going from 500 in late march to 200 at the end of the summer...

Let the losses and trickle of replacement + the leader/command structure impose the limits in the numbers of divisions/corps/armies a player can have, no need to have limitations : the Union will have way more divisions than the CSA eventually, and as long as players are willing to spend leaders to build divs, they should be able to.

This gives more flexibility to the player as well to emulate other things : for example boot camp !!! As the CSA I would love to be able put leaders like Taylor or Hardee in charge of divisions in depot cities behind the frontlines to train the new recruits faster before dispatching them to front units. in game terms their units would be divs, but for the player they would actually be advanced boot camps...

I sincerely think that the division threshold could take care of itself if left to the player/AI with a balanced number of leaders around... If we had 100s of leaders around, then I would understand the fixed limit, but with the limited amount of leaders available I think we could give it a try.

My 2 cents..

[caranorn]

I like both these ideas, though I think the replacement rate might require some testing. I'd definitely like to see weaker divisions on both sides, and find the current 24/48 Force Pool limits unnecessarily limiting. Both ideas combined could indeed work.

Though I'm also in favour of only the senior leader in a stack determining Command Points (necessarily raising leader Command Capacities a bit, maybe by 50%), I don't like the notion of 4 1* Generals combining to get 8 Command and lead two divisions as easily as 1 2* Corps.

[veji1]

Well the thing is if they combine to lead a stack of 2 divs, it will be as an independant command, not as a corps of an army, so there is still a penalty.

Actually I have a question about modding : can we the players take away the limit in divisions building and alter the replacement rate to run some tests and see how it plays out ?

[caranorn]

I'm pretty certain the Force Pool limits for Divisions in the current system could be modded away (just raise the Force Pool to an unlikely level), whether that will be possible once the Division HQ's as such are removed is another question. Concerning the replacements I don't know, but expect it would also be possible. So far I've only modded AACW minimally, so don't know most of the files yet.

[veji1]

I will try to do something tonight (wife permitting...) to see what effects this could have.

[Pocus]

the recover rate is in the structures files and the number of divisions are in the setup files. See the modding forum for further discussion on that.

[veji1]

great thanks, once the big patch removing the HQs is gone I will give it a try. thanks.

[tremy]

I thought your original post really interesting Veji1. please would you post the results from any tests ?

[pasternakski]

Oh, brother. How much further wrong is this all going to go?

Well, mod away, boys, I hope you all enjoy your cybercivilwar adventure on Planet X.

I'm done here.

[runyan99]

cybercivilwar adventure on Planet X.

Sadly, an oft neglected topic when it comes to wargaming.

[Stonewall]

If you want to increase the number of HQ units, its a relatively easy process, depending on the scenario you are playing. If you are playing the April 1861 campaign, all the reinforcements are handled in the scenario event file. There are 3 major reinforcement events that fire for each side. These are full of lists of units and how much the forcepool increases. They fire in early May, early June, and early July of 1861. If you want to edit these, there are 6 entries that CAN be edited, although one only NEEDS to edit one per side if you're not worried about evenly distributing the forcepool increases over a 6 turn period.

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $CSA

SelectFaction = $CSA
StartEvent = evt_nam_CSA_InitialForcePoolMay61|1|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  FixedDate = 1861/05/01

Actions
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde1VA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde2TN;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde3NC;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde3MS;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde3LA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde3TX;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde3AR;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde4GA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde4AL;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde5SC;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde5MS;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde6TN;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde7VA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde7AL;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde7TX;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8VA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8NC;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8SC;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8GA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8TN;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8AR;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde8MO;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde9FL;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde9AL;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde9LA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bde10LA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Mar;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Shp1NC;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Shp1SC;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Shp1GA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Shp1MS;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Shp1LA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Shp1AR;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav1SC;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav1GA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav1TN;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav1AL;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav1TX;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav1MO;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav3VA;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav3NC;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav3MS;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav3LA;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Cav3AR;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art0VA;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art0NC;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art0MS;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art0LA;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art0AR;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art1SC;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art1LA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art1TX;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art2NC;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art2GA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art2AL;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art2LA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art2TX;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art3NC;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art3TN;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art3MS;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art3AR;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art3MO;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art4VA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art4TN;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art5VA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Art5AL;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_SieVA;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_SieAL;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_SieMO;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_CoaVA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_CoaGA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_CoaAL;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Hq1;6 [color="Red"](Divisional HQ)[/color]
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Hq2;1 [color="Red"](Army HQ)[/color]
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sig;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Med;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Eng;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Nvg;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1VA;6
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1NC;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1SC;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1GA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1TN;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1AL;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1MS;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1LA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1TX;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1AR;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Sup1MO;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bat1SW;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bat1SE;6
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Bat1DS;6
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_StFMA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_StFDS;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_StFSE;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_StFSW;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_FrgMA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_FrgSE;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_FrgSE;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_FrgSW;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_BrgMA;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_BrgDS;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_BrgSE;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_BrgSW;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_TraMA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_TraDS;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_TraSE;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_TraSW;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_GbtMA;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_GbtDS;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_GbtSE;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_GbtSW;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1AL;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1AR;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1FL;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1GA;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1KY;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1LA;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1MS;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1MO;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1NC;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1SC;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1TN;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1TX;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Reb1VA;6
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_CSA_Ran;3
  ChangeWSUPool = 10
  ChangeConscriptPool = 50
  ChangeMoneyPool = 75
  ChangeRailPool = 15
  ChangeRiverPool = 5

