Sounds good Pocus. If you guys need someone to help with the changes just drop me a message.
I am currently doing a map like the one Phil has above with red hashes showing what needs fixing.
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Doomwalker
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jimwinsor
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Rail Lines for Deletion
OK, by comparing the various historic rail maps to the game map, I've come up with a large list of Southern rail lines for deletion, plus a handful currently missing lines for possible addition.
Some of these changes will be huge, some no big deal. Game balance wise, I get the feeling deletions of north-south running lines will hurt the Union, while cutting east-west lines will hurt the Confederates more. There seems to me an equal amount of both, below.
Links in paranthesis were lines built during the war, non-existant in July 1861. I'm not sure how to handle these. Some are trivial lines going nowhere except between two isolated towns, others make significant connections. Of course, there is no mechanism for adding new lines during the game, so ???.
What might be cool is if the event engine could add them during the game, perhaps randomly? A wish list thought, maybe...anyways, on to the...
Proposed Rail Deletions:
1) Hampstead TX <-> Mongomery TX <-> Navasota TX <-> Sumpter TX <-> Cotton TX <-> Woodville TX <-> Teran TX <-> Milan TX <-> Mansfield TX <-> Shreveport LA (<-> Marshall TX).
2) Shreveport LA <-> Lebanon LA <-> Vernon LA <-> Monroe LA.
3) Lake Charles TX <-> Lisbon LA <-> Opelousas LA <-> Vermillion LA <-> Pierre LA.
4) Springfield LA <-> Baton Rouge LA <-> Clinton LA <-> Bell MS.
5) Brown AR <-> Madison AR
6) (Humphreys TN <-> Davidson TN)
7) (Meridian MS <-> Butler AL <-> Kent AL <-> Union AL)
8) (Meridian MS <-> Sullivan AL)
9) Madison TN should travel directly to adjacent Tippecanoe MS, w/o doglegging thru McNairy TN.
10) Henry TN should travel directly to adjacent Humpreys TN, w/o doglegging thru Stewart TN.
11) Rutherford TN <-> Coffee TN <-> Camon TN.
12) Sumner TN <-> Smith TN <-> Putnam TN <-> Overton TN <-> Fentriss TN <-> Scott TN.
13) Anderson TN <-> Scott TN <-> Wayne KY <-> Pulaski KY <-> Lincoln KY <-> Fayette KY.
14) Knox TN <-> Greene TN <-> Sevior TN.
15) Albany GA <-> Loundes GA <-> Thomas GA <-> Brown GA.
16) Mongomery AL <-> Elmore AL <-> Selma AL.
17) (Guilford NC <-> Yancey NC <-> Pittsylvania VA).
18) Cheraw SC <-> Chesterfield SC <-> Rockingham NC <-> Moore NC <-> Orange NC <-> Wake NC.
19) Person NC <-> Mecklenburg VA.
20) (Appling GA <-> Early GA).
21) Saint Louis MO <-> Hill MO <-> Perry MO <-> Cape MO <-> Scott MO <-> Alexander IL.
22) Henderson KY <-> Muhlenburg KY <-> Warren KY.
Proposed Rail Additions:
1) Banks GA <-> Dawson GA.
2) Muskogee GA <-> Opelika AL.
3) (Suwanee FL <-> Hamilton GA).
Some of these changes will be huge, some no big deal. Game balance wise, I get the feeling deletions of north-south running lines will hurt the Union, while cutting east-west lines will hurt the Confederates more. There seems to me an equal amount of both, below.
Links in paranthesis were lines built during the war, non-existant in July 1861. I'm not sure how to handle these. Some are trivial lines going nowhere except between two isolated towns, others make significant connections. Of course, there is no mechanism for adding new lines during the game, so ???.
What might be cool is if the event engine could add them during the game, perhaps randomly? A wish list thought, maybe...anyways, on to the...
Proposed Rail Deletions:
1) Hampstead TX <-> Mongomery TX <-> Navasota TX <-> Sumpter TX <-> Cotton TX <-> Woodville TX <-> Teran TX <-> Milan TX <-> Mansfield TX <-> Shreveport LA (<-> Marshall TX).
2) Shreveport LA <-> Lebanon LA <-> Vernon LA <-> Monroe LA.
