Interface

[Ace]

The developers were more than receptive to beta input. I've had no previous beta experience, but I have found Pocus more than receptive to our inputs and implementing our suggestions most of the time. No one can expect that his view be accepted 100% of the time. It was their decision from the start to completely overhaul the interface, to lessen the number of buttons on the game screen. They accepted some of our suggestions like double clicking to get you to recruitable regions, no special orders flyouts while the same stack is selected, frozen flyouts for map overlays, memorized filters... These are only a fraction of tweaks suggested by the beta team and implemented by the developers. Overall look of the game is in the domain of their artistic freedom, one can like it and the other one will not. I am sorry you do not like it, but I doubt there will be any groundbreaking change over the issue.

[GlobalExplorer]

Of course not. It goes without saying that I don't expect anything to change because of my opinion.

In this case I just thought I might be the one who "throws the first stone", so that other people who dislike the interface as much as me, express their problems too. It might be that many more are around us, but believe that they are abnormal.

Oh and I also have been giving the task of reviewing the game for tacticularcancer. What I write there is within my journalistic freedom as well. Right now I am not so sure that I will review the game at all, or any future game with this interface. But I am trying to get to grips with the situation first, before I make rash decisions.

[Pocus]

I have read all this thread and I believe we listened to many suggestions during betas. We are still open to suggestions, but our time is short, as always been short and will probably always be. This is a parameter of importance when deciding something to implement or not.

I still don't really get why these filters are so horrible to you. In the latest patch, when you click on the filter button and then choose one, it stays there even if you close the whole interface! If you combine that with the filter on theaters (nationalities/ethnics for End All Wars), I see for all categories except infantries all buildable units at once, on my desktop computer screen (admittedly, if I was playing with a 1366x768 laptop, I would have to use the mouse wheel once).

Sure, if you want to calculate the worst possible number of clicks (not using filters), then you get staggering amount of clicking involved.

By the way, the cost of units will be sorted by ascending money cost in the next CW2 public beta patch, courtesy of EAW refactored development. See we are not that evil

[GlobalExplorer]

In the latest patch, when you click on the filter button and then choose one, it stays there even if you close the whole interface! If you combine that with the filter on theaters (nationalities/ethnics for End All Wars)

Which proves my point, that the things should stick. By the way, I have the latest official version 1.03, and I suspect 99% of players have not yet updated to the latest beta patch.

I still don't really get why these filters are so horrible to you.

I will try to explain that another time later, but not now. ok? For now let me just say it has to with too much workload and cognitive problems. Of course there are no 2 interfaces that are universally "good" or "bad", different people may actually prefer interfaces, but I am talking about things that create frustration compared to others that are just plain fun to use. In computer games it is very important that UIs have a certain "inherent" fun factor, ie it must be fun to just press buttons, colors must be tasty, etc.

From what I know about you, you seem to be someone who is playing your own games quite a lot, and you have played CW2, right? Because in my experience you learn most from using your software yourself, not just the same test cases to check correctness, but real usage. Ie finishing the complete CW2 campaign. So if you can honestly tell me that you completed the grand campaign and that you feel it was better interface than AACW, that would be a lot more convincing to me than the former beta testers telling me that they had the exact same frustrations at first, but in the end "realized" most people would like it more that way.

See we are not that evil

"evil" was not a word I used a single time, but I think that was funny
"shooting in the own foot" would be more like it
But it will not be the end of the world, yes.

[Captain_Orso]

I would like to clarify one thing. During beta and alpha testing the Recruiting screen was far less developed. It's not that it was as it is now and nothing was done to improve it. There were many steps of improvement.

With deadlines racing in, and I can assure you, not only the devs felt the urgency of these, efforts were put into things with more importance; and they still are. There has hardly been a day since release that testers and devs haven't been active in the beta forums.

As you are active in the field of SW development, I'm sure you understand the importance of setting priorities to meet deadlines; and that without deadlines no project well ever be completed.

One more point. Ideas are not considered because of the demanding ton of the complaining player nor how endearing he might request them. Five years on the forums have demonstrated to me that they have always been considered in respect to their merits; even when presented in the most caustic manner.

[GlobalExplorer]

One more point. Ideas are not considered because of the demanding ton of the complaining player nor how endearing he might request them.

What tells you that I am not already aware of this?

Five years on the forums have demonstrated to me that they have always been considered in respect to their merits; even when presented in the most caustic manner.

I can provide you some examples, from what I remember:

the question if NCP should have had a grand campaign
the question if PoN should ship with low resolution graphics
the question if PoN turn resolution and turn number is acceptable to most players
the question what the replacement screen in RuS adds to gameplay

[tripax]

So I did succeed at making a change to the recruitment panel gui that I like a lot. This change can probably be generalized to any of the files called "GUI*Panel.dfm" in the folder called "FrontEnd", so if you want to see more of your stack, make this change to "GUIStackPanel.dfm".

