Supply path question

[Mickey3D]

Here is the situation in Virginia/North Carolina :

[ATTACH]30603[/ATTACH]

CSA has a fleet in the Chowan River preventing the Union move (and I suppose also the supply movement), another fleet in Albermale sound set the Edenton harbor under blockade, Greensville (VA) region is 100% controlled by the South and Tyrell (NC) 91%.

Despite this situation, the log shows that supply is flowing from Warvick (VA) and Norfolk (VA) to Henderson (NC) :

20:07:48 (Reporting) 33 Gen. Supply 266 Warwick, VA > 302 Henderson, NC
20:07:48 (Reporting) 25 Ammos 266 Warwick, VA > 302 Henderson, NC
20:07:48 (Reporting) 23 Gen. Supply 267 Norfolk, VA > 302 Henderson, NC
20:07:48 (Reporting) 40 Ammos 267 Norfolk, VA > 302 Henderson, NC

How is it possible ? What am I missing ?

[havi]

How about norfolk port and ther onwards is it possible?!

[Jim-NC]

I am sorry, but where is Henderson NC (don't have game currently)? Aren't Warwick and Norfolk next to each other?

[Merlin]

It's coming through Chowen, VA. However, if he's getting 53 GS, that's enough for maybe McDowell. He has what looks to be 7,500 ideal combat power completely inorganically unsupplied.

What's the status of the fleet in the Chowen River? Number of elements, ammo, damage, posture, etc.?

[FelixZ]

Usually sea regions display a tool tip advising how many naval elements are required to blockade. Chowan's tooltip does not have blockading prose - Albermarle does. Is there a programing error?

[Mickey3D]

How about norfolk port and ther onwards is it possible?!

It should not, the Albermale sound is under blockade :
[ATTACH]30604[/ATTACH]

[Mickey3D]

I am sorry, but where is Henderson NC (don't have game currently)? Aren't Warwick and Norfolk next to each other?

[ATTACH]30605[/ATTACH]

[Mickey3D]

It's coming through Chowen, VA. However, if he's getting 53 GS, that's enough for maybe McDowell. He has what looks to be 7,500 ideal combat power completely inorganically unsupplied.

What's the status of the fleet in the Chowen River? Number of elements, ammo, damage, posture, etc.?

In Chowan River there is a fleet preventing the move of an Union force (if you try to move accross it, the game don't allow it : 4 ships add up to 90% of chance to prevent movement). My understanding (I might be wrong) is that it should prevent supply movement too.

The fleet :
[ATTACH]30606[/ATTACH]

[Mickey3D]

Usually sea regions display a tool tip advising how many naval elements are required to blockade. Chowan's tooltip does not have blockading prose - Albermarle does. Is there a programing error?

It seems Shallow water regions don't have this text (Lower and Middle Roanoke River, Upper Cap Fear River, Lower Lumber River, ...). But then Albermale Sound should not be Shallow Water ?

[FelixZ]

Neuss River (New Bern) has the blockade prose. Some have some do not.

[FelixZ]

Appears that river regions with adjacent harbors have the prose - have not checked everywhere

[FelixZ]

Georgias Altamaha has prose on segments with adjacent harbors. Intervening segments do not.

[Captain_Orso]

First off, blockading is only for harbors. Only water regions which are exit-points of harbors will give a tool-tip stating how many elements you need to blockade that harbor exit-point and only those regions with harbors will show the blockaded icon if the harbor is blockaded.

Having naval combat elements in a river region can block movement across that river region; a 23% chance blocking per element up to a maximum of 90%.

Does that block supply too? I don't know exactly. But if only up to 90% it could well be that the sum-total of 56 GS and 65 AMMO is only 10% of what the huge force in Henderson NC would actually be pulling were there no CS naval force in the Chowan River.

[Merlin]

First off, blockading is only for harbors. Only water regions which are exit-points of harbors will give a tool-tip stating how many elements you need to blockade that harbor exit-point and only those regions with harbors will show the blockaded icon if the harbor is blockaded.

Having naval combat elements in a river region can block movement across that river region; a 23% chance blocking per element up to a maximum of 90%.

Does that block supply too? I don't know exactly. But if only up to 90% it could well be that the sum-total of 56 GS and 65 AMMO is only 10% of what the huge force in Henderson NC would actually be pulling were there no CS naval force in the Chowan River.

This is my thought on the matter, especially since 56 GS is what you might see in a stockade supplying two regiments.

[pgr]

I'm posting some some things illustrative to help people visualize.

