What is your favorite Faction?

[HerrDan]

So what's your favorite faction in PON? (or what's the one you're playing? I forgot to add Japan in my last one:laugh

[HerrDan]

As I told PhilTib, as I had forgot to add Japan in the last poll I made and I don't know how to edit polls I created this one, properly with all the factions you can choose (or even mod as the option "other" is there to represent that).

Let's vote and see which one is the !

[HerrDan]

Just to let everybody know, this is the true poll as it has all the factions in game properly there, the one I made before I had forgot to add Japan
So this one is the one to vote.

[H Gilmer3]

I like Prussia because it has so many interesting things that can happen. The North German Federation. Then take it to becoming Germany. Then it has interesting colony options after it becomes an empire.

[HerrDan]

I like Prussia because it has so many interesting things that can happen. The North German Federation. Then take it to becoming Germany. Then it has interesting colony options after it becomes an empire.

It's even better in the 1880 scenario

[HerrDan]

Just to remind people, THIS ONE is actually the poll, the other one I posted earlier was without japan in it, I just didn't delete that because I suppose I can't, but please vote in THIS POLL HERE, I've said that before but people keep voting in the older/wrong poll

[Christophe.Barot]

the weak number of Russia and British fans is a big surprise for me - people don't like huge empires ?

germany at top NP - logical - France logical too, you fight Russia Austria Prussia (Mexico ?) and have a colonial challenge - you may even try to win the "revanche"

Russia ? you have several fights with Turks with possible British (and even French or Austrian) involvment, may have to fight Japanese (or, as far east events are presently broken, Chinese instead), a critical game in central asia (great game against British i tried to beat to Afghanistan - succeeded), an interesting European diplomatic game where you befriend and balance relations with France and prussia, and in endgame a strong rivalry with Austrians (got to Tyrol and Adriatic to save Serb's a .. and failed, no way forcing Austria even destroyed at 99% to make peace with serbs - in the "to fix list") - only germany match it for me

Britain - didn't play it yet, but you're the superpower, with real challenge : beat the french and german in africa, hold the Russian at bay against the ottoman (AI is reasonable, Belgium won't be threatened) - keep balance, build the strongest economy - you've the coal, the initial economic situation, no direct immediate European military pressure (except you need crimea), enough to smash the Russian fleet, then you can land, cut off Russian from bases, reembark - you've an interesting game in India and South Africa against boers and sepoy, and may make a trade hub of yours, plus the naval powerhouse no AI will ever do

can even try to see if you can beat the american economically - even a top Italy can't but imho Britain and germany can (even Russia, France - shortage of coal+demography and Austria - more efficuient than Russia, less than "Saxon" powers - have some doubt, Italy and japan imho can't and its perfectly justified

no takers ? geez too intimidatuing ?

US has his usual fans - internal american play, civil war, crushing spain hopelessly, manifest destiny + economic powerhouse - logical

Italy (unification+colonies+challenge) and japan (exotic, quiet - guess 1880 scenario is preferred, except if you like Samurais, earlyb years could be a bore) I understand popularity, Ottoman - there's the challenge (and Pocus may have answered) Austria could make better in an "ottoman fashion"- challenge against continental powers, but not fit for colony and defensive play

nevertheless limited sample yet

[HerrDan]

the weak number of Russia and British fans is a big surprise for me - people don't like huge empires ?

germany at top NP - logical - France logical too, you fight Russia Austria Prussia (Mexico ?) and have a colonial challenge - you may even try to win the "revanche"

Russia ? you have several fights with Turks with possible British (and even French or Austrian) involvment, may have to fight Japanese (or, as far east events are presently broken, Chinese instead), a critical game in central asia (great game against British i tried to beat to Afghanistan - succeeded), an interesting European diplomatic game where you befriend and balance relations with France and prussia, and in endgame a strong rivalry with Austrians (got to Tyrol and Adriatic to save Serb's a .. and failed, no way forcing Austria even destroyed at 99% to make peace with serbs - in the "to fix list") - only germany match it for me

