Optimal division / corps / army formation.

[pob303]

Before Gray Fox's and Mickey 3D's superb pbem and AAR, I know there was some discussion on what the optimal set up was for division, corps and armies.

I believe and correct me if I am wrong, that the traditional view is that a division should have 3 or 4 artillery elements and 1 or 2 cav with the remainder made up of infantry of various types. Whereas GF was proposing that 4 heavy infantry divisions in a corp, with artillery independent of the division and part or the corps command structure was the way to go due to frontage.

Did the resulting pbem and AARs mentioned above prove either theory to be the optimal division / corp structure?

[VigaBrand]

It depends on Leaders and terrain!
In some terrain you can't use more than 4 support elements, so if you have divisions there, you didn't need so much art.
There is no "optimal" division!
A Cav divisions works very well in texas!

[Gray Fox]

I believe that too many other factors apply (cohesion, leader, terrain, etc.) for me to draw a definitive conclusion. The rules are vague at best and are mostly drawn from AACW.

Supposedly, after a battle the side that withdraws will accrue pursuit damage. If you have more cavalry than your opponent, then you either screen your withdrawal and receive less damage or pierce their screen and cause additional damage. Divisions are the basic combat unit so more Division cavalry would seem to be a good idea.

Artillery loose in the stack (Corps/Army) can fire independently of a Division, so it would cause additional damage to units other than the one the Division artillery would fire at. Also, a Division that withdraws takes its artillery with it and the guns don't fire anymore. So Corps artillery seems like a good idea.

I researched the 4 artillery to a Division idea. The original post is based soley on the reasoning that 4 artillery at stack level cost as many Command Points as a Division, so why not put them in a Division and get extra men as well. That was the whole argument.

[pgr]

As you noted when you started the thread, the "perfect" division has been debated up and down.

You pretty much have the consensus, between 10-12 inf types, 2-3 arty, and 1 or 2 cav. The one thing you missed was a sharpshooter element. Most people insist that all divisions have 1 for the initiative bonus. The other one to think of is a marine or sailor unit, if you plan on crossing rivers and doing landings.

[ohms_law]

One thing to keep in mind here is that a typical Corps will provide 18 command points. That should allow you to stack 4 divisions and 2 1cp units, of which artillery would make an excellent choice. Of course, then you could get into adding support units, which could allow you to add up to a whole other division.

as for the divisions themselves, there are a few loose "rules" to abide by. Try not to double stack elite units into single divisions. You should have a sharpshooter with each divisions, if possible, for the added detection bonus. At least 1 cavalry regiment is advisable. Other than that, fill the divisions with as many infantry and artillery units as possible.

[pob303]

Thanks everyone. That helps in knowing what I need to work towards. I need to get more organised early in the game especially playing as the Confederates. I have too many divisions with more than one sharpshooter element due to the limitation of what I can build.

In my latest attempt I am building a cav corps for some deep raiding and destruction. Not that I think it will that effective against a Union Athena at the hardest setting but might be a useful tactic when I try a pbem.

Has anyone had a lot of success with this against a human player? Do the same rules for horse artillery still apply as per normal artillery when forming a cav division?

[pgr]

Thanks everyone. That helps in knowing what I need to work towards. I need to get more organised early in the game especially playing as the Confederates. I have too many divisions with more than one sharpshooter element due to the limitation of what I can build.

In my latest attempt I am building a cav corps for some deep raiding and destruction. Not that I think it will that effective against a Union Athena at the hardest setting but might be a useful tactic when I try a pbem.

Has anyone had a lot of success with this against a human player? Do the same rules for horse artillery still apply as per normal artillery when forming a cav division?

I suppose there is nothing wrong with having multiple sharpshooters in a division (except that there aren't too many to go around) they have pretty nice base stats. A sharpshooter division might be an interesting experiment.

For the cav corps, it can be done to great effect...esp if a guy like Forrest is in command. Integrate some mounted partisans in the division, and no depot will be safe!

[Merlin]

I invariably end up with my armies loosely organized as follows:

East
Division: 12-13 INF, 2 CAV, 1 SS, and 1-2 ART
Corps: 2-3 Div, 5-15 ART, 2-3 SUP, and 1 HOS/1 SIG/1 ENG/1 PON or 1 PON/1 ENG/1 ASG if I can.
Army: 4-8 Corps, 1 INF Div, 1 CAV Div, 2 SUP, and however many other useful units I can find on that front.