EndEvent

I've marked in red, the entries that you would need to change. HQ1 is the divisional hq units and for the early May turn, the CSA gets 6 new hq units to the forcepool. Simply change this number to 60 or 500 or whatever you want it to be. If you want to evenly distribute the new additions, simply scrolling through the file will show you the other forcepool reinforcement sections.

Make sure you play fair and give the ai side additional units as well. The CSA is first in the scenario event file and the USA comes second, so keep scrolling to find Federal forcepool events.

In the event one is playing the July 1861 campaign or later, the proper files for editing are located in the AACW/gamedata/units folder. There are 2 units, 90CSADivision.uni and 300USADivision.uni.

Open these files in a text editor such as notepad and it will look like this:

Code: Select all

UID = 300
NationTag = USA
Name = Division
Alias = uni_USA_Hq1
ForcePool = 48 [color="Red"](This is how many of this type of unit is in the forcepool)[/color]
ShortName = Division HQ
Text = $uni_txt_USA_Divisional HQ
Kind = $Land
Color = $colUSARegular
ModelType0 = $mdl_USA_Hq1|1
FamilyType0 = $famHQDiv|1
FamilyType1 = $famLeader|1
CmdCost = 4
Pillage = 0
RaiseRule = $recCap
Area = $AllStates
EDIT: Last line of file deleted for space saving purposes.


I have marked in red the appropriate line that needs to be changed to add more HQ units to the forcepool. Simply change this number to whatever number of HQ units you deem to be appropriate. I use 60 and 75 for the CSA and USA, respectively.

[Hidde]

If I understand you correctly I only have to change the number with the the 1861/05/01 event for CSA and US respectively?
What is different if I don't change the other dates compared to if I do? (question make sense?).
There is also a INC-file in the Includes map called EarlyForcePool. That have no impact on this?
I have no modding skill and need very precis instructions to do this sort of thing. Sorry

[veji1]

Thanks Stonewall, what are the results so far ?

Pasternalski, I perfectly understand your reservations about this kind of change and the adverse effect they could have on the game as a simulation. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather keep the Div Hqs ( That's what I voted for in the poll ) but increase there pool. Since the AI can't handle them properly they are goners... this just something we have to play with, or should I say without.

Anyway, I forgot to count the leaders one has as the CSa during the game, but If I remember correctly, the pool is quite limited, specially when it comes to 2* generals, the ones that multiply the strength of your army by allowing mutual support between the same corps of an army...

I understand that seeing 50 CSA division wandering around can be quite shocking... but my point is to see what we could do by having more divs but a way slower replacement rate... I want to be able to have flexibility and emulate the wear and tear of war on units.So far in the game my units are either almost perfectly fine or nearly dead...

This is an experiment of course.. And I am not asking AGEOD to do anything, It is an idea I think we players could try out, and if it works the way I think it could, than it might be an interesting setting.

Wife permitting I will again try to mod something tonight based on Pocus's and Stonewall's advice.

[Stonewall]

If I understand you correctly I only have to change the number with the the 1861/05/01 event for CSA and US respectively?
What is different if I don't change the other dates compared to if I do? (question make sense?).
There is also a INC-file in the Includes map called EarlyForcePool. That have no impact on this?
I have no modding skill and need very precis instructions to do this sort of thing. Sorry

The .inc file is of no importance. If you are playing the April 1861 campaign, all you need to do is edit the April 1861 event file as I described above. You only need to edit one date. CSA gets 6 HQ in May, 6 in June and 12 in July. If you want to make them have 48 HQ units, all you need to do is increase May to 30, and the other 18 will be added on schedule.

[Stonewall]

Thanks Stonewall, what are the results so far ?

I've enjoyed the results. I combine my additional HQ units along with adding a HQ unit to every ai general that is generated via event. So, the USA 61 generals pool comes with 2 hq units. I did this to try and make the ai have HQ units to use in a stack with a general to command it. AI had trouble getting HQ units out west, so Halleck gets 3 HQ units, etc. Its made the ai armies much tougher when they utilize the HQ units. However, I'm still seeing stacks of 100 units with 10 empty HQ units and 5 unassigned leaders. I don't understand why, but every so often, I'll finish my turn, and reload as the ai in order to organize their armies prior to them moving.

[veji1]

What are the results so far for you Stonewall ? have you tried that with the AI or in PBEM as well ?

[Pocus]

.inc are only used when a scenario is created from a script, so you don't have to modify them if you are editing existing scenarios or events.