Britain - didn't play it yet, but you're the superpower, with real challenge : beat the french and german in africa, hold the Russian at bay against the ottoman (AI is reasonable, Belgium won't be threatened) - keep balance, build the strongest economy - you've the coal, the initial economic situation, no direct immediate European military pressure (except you need crimea), enough to smash the Russian fleet, then you can land, cut off Russian from bases, reembark - you've an interesting game in India and South Africa against boers and sepoy, and may make a trade hub of yours, plus the naval powerhouse no AI will ever do

can even try to see if you can beat the american economically - even a top Italy can't but imho Britain and germany can (even Russia, France - shortage of coal+demography and Austria - more efficuient than Russia, less than "Saxon" powers - have some doubt, Italy and japan imho can't and its perfectly justified

no takers ? geez too intimidatuing ?

US has his usual fans - internal american play, civil war, crushing spain hopelessly, manifest destiny + economic powerhouse - logical

Italy (unification+colonies+challenge) and japan (exotic, quiet - guess 1880 scenario is preferred, except if you like Samurais, earlyb years could be a bore) I understand popularity, Ottoman - there's the challenge (and Pocus may have answered) Austria could make better in an "ottoman fashion"- challenge against continental powers, but not fit for colony and defensive play

nevertheless limited sample yet

I was also impressed with the lack of british fans around, Russia I can understand better, as they don't seem to have many fans around the world nowadays (sorry I couldn't resist...) but still Russia has one of the best soundtrack in the game, many times I listen to the Avagard or the Borodin's magnum opus Prince Igor. Playing Russia must be very fun indeed, but I haven't tried yet, maybe they're my next try, after I end my AAR with the German Reich.

The polls are surprising me in general, i only wish I could delete the older one when I forgot to add Japan (and even PhilThib called my attention to that apy: ), I didn't set up a time for the polls to end, so I expect it to have more reliable results after some time with more voters.

[Christophe.Barot]

Russia is rather historical, you begin rather weak economically, and take off is rather slow and painful - still it is complex

but what a powerhouse after !!

Britain is complex, but begins powerful at start + British empire is way more valued (in western countries) and known than Russia - Greg Costikyan pax Britannica, Hollywood's charge of light brigade, seen from british point of view, Zulu, 3 lancers of bengal, Niven's role in 55 days of petking - who saw "admiral" (koltchak) or russian movie about 1877 war (except fer who could get one) - would expect more british popularity among (many anglo saxon) gamers

Russia you said - you know, seems to me Putin is fairly in line with seasoned Russian rulers traditions ....
(that may be exactly the problem, moereover into what they consider their legitimate SOI which doesn't help)

[HerrDan]

Russia is rather historical, you begin rather weak economically, and take off is rather slow and painful - still it is complex

but what a powerhouse after !!

Britain is complex, but begins powerful at start + British empire is way more valued (in western countries) and known than Russia - Greg Costikyan pax Britannica, Hollywood's charge of light brigade, seen from british point of view, Zulu, 3 lancers of bengal, Niven's role in 55 days of petking - who saw "admiral" (koltchak) or russian movie about 1877 war (except fer who could get one) - would expect more british popularity among (many anglo saxon) gamers

Russia you said - you know, seems to me Putin is fairly in line with seasoned Russian rulers traditions ....
(that may be exactly the problem, moereover into what they consider their legitimate SOI which doesn't help)

Agreed completelly here, it's really surprising the small number of voters for Great Britain (at least until now), I always thought they were the most popular faction. And about Putin, the problem is that most of the western powers have forgot what armed forces are for, mainly to avoind wars, to defend their nations, so you see very little investment in arms around Europe, I really doubt Putin would be so bold if the rest of Europe was with up to date and powerful armed forces and willing to oppose him, nobody wants a war with Russia now, of course, but the lack of strong oposition to him is what feeds Putin's bold actions, Obama's weak responses really doesn't help much here, I'm not a republican, but I see that if we were to avoid the expansion of Putin's plan to conquer Ukraine we should show him the consequences of this (we couldn't even impose any real/serious economic embargo) and maybe then he would think twice before moving so far.