At the bottom of the file called "GUIRecruitPanel.dfm" the text read:

"...
object AgeDxFormData: TAgeDxFormDataD
AgeAnchors = aaDownLeft
OffsetX = 270
DataSetIdx = 0
GameState = 'stGUIRecruitPanel'
Layer = 95
UID = 50079
bg1024 = 'UnitPanel_1024.png'
bg1280 = 'UnitPanel_1280.png'
bg1440 = 'UnitPanel_1440.png'
bg1600 = 'UnitPanel_1600.png'
bg1920 = 'UnitPanel_1920.png'
za_StorageDesc1 = 'Unit Slot per resolution'
za_StorageVal1 = '5|7|8|10|12'
zb_StorageDesc2 = 'AbiPerUnit'
zb_StorageVal2 = '4'
zc_StorageDesc3 = 'Primary|Secondary filter graphic button'
zc_StorageVal3 = 'btn_filter_all|theater_all'
zd_StorageDesc4 = 'Main Primary filter button'
zd_StorageVal4 = '0|0'
ze_StorageDesc5 = 'y-offset for the lines of tab'
ze_StorageVal5 = '-50|-90|-130'
zf_StorageDesc6 = 'y-offset for the lines of tab labels'
zf_StorageVal6 = '-30|-70|-110'
zg_StorageDesc7 = 'Primary filter offset'
zg_StorageVal7 = '40|0'
zh_StorageDesc8 = 'Panel width'
zh_StorageVal8 = '532|746|960|1067|1388'
..."

For me, since my resolution is 1440, I can seemingly safely make the following change:

"
...
object AgeDxFormData: TAgeDxFormDataD
AgeAnchors = aaDownLeft
OffsetX = 110
DataSetIdx = 0
GameState = 'stGUIRecruitPanel'
Layer = 95
UID = 50079
bg1024 = 'UnitPanel_1024.png'
bg1280 = 'UnitPanel_1600.png'
bg1440 = 'UnitPanel_1440.png'
bg1600 = 'UnitPanel_1600.png'
bg1920 = 'UnitPanel_1920.png'
za_StorageDesc1 = 'Unit Slot per resolution'
za_StorageVal1 = '5|10|8|10|12'
zb_StorageDesc2 = 'AbiPerUnit'
zb_StorageVal2 = '4'
zc_StorageDesc3 = 'Primary|Secondary filter graphic button'
zc_StorageVal3 = 'btn_filter_all|theater_all'
zd_StorageDesc4 = 'Main Primary filter button'
zd_StorageVal4 = '0|0'
ze_StorageDesc5 = 'y-offset for the lines of tab'
ze_StorageVal5 = '-50|-90|-130'
zf_StorageDesc6 = 'y-offset for the lines of tab labels'
zf_StorageVal6 = '-30|-70|-110'
zg_StorageDesc7 = 'Primary filter offset'
zg_StorageVal7 = '40|0'
zh_StorageDesc8 = 'Panel width'
zh_StorageVal8 = '532|1067|960|1067|1388'
...
"

Now instead of only seeing 7 units I can recruit, I see 10 (see image below), the loss being that now the panel covers a bit of the minimap. Sadly, I haven't figured out how to make the images smaller, and I'm sure that having two rows is beyond what can easily be done in a mod. Height and width are set for various objects in this file, but experimenting with changing them didn't get me anywhere (at least not yet). Here is a screenshot:
[ATTACH]28262[/ATTACH]

Myself, I probably won't make this change to the decision panel because I use the minimap while implementing decisions. I could make this change to the stack panel, I'm not sure if I would like it. I think for those decisions and stacks, I might try increasing from 7 to 8 cards visible (note: one can only use a number of cards that currently exists unless one creates a new UnitPanel_****.png image to fit a new number of cards.

PS: If you make these changes, I think you need to keep your backup in a different folder or the game might try to read the backup somehow (if the backup name isn't sufficiently different from the original).

PPS: To cover less of the minimap, I've set "OffsetX = 210" for the decision, stack, and structure panels. Also, I've set my bg png to "bg1280 = 'UnitPanel_1440.png'", and I get to see 9 rather than 7 cards from those by setting: "za_StorageVal1 = '5|9|8|10|12'". Also, for the structures panel, I need to set "zd_StorageVal4 = '-100|-416|-416|-656|-896'". So now I get to recruit from 10 choices rather than 7 and my stacks, decisions, and structures panels have 9 rather than 7 cards each. Yay!