3) Lake Charles TX <-> Lisbon LA <-> Opelousas LA <-> Vermillion LA <-> Pierre LA.
4) Springfield LA <-> Baton Rouge LA <-> Clinton LA <-> Bell MS.
5) Brown AR <-> Madison AR
6) (Humphreys TN <-> Davidson TN)
7) (Meridian MS <-> Butler AL <-> Kent AL <-> Union AL)
8) (Meridian MS <-> Sullivan AL)
9) Madison TN should travel directly to adjacent Tippecanoe MS, w/o doglegging thru McNairy TN.
10) Henry TN should travel directly to adjacent Humpreys TN, w/o doglegging thru Stewart TN.
11) Rutherford TN <-> Coffee TN <-> Camon TN.
12) Sumner TN <-> Smith TN <-> Putnam TN <-> Overton TN <-> Fentriss TN <-> Scott TN.
13) Anderson TN <-> Scott TN <-> Wayne KY <-> Pulaski KY <-> Lincoln KY <-> Fayette KY.
14) Knox TN <-> Greene TN <-> Sevior TN.
15) Albany GA <-> Loundes GA <-> Thomas GA <-> Brown GA.
16) Mongomery AL <-> Elmore AL <-> Selma AL.
17) (Guilford NC <-> Yancey NC <-> Pittsylvania VA).
18) Cheraw SC <-> Chesterfield SC <-> Rockingham NC <-> Moore NC <-> Orange NC <-> Wake NC.
19) Person NC <-> Mecklenburg VA.
20) (Appling GA <-> Early GA).
21) Saint Louis MO <-> Hill MO <-> Perry MO <-> Cape MO <-> Scott MO <-> Alexander IL.
22) Henderson KY <-> Muhlenburg KY <-> Warren KY.
Proposed Rail Additions:
1) Banks GA <-> Dawson GA.
2) Muskogee GA <-> Opelika AL.
3) (Suwanee FL <-> Hamilton GA).
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LMUBill
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jimwinsor wrote:
14) Knox TN <-> Greene TN <-> Sevior TN.
If you mean the one going to Newport then I agree with you. Actually Newport should be removed as it was basically nothing more than a tavern by the side of the road in those days. And even though it was moved a couple of miles after the war to be on the railroad when the RR was built, the description above is still accurate today.
The city that is now Newport should be moved to where Greeneville is drawn on the map and re-named as Greeneville. Greeneville was one of the larger towns in Eastern Tennessee at the time. John Hunt Morgan was ambushed there and killed by US forces in 1864. It was also the home town of Vice-President Andrew Johnson.
9) Madison TN should travel directly to adjacent Tippecanoe MS, w/o doglegging thru McNairy TN.
In this case McNairy TN in the game is actually two counties in real life... McNairy on the west (where the railroad actually went through to the west of Purdy) and Hardin on the east (where the batle of Shiloh was fought... Hardin county is actually on BOTH sides of the river).
I can see why you would want that changed as you can use the railroad and the river without going into a different region first but that's the way they made the map. But in this case the railroad is correct and the way the regions are drawn out is wrong. If you have or can get hold of a copy of the Official Atlas (companion maps to the Official Records) look on Plates CXVII, CXLIX and CLIV.
Regions are supposed to equal counties but there are a few instances where that is not the case... and this is one of them.
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jimwinsor
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LMUBill wrote:If you mean the one going to Newport then I agree with you. Actually Newport should be removed as it was basically nothing more than a tavern by the side of the road in those days. And even though it was moved a couple of miles after the war to be on the railroad when the RR was built, the description above is still accurate today.
The city that is now Newport should be moved to where Greeneville is drawn on the map and re-named as Greeneville. Greeneville was one of the larger towns in Eastern Tennessee at the time. John Hunt Morgan was ambushed there and killed by US forces in 1864. It was also the home town of Vice-President Andrew Johnson.
In this case McNairy TN in the game is actually two counties in real life... McNairy on the west (where the railroad actually went through to the west of Purdy) and Hardin on the east (where the batle of Shiloh was fought... Hardin county is actually on BOTH sides of the river).
I can see why you would want that changed as you can use the railroad and the river without going into a different region first but that's the way they made the map. But in this case the railroad is correct and the way the regions are drawn out is wrong. If you have or can get hold of a copy of the Official Atlas (companion maps to the Official Records) look on Plates CXVII, CXLIX and CLIV.