[czert2]

looks like no one like half-frog eaters and tommys .

[HerrDan]

looks like no one like half-frog eaters and tommys .

Really surprising results.

[Christophe.Barot]

intimidated by logistical management perhaps ?

too bad, people miss such an opportunity to rule the waves !

[HerrDan]

intimidated by logistical management perhaps ?

too bad, people miss such an opportunity to rule the waves !

Yes it's surprising indeed, but the fact that I think makes Germany the most popular one here is what you have mentioned before in the improve PON subforum about Germany being the perfect country for agressive playing style, as you mentioned, almost everything you can attain seems historical plausible as the Wilhelmine Germany had such a huge potential and agressive politik that beating the french and the russians (and you could add a lot more to the list) and even defying the United States and Great Britain could be seem as historically plausible, so that leads to a very thrilling gameplay, specially in the 1880 scenario (where the world is already set on a more realistic form that resembles our own in the 19th century, as unfortunately in the 1850 campaign you won't see AI unifying Italy, no Bulgaria etc...), besides, waging war against Russia is always very interesting and fun as it allows for many kinds of moves and comes and backs etc as I have in my game, and land warfare is a bit more thrilling than naval warfare in PON (in my game I had to script many events to give the AI a realistic fleet to face mine, indeed I gave the british better ships than mine, but the AI deploys their navy in a very "random" way to say the least...) if you have read my AAR you can see that I'm having such a fantastic time playing that I can assure you that playing with any other faction, at least to me, pales in comparisson with playing Germany.
It's great to be "in the center of the stage" attacked by all sides and still standing firm against all odds (well not always, but it gets harder when you have to help each of your "décadent" allies and still fight a war on many fronts, but it was still very possible that Germany could have won the war as late as 1918 as they almost did in real life).

As Great Britain you have a totally different role, as you only need to keep the "status quo" usually avoiding direct conflitc with other powers...that's not that much fun...

[Thebes]

Have to agree with you. I am new to the game and started out as Prussia in 1850. Made a couple of bad decisions. Broke the alliance with Austria right away and attacked France which had me for lunch. Now back on my feet and took Belgium. But France has Baden I plan to try to play as Austria next time. Can Austria have colonies? if so can they have them right off the bat? Sorry if I am too off topic.

[Jim-NC]

In the standard game, Austria can't have colonies unless they capture them.

[H Gilmer3]

People don't play the British Empire because their starting situation is so "blah". They're already #1 so your objective is not to blow it. That is not interesting to a lot of people. They don't want to be the best starting empire and just maintain that.

[HerrDan]

People don't play the British Empire because their starting situation is so "blah". They're already #1 so your objective is not to blow it. That is not interesting to a lot of people. They don't want to be the best starting empire and just maintain that.

Sure, maintaining the "status quo" isn't that fun at all haha.

[epaminondas]

As Jim says, Austria can't create colonies, and any that she does capture are left very boney by her inability to build important colony structures.
If you're still keen to play Austria, though, I'd recommend you try Kensai's GD mod - it takes you in a different direction and makes for a much richer game experience.

[HerrDan]

As Jim says, Austria can't create colonies, and any that she does capture are left very boney by her inability to build important colony structures.
If you're still keen to play Austria, though, I'd recommend you try Kensai's GD mod - it takes you in a different direction and makes for a much richer game experience.

I think that the designers made a different game experience for each factions and did it very well, someone wanting to play as Austria would probably not seek for colonies in his game, remember PoN is not (thank God and the Phils!) a sandbox game...

[epaminondas]

If you're interested in 'winning' however, that design decision pretty much closes the door on Austria. Since victory is determined by prestige point totals, and prestige points are primarily harvested from colonial activity, and Austria is permitted only minimal colonial activity, the Austrian player has almost no chance of winning the game. That's why I appreciate Kensai's mod so much - while game victory remains very much an uphill push, it provides the Austrian player with a parallel set of achievable goals that maintain interest throughout.

I should note, though, that I play the GC campaign almost exclusively and am in no position to comment on Austrian play in other scenarios.