[ATTACH]30605[/ATTACH]

Here is a image of the same region, less cluttered, while I'm holding a shift key which shows the movement connections.

[ATTACH]30653[/ATTACH]

We know that supply is moving from Norfolk, to Suffolk, to Chowin over RR connections (The black line I suppose), and then crossing the river into Henderson. What is interesting is that the supplies don't have to go from Chowen, into the Chowen River, and then to Henderson. (It is the difference between the light blue line to Henderson and the dark blue line into the river).

To contrast, here is another image:
[ATTACH]30656[/ATTACH]

For the sake of argument, lets say supplies are trying to trace a path from Albermarle Sound to the Chowin River, to Henderson (the dark blue line to the Chowin River). That movement is being completely blocked by the rebel fleet in the red box.

So I think Captain-O is correct, the only effect the fleet in the Chowin river might be having, would be to restrict the % of supplies crossing the river into Henderson. Of course, I am not sure that is happening. When I look at the main screen shot, Norfolk doesn't seem to have a depot. As a size 5 town sans depot might only be able to push forward a max of 56 GS and 65 Ammo.

Micky, since you are experimenting with this, would you mind running another turn or two (with the AI off) and move your fleet out of the Chowin River? This would let you see if there is any impact on the amount of supply crossing the river.

Also people should read his AAR from the match with GF to get some back story on this particular tactical problem.

[pgr]

Of course it would be nice to have a clearer idea about how much supply can pass through a given terrain type... say a throughput indication on the terrain or supply overlay.

[Merlin]

So I think Captain-O is correct, the only effect the fleet in the Chowin river might be having, would be to restrict the % of supplies crossing the river into Henderson. Of course, I am not sure that is happening. When I look at the main screen shot, Norfolk doesn't seem to have a depot. As a size 5 town sans depot might only be able to push forward a max of 56 GS and 65 Ammo.

This was my thought as well. Perhaps fleets block supply as a percentage, just as they block movement?

[Mickey3D]

Micky, since you are experimenting with this, would you mind running another turn or two (with the AI off) and move your fleet out of the Chowin River? This would let you see if there is any impact on the amount of supply crossing the river.

Good point, I'll try it this evening as I'm not in front of the game now.

[Mickey3D]

This was my thought as well. Perhaps fleets block supply as a percentage, just as they block movement?

I never heard/read that a fleet blocks a % of the supply, would be nice to have a feedback from the developpers.

[Pocus]

either supply can pass or it can't...

[Mickey3D]

I'm posting some some things illustrative to help people visualize.

Thanks, nice idea.

We know that supply is moving from Norfolk, to Suffolk, to Chowin over RR connections (The black line I suppose), and then crossing the river into Henderson. What is interesting is that the supplies don't have to go from Chowen, into the Chowen River, and then to Henderson. (It is the difference between the light blue line to Henderson and the dark blue line into the river).

It was never my idea that the supply had to go into the Chowan River (may be I was not clear), but still we have in this river a fleet strong enough to prevent the crossing of a full corps so I'm expecting the supply to be cut also.

[Mickey3D]

either supply can pass or it can't...

Is there a way to check in the log if the supply is blocked ?

[pgr]

either supply can pass or it can't...

So the fleet either blocks it or it doesn't? No % of supply movement blocked is possible?

If that is the case, then Micky's experience seems to show that a fleet in a river has no impact on supplies crossing a river. That would seem odd...especially considering the fleet is effectively blocking units who wish to cross the river.

Does this mean that fleets block supply along rivers but not across them?

(Though you should still experiment Micky...just to be sure )

[Captain_Orso]

IIRC if you turn on the supply overlay on the map, the regions in blue are regions through through which you can pass supplies.

The supply debugging log does not record any more than it already does--unless Pocus has a super-secret debugging parameter--.

Pgr, I'm not sure how you are getting through which regions the supply is passing other than logical conclusion, but I'm not sure of that much at the moment.

What I'm fairly certain of:

- All regions between Norfolk VA and the Chowan River are to 100% in Union MC.

- It appears that Waverly VA and Greenville VA are 100% in CS MC.

- There are 4 or more or more naval combat elements in the Chowan River.

What I assume:

- Edenton's harbor exit-point is in the Roanoke Esuary.

- The fleet in Roanoke Estuary, being large enough to blockade Edenton, is also large enough to block all supplies from moving across the Roanoke Estuary.