Regions are supposed to equal counties but there are a few instances where that is not the case... and this is one of them.
Yep, it's that little spur line running from Knoxville to Newport. I could find that on none of the maps I referenced.
And as for Newport, heh, yeah now that you mention it I don't see it on any of my maps either. And it's currently a level 2 city.
As for the other line, it looks to me to me far enough west of Purdy so as it should not enter the province. 'Cause I'm looking at the rail maps, and this is a line running slightly SE from Humboldt, not really getting near the river, then into Corinth where a "plus sign" crossroads is formed. It's a straight enough stretch that I can't see an extra MP being expended to rail through McNairy. And as currently depicted game, it's drawn EAST of Purdy, and the "plus sign" thru Corinth is badly off kilter.
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LMUBill
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jimwinsor wrote:As for the other line, it looks to me to me far enough west of Purdy so as it should not enter the province. 'Cause I'm looking at the rail maps, and this is a line running slightly SE from Humboldt, not really getting near the river, then into Corinth where a "plus sign" crossroads is formed. It's a straight enough stretch that I can't see an extra MP being expended to rail through McNairy. And as currently depicted game, it's drawn EAST of Purdy, and the "plus sign" thru Corinth is badly off kilter.
That's where the regions don't match up to the counties. That railroad goes right through the middle of the "real" McNairy County (Through Selmer on the way from Jackson to Corinth, to be accurate. US 45 parallels it for most of the way) and is the main reason that Purdy isn't even in existence anymore. Apart from moving Purdy on the map or moving the railroad a bit to the west (or the third option, which is to totally redo the regions.... and that will be done by flying pigs) there probably isn't much that can be done here except act like it isn't happening.
You could always make the excuse for the "quicker" MP in the area is due to having to dodge all the tornados the area seems to get. 
And as for Newport, you could about make the same argument for Huntsville, TN as well and replacing it with Somerset, KY, which was the main supply source for Burnside when he moved into East Tennessee and for the entire Knoxville campaign. (Somerset was a large supply depot and staging area for the union.... my g-g-g-grandfather's infantry unit was moved through there many times and even re-fitted as a mounted infantry unit there. Almost all of the unit's muster rolls are from there or London, KY) I can see the purpose of Huntsville being there as it was a county seat (or state capitol if you buy into the whole "Independent State of Scott" thing where they seceded from Tennessee when Tennessee seceded from the US.) and was on the same supply line.
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jimwinsor
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LMUBill wrote: ...If you have or can get hold of a copy of the Official Atlas (companion maps to the Official Records) look on Plates CXVII, CXLIX and CLIV.
...
It's funny you mention this, because I was just browsing one of the used book stores in my neighborhood, and ran across a copy for $35. It's a beaut, but I wasn't really looking for a gigantic hardbound yesterday so I passed...but I think you've inspired me to go back today and lighten my disposable income by $35.
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LMUBill
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jimwinsor wrote:It's funny you mention this, because I was just browsing one of the used book stores in my neighborhood, and ran across a copy for $35. It's a beaut, but I wasn't really looking for a gigantic hardbound yesterday so I passed...but I think you've inspired me to go back today and lighten my disposable income by $35.
When I get the approximately 60 bucks free I'm going to get the CD-Rom version. You can export the entire map (or whatever portion you want to use) to photoshop or another graphics program and edit them. I think you can add notes, annotations, etc. in the viewer program on the CD-Rom as well. If I had that I could post the images here.
$35 is a good deal for this. I mentioned elsewhere on here that I got mine for a lot cheaper but it was a clearance sale at Waldenbooks and they were happy to be rid of it. Wish I had bought the other copy they had too.
That big OR Map book is usually at Barnes & Noble for about $19.
Moving "structures" like the level 2 town of Newport is not a big deal. Just a matter of editing some text files.
Removing the railroads is slightly tedious using Photoshop/GIMP, but only because we want it to look good.
Adding Railroads I haven't tried yet but I'm sure it can be done.
There are also the .rgn files for each region that must be edited also, but that's just "paperwork".
Do you have the large downloadable map .jpg? Might be usefull for screenshots.
http://www.a-acw.com/images/AACWMap.jpg (right click and save as, 10.5MB)
Moving "structures" like the level 2 town of Newport is not a big deal. Just a matter of editing some text files.