The number of units allowed in a force pool is either handled at start from the setup, or by additions by events. So in the 1862+ scenarios, both side start with the right number of HQ, so this is in the setup (the .scn file). In the 1861 campaign, the factions have force pool additions, so this is in the events files (.sct, in the events folder).

Stonewall: editing the .uni file (UID = 300) won't do anything here, the number is not used during a scenario.

[Hidde]

Stonewall and Pocus, thanks for your answers.
I find this idea very intruiging and the one about recovery rate even more so. Big battles shouldn't come about easy and
ought to have significant conseqeunses. I haven't had the chance to play very much so far, maybe I should try vanila a bit more before experimenting like this
If anyone try this, please give us your thoughts.

[Spruce]

hm, I agree that something is feeling wrong. If you look at brigade size level (for example CSA) you'll see that the figures in the game are exagerated compared to the historical reality.

F.e. in the game - there a few "super brigades" of more then 4000 soldiers, divisions can be 12.000 soldiers or more.

If you look at second Manassas OOB - IIRC one of the biggest brigades as one of Hoods division - counting 2600 soldiers. Where average division size was 6000 - the biggest division (AP. Hils counted 9000).

My proposal would be to replenish the first half of brigade very fast - (or as fast as today), then a quarter would be replenished at halved rate and a 1/16 at a quartered rate.

So f.e. Hoods division is down to 2000 (from 8000) - the division is filled to 4000 at normal speed - then filled to 6000 at halved speed - and filled to 8000 at quartered speed.

This means that divisions won't disintegrate too fast (fast reinforcment to half size) - but having the super brigades will be far more difficult as divisions in battle-intense theathers will normally stay around 50-75 % of their initial rating.

Also take note that I don't like the destruction of units - during my last game I assaulted Harpers Ferry and I lost 2 corps - meaning about 33% of my max. capacity of the ANV. I don't mind taking high casualties in battles, but such a devastating effect on units is really staggering. They couldn't have been surrenders -and it's way too drastical for the CSA ...

The CSA has enough headaches with filling up its ranks, it's not really nice to decimate the available units in the game.

[Stonewall]

What are the results so far for you Stonewall ? have you tried that with the AI or in PBEM as well ?

We play modded game in my PBEM "club" as well. It seems to work well. I never really played PBEM without the changes, so I really have nothing to compare it to. We also have our own house rules to prevent gamey tactics.

[veji1]

Hi,

I have tried to mod the number of divisions the CSA and USA have in the July 1862 scenario (to 60 and 100), since I have played enough with the1861 scenarios allready. I have altered the 90CSAdiv... and 300CSAdiv... in the UNit folder, I have modded the earlypoolforce.inc, but I still get 17 on maps CSA div HQs and 11 in the pool.

Does anyone know how can I do that ?

[Stonewall]

Thats gonna be a problem. As Pocus stated, the only way to add more HQ units in the non-April 1861 campaigns is to actually modify the campaign file itself. I'ver looked in there for the HQ portion and can not find it.

That said, all you really need to do is open the event file for the A1861 campaign and cut and paste the first CSA and USA reinforcement pool events and put them in the 1862 file. Then change the name of the event, the firing dates and delete all the forcepool additions not related to the HQ units. This will work similarly to how it works with the A1861 campaign.

I wish I understood how to use the .csv splitter, but alas, I can't figure it out, even with Primispirit's excellent procedures.

[veji1]

Hmmm... Did you try it yourself ? I guess I'll give it a go tonight and i'll tell you what happened... But this frustrating. As you said I went through the 1862 scenario file and couldn't find it, so I went to the script and found a reference to the earlyforcepool.inc but that's it.

If I add an event, isn't is suppose to have an ID, insert itself in a chain, etc.. All complicated things that I don't know If I'll be able to do...

[Montbrun]

I have modded the HQ numbers in the event files for the July 1861, and 1862 scenarios, giving the South 36 Divisional HQs, and the Union 64. I like how it works - it's still limiting (numbers, and you still have to buy them), but gives you a little more flexibility.

[veji1]

How did you do that ? Just copied the 1861 events and added them with changed dates to the other scenarios ? no other complicated manipulation ?

[Pocus]

Hmmm... Did you try it yourself ? I guess I'll give it a go tonight and i'll tell you what happened... But this frustrating. As you said I went through the 1862 scenario file and couldn't find it, so I went to the script and found a reference to the earlyforcepool.inc but that's it.

If I add an event, isn't is suppose to have an ID, insert itself in a chain, etc.. All complicated things that I don't know If I'll be able to do...

No, the ID is the text depicting it, no cross-linked numerical references somewhere...

The thing to understand is that some files are used only when the SCN file is created by the script, and some files are read each turns. As you guess, the files read each turns are the events. So the simple way is to do as Stonewall says: create an event (paste and copy one, change the title) and add you little units there.

[veji1]

Thanks for the tip, Hopefully it will work.