This leaves only two possible conclusions that I can see:

1. Supply is not blocked by the CS naval elements in the Chowan River.

2. Supply is not being blocked by the 100% CS MC in Waverly and Greenville VA.

Since Pocus stated--with regard to the river-crossing-blockage/filtering of supplies-- that supply are either blocked or not, and I assume that if supply may moving unhindered across the Chowan River, the amount arriving in Henderson NC would be far, far greater--if there is enough in Norfolk--, I tend to rather assume that the supply is moving through Waverly and Greenville, which seems to be a bug to me.

[pgr]

IIRC if you turn on the supply overlay on the map, the regions in blue are regions through through which you can pass supplies.

The supply debugging log does not record any more than it already does--unless Pocus has a super-secret debugging parameter--.

Pgr, I'm not sure how you are getting through which regions the supply is passing other than logical conclusion, but I'm not sure of that much at the moment.

I was going of Micky's debugging report at the top of the thread...

[Captain_Orso]

Yes, but that only tells you, xx GS was sent from location, to location. There is no information on which path the supply took.

[pgr]

What I assume:
This leaves only two possible conclusions that I can see:

1. Supply is not blocked by the CS naval elements in the Chowan River.

2. Supply is not being blocked by the 100% CS MC in Waverly and Greenville VA.

Since Pocus stated--with regard to the river-crossing-blockage/filtering of supplies-- that supply are either blocked or not, and I assume that if supply may moving unhindered across the Chowan River, the amount arriving in Henderson NC would be far, far greater--if there is enough in Norfolk--, I tend to rather assume that the supply is moving through Waverly and Greenville, which seems to be a bug to me.

I think the low amount of supplies in coming from Norfolk is related to there being no Depot in Norfolk (my understanding was that GF and Micky engaged in lots of raiding)

I read Pocus to say supplies either go or they don't. He made no reference to fleets. I think it is more likely that we have a programing oversight where the ability of a fleet to prevent elements from crossing a river was not extended to preventing supplies from crossing a fleet occupied river, rather than supplies somehow making their way through zones that have 0 MC.

IMO

[Ace]

Just a thought, could river supply pass to Grant? ?Henderson has no harbor that can be blocked?

[Captain_Orso]

I think the low amount of supplies in coming from Norfolk is related to there being no Depot in Norfolk (my understanding was that GF and Micky engaged in lots of raiding)

No, supplies are pulled only. It matters not what other than the supplies themselves are in the source, only what is in the pulling region.

I read Pocus to say supplies either go or they don't. He made no reference to fleets. I think it is more likely that we have a programing oversight where the ability of a fleet to prevent elements from crossing a river was not extended to preventing supplies from crossing a fleet occupied river, rather than supplies somehow making their way through zones that have 0 MC.

IMO

The discussion at that point was whether the fleet in the Chowan River should be blocking supplies. Although Pocus' answer is not really concise , I take it to mean two things:
1. Supply can be blocked from crossing a river region,
2. It is either completely blocked or not at all.

Just a thought, could river supply pass to Grant? ?Henderson has no harbor that can be blocked?

Ummm, what is river-supply?

If you have =>1/3 and <2/3 of your full riverine transport capacity supply distribution can use that to move along rivers in the first supply distribution phase; I have never heard anything about it needing to go to or come from a harbor.

If you have =>2/3 and < your full riverine transport capacity you can use riverine transports in 2 phases.

And if you have your full riverine transport capacity you can use riverine transports in 3 phases.

So theoretically supply could pass through the Roanoke River to reach Henderson NC, but the question would then be, how would it get to the Roanoke River.

--

It would be very interesting to know how much supply is in Norfolk after production/before the first distribution phase. One would have to search the !HostLog.txt file from that turn for "Dumping initial supply stocks after production" and then scroll down to Norfolk.

Any chance of that Mickey?

[Mickey3D]

Sorry for the delay but here is the result of my experiment.

First, a reminder of the situation :

[ATTACH]30884[/ATTACH]
When nothing is specified, it means the MC is 100% CSA.

[ATTACH]30885[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]30886[/ATTACH]

Note : because of the fleet in the Chowan River, there is a 90% chance to block Union movement and, as explained by Pocus, to block supply movement.

The attached Excel file contains the status of Union forces and supply stocks at start of turns 47 to 52 (I did not consider ammunition) :
[ATTACH]30897[/ATTACH]

The file shows for supply stock the number of supply points available and for Union forces the % of maximum capacity.

And here is the log file :
[ATTACH]30894[/ATTACH]

Note that in the log file there is an error in the turn numbering : Turn 46 stands for turn 47, 47 for 48, etc.