West
Division: 9-10 INF, 4-5 CAV, 1 SS, and 1-2 ART
Corps: 2 Div, 6-10 ART, 1-2 SUP, and support unit composition similar to the East.
Army: 2-6 Corps, 1 CAV Div, 1 SUP, and whatever ART and support units I can muster.

Trans-Mississippi
Division: Same as West.
Corps: 1-2 Div, 4-6 ART, 1-2 SUP, and whatever support I can find.
Army: 2-3 Corps, 1 CAV Div, 1 SUP, and whatever ART and support I can find.

Armies in the Southwest or Southeast tend to look like the Trans-Mississippi armies if they are formed. Corps and army composition often change if I play CSA, are entirely dependent on the number of 2 stars I can create in '61 and '62, and fewer 2 stars means more divisions in the armies themselves. The number of CAV divisions will often fluctuate rapidly as well, mostly due to raiding and scouting, and I've created powerful CAV corps as the CSA. It all depends on what's available for recruiting where, what my plans and the plans of my opponent are, and who is available to form armies.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Integrate some mounted partisans in the division, and no depot will be safe!

Why pgr, you gamey devil you!

For newer players following this thread:

The partisans have awesome supply blocking ability (no enemy supply can pass in their region) automatically pillage enemy territory when they transit a region, automatically destroy unguarded enemy depots in regions they pass through (not that there are many, but I just took out an unguarded one at Ft. Henry in the Shiloh scenario this way, and it was SWEET!) and are the prereq for the Partisan Raid and Partisan Ambush cards which are among the most effective of all RGDs. They are the weakest unit in the game though: they are almost guaranteed to be killed in any battle that they are not combined into a division and get found by enemy cavalry pretty easily when on their own. Placed into a cav division they are WAY more survivable and "pass" all their special abilities up to the division, making a cav division into a super-raider, able to take out depots and destroy rails in a single bound!

As far as I know, however, this was not how they were actually used historically (as elements of cavalry divisions) though someone who knows more should weigh in. I do it anyway, if I don't they get killed before I get to play with any of their cool special abilities.

[ArmChairGeneral]

On topic:

As the CSA I find that I often use my Armies as large front line fighting stacks rather than as reserves. We are short on 2*s to make Corps out of, and high strat Army commanders get bonus CPs in their stack allowing me to squeeze in five or even six divisions into a mega stack that MTSGs with a high percentage.

[Merlin]

No, nobody actually did that in the real war.

They can actually survive very well on their own when paired with someone like Forrest, Jo Shelby, or Morgan.

[ArmChairGeneral]

They can actually survive very well on their own when paired with someone like Forrest, Jo Shelby, or Morgan.

I will have to try this. I will probably still put them in cav divisions because they are so much fun, but nice to know this in case one wanted to avoid the practice as a HR.

[Damius]

First Ageod game and first Grand Campaign(july start as CSA) for me , so don't shoot me.

My divisions have 3-4 ART, 1-2 CAV, (most have) 1 SS and the rest INF. It can vary here and there, but that's the general buildup.

I'm using 3 cav divisions with Stand Watie, Forrest and Stuart. In that order from the West to the East, although Forrest can be promoted now. All of them have 3-4 horse arty, not sure if that's the best way to use them? But it seems to work pretty well.

Mounted Partisans do they spawn in the regiments that pop up on the map over time? Because the RGD partisan card is not mounted I believe.

I also have a big Army stack in the east with 6 divs at the front, couldn't find a decent 2* and I think I turtled too much, because almost none are up for promotion.

Also learning the map of the US on the fly, I had a general understanding of the layout, but all the details were almost nonexistent except for the bigger cities.

[ohms_law]

You have to purchase mounted partisans. They work the same as the unmounted ones, including how they take advantage of the partisan card; they just have different stats.