[HerrDan]

If you're interested in 'winning' however, that design decision pretty much closes the door on Austria. Since victory is determined by prestige point totals, and prestige points are primarily harvested from colonial activity, and Austria is permitted only minimal colonial activity, the Austrian player has almost no chance of winning the game. That's why I appreciate Kensai's mod so much - while game victory remains very much an uphill push, it provides the Austrian player with a parallel set of achievable goals that maintain interest throughout.

I should note, though, that I play the GC campaign almost exclusively and am in no position to comment on Austrian play in other scenarios.

It's not true, I'm sorry to inform you, but the prestige harvested from colonial activity influences very little in "winning the game", most of it comes from industry, events, crisis and wars. I haven't played Kensai's "alternate reality" scenario, but from what I've seen on an AAR about it, it makes a superpower out of Austria and changes completelly the feel of playing with it, leading to a total alternate reality game experience. In any case that's just an observation from an outsider and based on Kensai's own comment about his mod.

What I mean is that it's IMO actually very good to have different experiences and challenges with each faction you play (and this was masterfully done by the game designer) within the realms of "what could have happened", but the player should not expect a complete "sandbox" like V2, where you can turn Serbia into a super power and dominate Europe when playing PoN, and this is in my opinion (specially as a history researcher myself) a great achievement by PoN. One of the best game ever I have to add, it just needs more attention and a gold version to shine even more.

Cheers.

[epaminondas]

It's not true, I'm sorry to inform you, but the prestige harvested from colonial activity influences very little in "winning the game", most of it comes from industry, events, crisis and wars.

That's an interesting revelation, Dan, and one largely at odds with the manual notes. I'll certainly check it out further - thanks for the new take on things.

[HerrDan]

That's an interesting revelation, Dan, and one largely at odds with the manual notes. I'll certainly check it out further - thanks for the new take on things.

You're welcome

[epaminondas]

Done a little checking and while it's possible that I've over-interpreted some sections of the manual I think I'll stick by my original position - mainly on the strength of the following.

To win, Austria must first not lose. The Austrian Empire has its hands full containing Prussia and trying to clip its
wings in Germany, managing a heterogeneous empire, trying to expand in the Balkans, keeping a grip on Italy, and
keeping an eye on Russia. Unless it is very successful in achieving these objectives, it will have few resources and
little attention to spare to use its limited means of colonization. Moreover, on the default game settings SOI prestige
penalties discourage colonization.

Winning by not losing seems a grim enough undertaking without entertaining the caution that,

in a game as large and complex as Pride of Nations, the journey is as important as the destination: rather than going strictly by the final Prestige score, you may decide to define Victory by more personal goals and terms (for example, developing Japan into an industrial power to compete with the West) or make decisions based on your view of the likely priorities and behavior of historical leaders.

If that's not a warning that some nations are effectively 'lost causes' I've never seen one. Then, finally,

Colonization takes a lot of time, money, and resources and may be contested both by the local inhabitants and other
powers, but it offers economic rewards in terms of resources and markets and great prestige. (My underlining)

If Austria doesn't have access to this source of great prestige and is committed to spending its early and mid game (and more) just trying not to lose, I reckon I'm entitled to conclude that's it's really there just to make up the numbers.

All that said, I'm not critical of the design for producing this outcome - in any game that professes some measure of historical accuracy there will be an inequality in the respective prospects of victory. I am critical of the design having been being launched in an unfinished and barely playable iteration - indeed, without the support offered by key contributors to this forum I'd hold that it would be altogether unplayable. But from my previous experiences with AGEOD and Paradox I'm fully inclined to lay that at the door of the latter.

[loki100]

Well PoN aims for historical (rather than Victoria's 'plausible'). I don't think Austria is as blocked as the section you quoted implies (more from the player guides than the actual manual). Its quite feasible to play it as remaining the German power and face down uppity Italians and Prussians (even if you skip Kensai's mod). Indeed there is a case to say that Austria is militarily too powerful, esp in AI-AI conflicts where it can sweep France out of the way with no problem.