[GlobalExplorer]

Thanks for digging in the files, I wouldn't have the patience for this.

By changing these values, you probably squeeze in 50% more units (at max), until the panel uses the full width.

I changed some values for my resolution, 1680*1024 or 1600*1200, not sure which is which, but you should be able to unlock a few extra slots, until there is no screen space left, and until you obstruct other panels as in my screenshot.

For example:
OffsetX = 0
za_StorageVal1 = '..|..|..|15?|..'
zh_StorageVal8 = '..|..|..|1680?|..'

Well, not really ... But two or three extra slots should be possible with your technique, without making the rest useless

Good find

[tripax]

Yeah, you've set it to 12 cards, but your panel bg isn't wide enough, so it looks wonky. If you switch your bg to the larger one, the number of cards and the background of the panel will match. On the other hand, you could set it to 15 or 16 cards by the look of it, but there isn't a panel background that is long enough (and I'm not artist and won't be creating one). I tried to make my adjustment so that it looks a bit nicer and so I can still see the minimap, but I'm glad to have the moderate improvement. I'd still like 2 rows and smaller card images, though.

[GlobalExplorer]

I hope you stay on it and release a version that can be used by anone. I was just playing with the values, and the result is not a success

I set it to 15 actually, but it seems that is not possible.

[tripax]

I set it to 15 actually, but it seems that is not possible.

You are right, the code as it is only seems to work for up to 12 cards. I suppose this could be bumped up by adding objects (whatever they are) to that file, but it isn't my code so I'm not sure.

As far as a version that can be used for anyone, there are a couple issues. First, I'm hoping someone else (read: Pocus) could help with resizing, as I think that might be controlled in another file and I haven't figured it out and should be doing my real job. Second, hopefully I've given a good enough description of what to do that it serves as a stopgap for now. Third, I can't test changes, since I only have my resolution to look at.

In your case (and for everyone who currently sees 10 cards), I'd recommend setting "bg1600 = 'UnitPanel_1920.png'" and "OffsetX = 230". I think that will look nicer, although maybe you want OffsetX to be a bit different, I can't tell. Also, don't forget to set "zh_StorageVal8 = '532|746|960|1388|1388'".

All that said, I could create a set of files to represent different possible adjustments. But I think that people who would download it are mostly sophisticated enough to be able to do it themselves.

[GlobalExplorer]

Second, hopefully I've given a good enough description of what to do that it serves as a stopgap for now.

Yes, from your hints I have enough information to increase from 10 to 12 slots, a 20% increase.
That is not a solution to the problem I have, but as we say, "immer noch besser als in die hohle Hand geschissen" (I am not going to translate that )

should be doing my real job.

actually that's a good motto

[penlin]

This has turned into something of a flame war. The interface is decent, but it should be uncontroversial to say that there is a lot of room for improvement (lots of clicks to raise units, too much info in text form, etc etc). For starters, it would be nice if the unit raising filters had memory.

For all their depth, ageod titles are surprisingly friendly to newcomers in some ways. A cleaner interface may bring in some fresh customers.

[Durk]

penlin - I so agree. The new ACW2 is such a grand game. So much better as a simulation, as history and as a game than any of its predecessors from this company and all other publishers. The interfaces can be tweaked, but the new interfaces have many better functions than the old interfaces. I have already mentioned the highlighting of potential deployment regions. As with the command tabs, these are more complicated as you have to open them (more clicks dagnabbit), but then the options are richer.
I have never met a game that could not be improved, especially when I am chatting with fellow gamers about my latest loss. However, this game has such a solid take on the American Civil War that to rage against the small annoyances as if they were deal breakers distorts how much this game gets right.

As a student of the American Civil War, this game is the very best strategic level game on this war every published for computer play. Period.

Well, maybe not period, but for now and for what can now be purchased.

[Ace]

For starters, it would be nice if the unit raising filters had memory.

But they do in 1.04. I really don't know why people don't upgrade to the latest version.

[GlobalExplorer]

They will when it is no longer beta.

[Ace]

There is a difference between public beta and beta. Public beta is as stable as any official patch. The only difference is you install it with downloadable exe install file, not with in-game installer.

[Pocus]

An official patch have to be produced by the Slitherine team. They do on it installations tests but don't delve into 'gamerules' testing, this is for us. For game-wise, public beta is as good as official patch. You can safely try the latest incarnation of it.

As for your yesterday question, no I did not play in full a CW2 great campaign. I did play a lot of segments of it, coming from dozens of saved games of betas. When they find a bug, I get a save, and once I fix it, I usually take some time playing the game from their situation.

[GlobalExplorer]

Ok, will try the latest public beta patch.