[Skibear]

Division/corps considerations:
Artillery - its all about terrain. 4 batteries will deploy and fire in the open, 3 will fire in woods and hills, 2 will fire in swamps and mountains. Surplus batteries will not fire each round. Of course as you move about through different terrain you might not want to keep shuffling numbers, but useful to plan for a specific march/attack. Batteries held loose at corps and army level fire in support of a division. I thought a maximum of 4 can be used here too, but I have seen folks with much much more so that might need confirmation.
Cavalry - its mostly important what the total level of cavalry is in the overall stack/corps. So long as you have at least 4 regiments then you will perform good recon on adjacent regions. Less and your recon will be less effective. More than 4 has an impact on pursuit at the end of battles as mentioned above. For this the more the better. But each division doesnt necessarily need any cav. I tend to have 2 per div to pair up for 4 or more in the stack, unless its a single division operating alone which will likely then have 4. But if you had all your cav in a single cavalry division and none in any of the others in the stack this should be fine I believe. Difficult to achieve usually with a lot of brigades have intigrated cav regts, plus you will often want cav divisions to operate independent without leaving your corps without recon...

[Mickey3D]

The partisans have awesome supply blocking ability (no enemy supply can pass in their region)

Really powerful, I was not aware of this ability. Is it somewhere in the manual or did I miss some information bubble ?

[Mickey3D]

But each division doesnt necessarily need any cav

It is difficult to build division without cav because of the composition of brigades you buy : they often contain a cav element (e.g. 2 inf + 1 cav; 3 inf + 1 cav + 1 art, ...)

[Skibear]

Exactly, thats what I said about brigades with integrated cav regts. Cavalry, especially late cav fights too so no real need in normal circumstances to try to exclude all cav from a division. But equally you don't need to make sure each division has cavalry, so long as it is present somewhere in the stack totals.

[Gray Fox]

The problem with making a Union cavalry Division is that almost all of the Union cavalry (and cav artillery) come in one element regiments. You can only attach 15 sub-units to a leader forming a Division. So an all-cavalry Division will only have 15 elements, not the usual 17 elements possible with larger mixed brigades in a combined arms Division led by a commander.

As to partisan survivability, some of the RGD cards add to a unit's hide value, making these guys a little more stealthy without risking a leader.

[ArmChairGeneral]

[Edit: referring to Partisans automatically blocking supply transit in their region:]

Really powerful, I was not aware of this ability. Is it somewhere in the manual or did I miss some information bubble ?

I saw it somewhere in a thread about supplies, posted by someone I considered reliable, though I can't remember where or who. This could use confirmation.

It actually isn't that powerful of an ability anyway, though it sounds cool. If the supplies are coming over land (not by rail) the supply algorithm can usually path through adjacent regions without any fuss. It is more effective on a rail line, possibly breaking a depot-depot link or cutting off a formation that is at the long end of the 5 rail-region limit from its depot. But even this has mitigating factors. First, enemy troops tend to travel along rails (especially the AI who shuffles troops for no apparent reason every turn) so the Partisans will get spotted and engaged a lot if they sit on rails just to block supply. Second, if you stack them with some cavalry so they can survive these types of encounters better or occupy with less risk, the Cav are going to be able to get you to 75% MC or tear up the rails pretty quickly anyway, which blocks or impedes supply movement for a while even AFTER they leave; a cav division can convert an unoccupied region really quickly, so a Partisan with them only effectively blocks supply for one or two extra turns on top of the Cav Division's natural effects.

It IS useful (assuming it is true) when surrounding/blocking/starving-out retreating enemy stacks, because those are often low on supply to start with, the supply path is more tenuous, and you have other stacks in other regions helping out. Also, supply blocking in general is magnified in bad weather, because the supplies don't move very well over land so alternate-pathing is constrained (but a Partisan can't take very many weather hits, so you know....). Curious whether or not a Partisan on a transport would block river supply, though that would also only rarely be applicable since in theory 4 naval combat elements should block supply anyway (although it is currently unclear that this is true).

Access to the RGDs is the most important Partisan ability in my experience, and is what turns the Cav Divisions into super-raiders.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Division/corps considerations:
So long as you have at least 4 [Cavalry] regiments then you will perform good recon on adjacent regions. Less and your recon will be less effective.

I see this stated a lot, and it seems (from what I can find) to originally be based on a cryptic post by Pocus a long time ago. As far as I can tell, however, a 5 Detection is a 5 Detection: a single Cav element will give you just as much intel as a Cav division, which is the same intel as a combined-arms stack with a single 5 Detection cav element will give (mixed-brigade cav are often conscripts, which only have 4 Detection). I would love confirmation of this, but that has been my experience in-play.

Having more than four cav in a stack gives the stack a Hide bonus due to a cav-screening effect, (depending on overall size) making it harder for the enemy to spot and gather intel on it, which I THINK is what Pocus meant when he said to use minimum 4 cav in a stack.