The issue is that PoN works on the premise that your state's attitudes and governance cannot radically diverge. So Russia remains autocratic and so on. For Austria that means a fixation with Europe. This is perfectly moddable, after all we only know Austria's response to defeat in 1867. Quite feasible if it had won, its mind would have shifted to matters of colonial prestige - though only having Trieste presents a real constraint. So mod in a shift of focus and say the range of colonial cards that Germany gets in 1880 - no reason why not.

The other route, and with Austria this is quite feasible, is to take colonies. You should have the beating of France, so make them compensate you with their colonies. Negative SoI over turn flips to positive SoI as the world accepts the new status quo.

There are two playable nations that are both severely constrained. Belgium due to size and late entry into the colonial game and the Ottomans due to the long period (1870-1900 or so) when your Sultan is such an utter numpty. Beyond, within the framework of the game engine, you can do all sorts of critical things.

I think its unfair to describe PoN as 'barely playable' it is, with its flaws, completely immersing. That a certain other game company sold it too cheaply and effectively cut off the funds for its full development is indeed one of the real problems.

[epaminondas]

The issue is that PoN works on the premise that your state's attitudes and governance cannot radically diverge. So Russia remains autocratic and so on. For Austria that means a fixation with Europe. This is perfectly moddable, after all we only know Austria's response to defeat in 1867. Quite feasible if it had won, its mind would have shifted to matters of colonial prestige - though only having Trieste presents a real constraint. So mod in a shift of focus and say the range of colonial cards that Germany gets in 1880 - no reason why not.

I'm inclined to the view that victory over Prussia would have made Austria even more eurocentric so in fact I applaud this approach. But it does close doors and I think a player newly embarking on an Austrian Grand Campaign should be made aware of that. Without the modding you suggest I can still get a thoroughly enjoyable game out of Austria (especially with Kensai's 'upgrade') but I can't see a genuine prospect of 'winning' - and that's my only real point.

The other route, and with Austria this is quite feasible, is to take colonies. You should have the beating of France, so make them compensate you with their colonies. Negative SoI over turn flips to positive SoI as the world accepts the new status quo.

That's my mission at the moment, but I figure the lack of colonial cards is going to make development of colonies acquired early in the game next to impossible, while the acquisition of fully developed colonies late in the game will be prohibitively expensive in terms of victory points. Time will tell.

I think its unfair to describe PoN as 'barely playable' it is, with its flaws, completely immersing. That a certain other game company sold it too cheaply and effectively cut off the funds for its full development is indeed one of the real problems.

Yes, my comments in this regard are more of a whinge than an arguable point. I wouldn't dispute PoN's 'seductive' qualities for a moment; the fact that I'm still making time every night to go another round with it is ample testimony to that. It is, as you say, completely immersing. Which is why its inability to do simple things essential to its design philosophy and the operation of basic functions is so frustrating. Without the help I've had from you guys, I would have abandoned it long before it ever got its claws into me.

[TheDelegate]

I'm trying to play a Russia game lately, made it to June 1856 so far. I like the Russian position at game start, huge, untouchable and secure, with great potential for expansion both economically and territorially. Although my tech and policies are super backward, the sheer size of my armed forces and territory make it basically unfeasible for any opponent to really seriously threaten me. Pretty good game so far.

[GordonHix]

We've only really met the Minutemen and only one of them. Hard to say for sure what Brotherhood faction we're dealing with. I like the Brotherhood generally. Some of their members are total douchenozzels, but usually, as a whole, they're decent people. But so far, I'm the most interested in the Minutemen. What are they about? Who do they oppose? How strong are they? Preston Garvey and the Minutemen are my favorites so far.

[Egg Bub]

We've only really met the Minutemen and only one of them. Hard to say for sure what Brotherhood faction we're dealing with. I like the Brotherhood generally. Some of their members are total douchenozzels, but usually, as a whole, they're decent people. But so far, I'm the most interested in the Minutemen. What are they about? Who do they oppose? How strong are they? Preston Garvey and the Minutemen are my favorites so far.

What is a "douchenozzel" exactly?