Removing the railroads is slightly tedious using Photoshop/GIMP, but only because we want it to look good.
Adding Railroads I haven't tried yet but I'm sure it can be done.
There are also the .rgn files for each region that must be edited also, but that's just "paperwork".
Do you have the large downloadable map .jpg? Might be usefull for screenshots.
http://www.a-acw.com/images/AACWMap.jpg (right click and save as, 10.5MB)
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jimwinsor
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OK I was leafing thru my new Atlas 
and I noticed some corrections I need to make to the list of proposed rail changes above.
First, ignore this one: 11) Rutherford TN <-> Coffee TN <-> Camon TN. This rail line actually does exist (and it's actually Cannon, not Camon).
However, I discovered another apparantly nonexistant line...and this one is a doozie! It's the one that goes from Falmouth KY all the way thru West Virginia to Christianburg. According to the OR Atlas, nope, not there.
So, the new number 11 is:
11) Harrison KY <-> Braken KY <-> Mason KY <-> Boyd KY <-> Louisa WV <-> Pleasant WV <-> Kanawah WV <-> Crawford WV <-> Greenbriar WV <-> Hardin WV <-> Mercer WV <-> Whyte WV.
Lastly, an error on entry 13; the last county should be Marion, KY, not Fayette KY (ie, Lexington). So, 13 should read:
13) Anderson TN <-> Scott TN <-> Wayne KY <-> Pulaski KY <-> Lincoln KY <-> Marion KY.
To give everyone a visual of what I've come up with, attached is the game map tc237 mentioned, with the proposed changes marked on it. A BLACK line is a rail that should be deleted because it apparantly did not exist (at least during the ACW). A GREY line is a rail that was built during the war, hence may or may not have to be removed, depending on how those are handled. A GREEN line are rails that should be there but arn't. A YELLOW line is a rail built during the war that may or may not be added depending on how those are handled.
The map file is a big 10mb .jpg, so I put "railfix.jpg" up for download on the following sendspace link:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/tefakc
As you can see, a few of these rail stretches are quite long and strategically interesting, and their elimination will have a big impact on game play. Besides the Tennessee lines and this new West Virginia one, Texas and Little Rock get cut off from the east, and the useful line running south from St. Louis to Cairo (west of the river) is now a goner.
So, if I made any other errors here, they should be pointed out.
and I noticed some corrections I need to make to the list of proposed rail changes above.
First, ignore this one: 11) Rutherford TN <-> Coffee TN <-> Camon TN. This rail line actually does exist (and it's actually Cannon, not Camon).
However, I discovered another apparantly nonexistant line...and this one is a doozie! It's the one that goes from Falmouth KY all the way thru West Virginia to Christianburg. According to the OR Atlas, nope, not there.
So, the new number 11 is:
11) Harrison KY <-> Braken KY <-> Mason KY <-> Boyd KY <-> Louisa WV <-> Pleasant WV <-> Kanawah WV <-> Crawford WV <-> Greenbriar WV <-> Hardin WV <-> Mercer WV <-> Whyte WV.
Lastly, an error on entry 13; the last county should be Marion, KY, not Fayette KY (ie, Lexington). So, 13 should read:
13) Anderson TN <-> Scott TN <-> Wayne KY <-> Pulaski KY <-> Lincoln KY <-> Marion KY.
To give everyone a visual of what I've come up with, attached is the game map tc237 mentioned, with the proposed changes marked on it. A BLACK line is a rail that should be deleted because it apparantly did not exist (at least during the ACW). A GREY line is a rail that was built during the war, hence may or may not have to be removed, depending on how those are handled. A GREEN line are rails that should be there but arn't. A YELLOW line is a rail built during the war that may or may not be added depending on how those are handled.
The map file is a big 10mb .jpg, so I put "railfix.jpg" up for download on the following sendspace link:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/tefakc
As you can see, a few of these rail stretches are quite long and strategically interesting, and their elimination will have a big impact on game play. Besides the Tennessee lines and this new West Virginia one, Texas and Little Rock get cut off from the east, and the useful line running south from St. Louis to Cairo (west of the river) is now a goner.
So, if I made any other errors here, they should be pointed out.