More than 4 has an impact on pursuit at the end of battles as mentioned above. For this the more the better. But each division doesnt necessarily need any cav. I tend to have 2 per div to pair up for 4 or more in the stack, unless its a single division operating alone which will likely then have 4. But if you had all your cav in a single cavalry division and none in any of the others in the stack this should be fine I believe.

I agree totally: where the Cav are located in the stack is irrrelevant for all non-combat benefits: they can be loose, integrated into combined-arms divisions or in a separate division and the Detection, pursuit, Patrol etc. effects will be the same.

An important and not well-documented reason to have lots of Cav elements in a stack is that they increase the Patrol value, making it more likely that you can actually ENGAGE the enemies you have spotted with your high Detection (and helps your own Evasion value when avoiding combat). Cav Divisions are very good at forcing enemy stacks into battle (because of the quantity of cav in them) which is especially useful against scouts, raiders, and retreaters who are usually in Green posture so have a bonus to their Evasion roll. An equivalent number of cav in a Corps would be good at forcing battle too, but might not get there before the enemy leaves the region.

I shoot for at least 6 cav elements per Corps-sized stack, 10+ is even better. This is easy to achieve for the CSA because we have so many Inf-Inf-Cav brigades. A Cav Leader (red and black horsehead) applies his +25% combat bonus to the stack just like Artillerists, and with this bonus cav become almost-but-not-quite as good as regulars in combat, so I don't worry about having too many cav when I have one of these leaders in the Corps stack.

[tripax]

...As far as I know, however, this was not how they were actually used historically (as elements of cavalry divisions) though someone who knows more should weigh in...

I'm reading Sheridan's memoir now, and Charles Parker Card and his men sort of fit the bill as mounted raiders (at times, spies at other times) associated with an infantry division in Tennessee. Honestly, though, I'm curious about this as well.

[pob303]

[ATTACH]30881[/ATTACH]Thanks for all the advice. It will be a huge help. I am trying some raiding cav divisions against Athena at the moment. What am I doing wrong? If you see the screen shot above. Forrest has just defeated the militia at Salem. No Union troops remaining but I have not taken the city and destroy depot is not an option. There is also one partisan element as part of the division.

[VigaBrand]

Early Kav can't take a city with less than 50 loaylity to your side. You need inf, late cav or more loyality

[Merlin]

Early Kav can't take a city with less than 50 loaylity to your side. You need inf, late cav or more loyality

Absolutely correct, though early raiding is a good way to promote people.

[ohms_law]

Ah, I see! So, essentially, raiding is a late(er) game tactic.

[pob303]

When you say only late cav can take a structure, is there a definitive date that this starts to occur?

[VigaBrand]

Start of 1862. Than it is random, if your cav will be updatet or not. Than find the "update" cav and bring it to your cav division.
Raiding tactic works in Missouri at the start of the game, because in this state you get over 50% loyality after the St. Louis massacre.
That is the reason, why some people hold springfield, Mo as base for this raiding and other tried to occupie.

[Captain_Orso]

Start of 1862. Than it is random, if your cav will be updatet or not. Than find the "update" cav and bring it to your cav division.
Raiding tactic works in Missouri at the start of the game, because in this state you get over 50% loyality after the St. Louis massacre.
That is the reason, why some people hold springfield, Mo as base for this raiding and other tried to occupie.

Capturing a location with <50% friendly loyalty requires either at least 1 Late War Cavalry or 1 Infantry element. The date has nothing to do with it.

Starting with Early June '62 the both sides will start upgrading Early War Cavalry elements to Late War Cavalry, with the Union having a much greater probability of of selecting elements for upgrading. By '64 the South will nearly catch up.

Once captured a location--fort, city, harbor/settlement, etc--within a region with <50% loyalty, if left ungarrisoned, will revert to being "uncontrolled" with all the affects associated with that, such as not giving VP's.

[Gray Fox]

I might point out that not all infantry are alike. Line infantry have better combat values than conscripts or militia. In the Divisions I proposed, my goal was to choose brigades that had the most line infantry (I then trained the conscripts to line infantry). Incidentally, this gave each Division assembled from these line infantry brigades a certain number of cavalry regiments. When I formed the Divisions into stacks (Corps/Army) then I didn't need to add loose cavalry or a cavalry Division, as each stack already had a dozen cavalry regiments.