Do play your game a bit more, pocus I wanted to make a video for you, one that shows building a large army with AACW, then another one that shows the same with CW2. But my time is short

[GlobalExplorer]

I have tested the patch. The flyouts still don't stay opened; we are not talking about the same thing. What you do is that you store the last input value, that is a small improvement but not what I mean.

Frankly, I don't understand your fascination with the flyout. The screen space is not used for anything else anyway, it only serves to introduce a lot of extra clicks

For example, to filter infantry in a department, and then change to cavalry I must click:
ALL --> NW --> Show All Units --> Infantry
when I want to look at cavalry Show All Units --> Cavalry

I have marked in bold the clicks which are superfluous (3/6). If you'd put the controls in toolbars instead of flyouts, there are only 3 clicks necessary, you have increased it to 6 because you decided you must have the buttons in flyouts. In fact for every "good" click you have introduced one "penalty click".

This is an example for things about this UI that I don't get. You defend the use of flyouts to free up screen space that is not used for anything, just black background.

[GlobalExplorer]

Pocus, I don't understand what you would lose if the panel would look like that all the time:

[GlobalExplorer]

And here is the version with multirows, smaller icons and hierarchical filters as tabs. Toolbars with icons would work as well, and look better.

Not pretty, but more was not possible in the few minutes

[GlobalExplorer]

By the way, I could live with your solution somehow if the flyouts stayed open until I close them.

But I don't want to click open again, and again and again .. when I already opened it, only when I have closed it.

That's what's getting on my nerves mostly.

[Z74]

My 5c:

The first step is to remove units you can't recruit due to restrictions (i.e. don't got no resources or money).
The second step is to work on the filters. They must match the DEPARTMENTS.
The third step is to divide by unit type (inf-cav-art-support).
The 4th step is to divide by location (i.e. foundry and recruiting centers).
The 5th step is to just list the icons in 2 horizontal lines.

I do not feel at ease with so many recruiting centers who can recruit so many and at the same time and would push for some more historical research but as of the UI that's all.

[tripax]

Pocus, I don't understand what you would lose if the panel would look like that all the time...

As it is in your image, the region buttons cover the scroll buttons, so those need to be moved a bit. Also it covers information about the total number of units that can be recruited (64 in the case of that screen you posted), although this a big loss. Given the current size of the buttons and the recruit panel, if someone's resolution only allows 6 cards, there might be too many buttons to fit above the recruit panel, so maybe the buttons need to be a bit smaller.

I'm curious if ageod/Pocus/whoever might make changes like this or even help us do so in mods. I don't expect ageod to devote any research hours to recruiting centers, for instance. But gui issues are something that might have more utility as they might help in other games. To me, the frontend/gui files don't seem especially self-explanatory, and I'm not sure what changes are even possible without changing something deeper in the code. I don't really have time to randomly change parameters and see what happens, I'm much happier to have the slightly bigger panels from my work yesterday, but that is probably it from me in this area (you can always let me know if you want help implementing my suggestion).

[GlobalExplorer]

Tripax, these are things that I completely ignored in my example. The text and the buttons can be very easily re-adjusted, that's not really a problem.

[GlobalExplorer]

I'm curious if ageod/Pocus/whoever might make changes like this or even help us do so in mods. I don't expect ageod to devote any research hours to recruiting centers, for instance. But gui issues are something that might have more utility as they might help in other games. To me, the frontend/gui files don't seem especially self-explanatory, and I'm not sure what changes are even possible without changing something deeper in the code. I don't really have time to randomly change parameters and see what happens, I'm much happier to have the slightly bigger panels from my work yesterday, but that is probably it from me in this area (you can always let me know if you want help implementing my suggestion).

I am pretty sure if we get him to play the campaign himself, he will change the interface

[Ace]

Pocus, I don't understand what you would lose if the panel would look like that all the time:

I'm pretty sure it would not work on low resolutions. For example, I once suggested that regional filters be by state and not by regions, but but there was not enough room for low resolutions.

[Ace]

And here is the version with multirows, smaller icons and hierarchical filters as tabs. Toolbars with icons would work as well, and look better.

Not pretty, but more was not possible in the few minutes

Interesting suggestion, but I do want to be able to read from which state the unit comes from. Is it readable, the units seem rather small...

[Gray Fox]

Here's a thought from left field. What if the present War Production screen were switched with the current flyout production scroll bar. The full screen War Production menu would then have the filter for unit type and all of the producable units that you could select with one click, like in AACW. Then the scroll list would contain all of the units that have been purchased, but not yet completely formed and could also have a filter as at present. You could move the units from the scroll bar to the location you want them to show up. So you would have all the features that the designers wanted only set up the way the players seem to want it.