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Doomwalker
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Here is a link to a really cool set of maps. http://www.csa-railroads.com/
Go to maps and check the Eastern US 1865 map, it is just gorgeous. You will need the MrSid viewer to see it.
Go to maps and check the Eastern US 1865 map, it is just gorgeous. You will need the MrSid viewer to see it.
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Doomwalker
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jimwinsor
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Thats quite possibly true, I haven't really even checked the northern rails. Doing the south was eyestrain enough. 
In fact, I would not have caught the (non)rail thru WV to Christianburg, because the OR Atlas I recently picked up showed all the (non)rails in that area. WV is not considered in "the south" on many of the other "rails of the south" sites referenced above.
The good news is, the north's rail net is no where near as critical in terms of game accuracy as is getting the south's, I think it's fair to say.
In fact, I would not have caught the (non)rail thru WV to Christianburg, because the OR Atlas I recently picked up showed all the (non)rails in that area. WV is not considered in "the south" on many of the other "rails of the south" sites referenced above.
The good news is, the north's rail net is no where near as critical in terms of game accuracy as is getting the south's, I think it's fair to say.
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Doomwalker
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Jabberwock
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Jabberwock
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I believe there was a railroad between Hampstead, TX and Navasota, TX (direct) - but it didn't run through Montgomery and Huntsville.
BTW - I am working on modding the files for these corrections. Generally working West to East one state at a time:
Texas
Missouri
Louisiana
Tennesssee
Kentucky
...
How are the graphics going?
BTW - I am working on modding the files for these corrections. Generally working West to East one state at a time:
Texas
Missouri
Louisiana
Tennesssee
Kentucky
...
How are the graphics going?
[color="DimGray"] You deserve to be spanked[/color]
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jimwinsor
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Jabberwock wrote:How about this one:
Charles City, VA <-> New Kent, VA <-> James City VA
That didn't actually exist, did it?
No, you're right it didn't. However, there was a short rail from Richmond to West Point (Richmond and York RR) that should be around there instead.
The drawn town of West Point is a little off in fact; it should be drawn squarely in the Hannover area. So, this new line should run direct between Richmond and Hannover.
Short as it was, this line was actually quite important during the Peninsula campaign. McC used it for supply purposes in the early stages, when his supply base was on the York River; Lee used it too to employ the world's first rail gun against McC (a 32 pounder mounted on a flatcar).
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Jabberwock
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Louis Ste Colombe
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OK, where do we stand with all of this?
I am willing to do some graphics patching work if needed. It would really only take a team of 2-3 guys with decent talents to work out the proposed graphic changes. Make it 3-4 members.
This isn't hard, and I think it is imperative to a challenging game. Take a look at the image in the posts above. That shows you just how important rail regions become, whereas now it is pretty easy to just shoot over another region or two. Ahistorical ease of movement.
Not sure on AGEod's coming changes, but would like to know so we can perhaps form up a team of guys for this and get it done.
I am willing to do some graphics patching work if needed. It would really only take a team of 2-3 guys with decent talents to work out the proposed graphic changes. Make it 3-4 members.
This isn't hard, and I think it is imperative to a challenging game. Take a look at the image in the posts above. That shows you just how important rail regions become, whereas now it is pretty easy to just shoot over another region or two. Ahistorical ease of movement.
Not sure on AGEod's coming changes, but would like to know so we can perhaps form up a team of guys for this and get it done.
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jimwinsor
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I got the message!
I'm ready to stand by the big list I wrote in post #33 of this thread, modified by #40, with slight corrections noted in posts #49 and #50.
A big, still looming question is how to treat rails built during the war.
I'm ready to stand by the big list I wrote in post #33 of this thread, modified by #40, with slight corrections noted in posts #49 and #50.
A big, still looming question is how to treat rails built during the war.
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jimwinsor wrote:A big, still looming question is how to treat rails built during the war.
Good point. My gut instinct tells me it pretty much needs to be treated in AACW like they did West Virginia. It wasn't separate until 1863 IIRC, but for game purposes, it starts as a state.
I think the railroads have to be the same, if only because of the major headache I believe would be involved in doing it the correct way. Seems this will be one of those "law of diminishing returns" problems, i.e., at some point, it just isn't worth all the effort. Of course, I have been wrong before...
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