Grousing about the lack of Promotions

[GraniteStater]

I am opening this on the main forum. My last message to RebelYell sums up my position:

***

I'm tellin' ya, this No Promotions thing is getting really old, though. I think we need to lobby more for the devs to take a look at it. It's just absurd.

By the time we've reached in our game, the Union should have had a decent chance to get Sherman bumped twice; Thomas; Hooker; Lyons; Meade - all potential Army Cdrs. Reynolds, Hancock, Gibbon, some others as 2*.

Jackson & Longstreet for 3*. Ewell, Early, Gordon, the usual crowd - I'm sure you could use them as 2*.

This is just plain silly after awhile. Again, for the Union, one of the historical dynamics that's supposed to be reflected is the eventual rise of competent and good leadership for responsible positions. To a lesser degree for the South, too.

Playing every single game stuck with the starting lineup is just cutting into the enjoyment. The South is supposed to be having problems in mid-game as Union numbers couple with improved Leadership. The Union is supposed to have to deal with the earlier rise of some Southern leaders.

***

Granted, our game has been a bit quiescent. However, my previous PbeM was a bloodbath, but the same pattern. My AI experience so far has not been rockin' with promotions, either.

In AACW, Hooker could usually take over in the East by mid-62. Sherman usually got to Corps command by the same time. Pap Thomas and others would step up. The CSA could see how Longstreet could do as an Army Cdr. Jackson, of course. Gordon as a Corps Cdr. Just Corps Cdrs in general, for the South.

Man, my people are threatening to quit and join the French in Mexico, just to have some rank & privileges.

[havi]

Hello GS

About this promotion thing in our pbem i got Longstreet *** forrest an 4 other generals to ** and we fought a lot. I think the promotions should b more it isnt fun anymore when one of your corps commander get killed u r have to wait 3 years to get a new one in there and u fight constatly it is like driving with the hand break on! i dont understand if u r the head of state in this game why old tom jefferson cant promote one or to guys in ** and abe cant promote one or two guys ***. Maybe u can promote couple of generals and loose VP's for that why not in RL there is officer schools where u can get those buttons in your collar and only action in there is what u see after the nigthclubs closes and still u r caple to lead people if u know what i mean!

[Captain_Orso]

It's not a game concept havi, it's a bug. You should be seeing leaders become eligible for promotion when they did well in a battle. In general if they were in a battle that was a lopsided victory and to a lesser extent even if they lost, but prevented heavy losses, especially against a larger force.

Generally if a leader has higher than average stats (average being 3-1-1) he will shine more in a battle compared to his compatriots with just average stats, although there are some statistical exceptions.

Are the leaders gaining experience points? IIRC for every hit a division commander's troops score in a battle he gets 5% of an experience point. So if his troops score 20 hits, he gains 1 XP.

Corp commanders gain in the same fashion, but gain 3% of and XP per hit; but of course they generally command between 2 and 5 division.

[RebelYell]

It's not a game concept havi, it's a bug. You should be seeing leaders become eligible for promotion when they did well in a battle. In general if they were in a battle that was a lopsided victory and to a lesser extent even if they lost, but prevented heavy losses, especially against a larger force.

Generally if a leader has higher than average stats (average being 3-1-1) he will shine more in a battle compared to his compatriots with just average stats, although there are some statistical exceptions.

Are the leaders gaining experience points? IIRC for every hit a division commander's troops score in a battle he gets 5% of an experience point. So if his troops score 20 hits, he gains 1 XP.

Corp commanders gain in the same fashion, but gain 3% of and XP per hit; but of course they generally command between 2 and 5 division.

Do the betas have these problems?

[havi]

what i can remember of that pbem against GS there where really no or little of experience stars gain for generals and i wasnt apple to promote Forest to 3*** ewen he fought allmoust every turn and i used him everywhere to kick GS..

[RebelYell]

You can work around this little bit but it is a boring game and takes a lot of the fun out.

[FelixZ]

Do the betas have these problems?

So far in 2 PBEM campaigns and 1 Tournament scenario, I have not experienced a difference in gaining rank numbers or promotions from previous experience with AACW. In one game as CSA Jackson was raised to a 3 star before the automatic raise to 2 star.

Games were started with either 1.02 or with 1.03. The 1.02's were updated to 1.03 (via BRS)when it became available.

[RebelYell]

So far in 2 PBEM campaigns and 1 Tournament scenario, I have not experienced a difference in gaining rank numbers or promotions from previous experience with AACW. In one game as CSA Jackson was raised to a 3 star before the automatic raise to 2 star.

Games were started with either 1.02 or with 1.03. The 1.02's were updated to 1.03 (via BRS)when it became available.

I got Jackson also, problem is getting others even if they get lopsided victories.

[FelixZ]

I got Jackson also, problem is getting others even if they get lopsided victories.

Others promotions remembered were Grant to 3 star; Sherman, Hooker & Prentis to 2 star. There were others in both factions - at least one 2 star promotion for CSA.

Strange that we are receiving different results. I will look more closely at battle congratulations.

[GraniteStater]

Oh, I get lotsa back slapping from the War Dept - just no new shoulder boards.

[FelixZ]

A quick look found the following battlefield promotions:

L April 61 start thru L May 62 as CSA
Jackson, Jackson, Winder, E. Johnson, Hindmand

L April 61 start thru E May 62 as USA
Grant, Thomas, Meagher, Wood, Hooker

West 62 Tournament thru L Aug 62 as USA
Sherman

[GraniteStater]

Well, I'm happy for those who seem to be getting them, but so far, for me, in one PbeM steeped in combat, one not so much, an AI game played to AutoVic in mid-63, and several other AI starts, both sides, which have run 'til late 62 or a bit more, I have had probably about six promotions - in all of them, put together. This cannot be Options, any settings, the Commodore 64 I modded to run this app, or anything else. This is something in the application. I have brought this up before - my small bit of polling and voluntary responses seem to agree with my lack of results. I hate to say it, FelixZ, but you are in a distinct minority, afaics.

I have broached this again, deliberately, to widen the user pool for usability testing. All are welcome to respond.

As stated above, for me, this is far from a few games. This has been the case in almost every game I've played in CW2. The only real exceptions I've seen are Grant for the Union & T. Jackson for the CSA. This is starting to look like the exception that proves the rule.

[Highlandcharge]

Hi there, I am playing a pbem as the Union and my promotions have been at a good level, I have posted a picture showing casualties below so you see how bloody the war has been so far... the date is late October 1863.. the following generals have had promotions..

Grant ***
Lyons ***
Couch **
Meade **
Ord **
Hancock **
Warren **
Cook **
Smith **
Curtis **
Hooker **
Farragut ***


[ATTACH]27703[/ATTACH]


Now I am also in a game as the Confederates, this game has been much much less bloody so I have have had only one promotion (Forrest **), below is a pic the the objective screen showing casualties... we are at 1863 early Jan

[ATTACH]27704[/ATTACH]


I really don't understand why people are having such a difference in promotions, is there maybe a difference between games started with 1.03 and continued on 1.04 RC4 and games started purely with 1.04RC4, my games are games started with 1.03 then continued 1.04RC4...

[GraniteStater]

I'm beginning to suspect exactly that. havi & I were 1.03 all the way, I believe; RY & I switched to RC4 halfway through.

I would like a lot of people to post here - get a good usability feedback.

Note yours is a July start, Highlandcharge - Loyalty starts out different from the April start, for one item.

Also note in your first example, only Lyons, other than Grant, has made it to 3*.

[tripax]

I'm not sure when I switched to 1.03, but I haven't switched to 1.04 yet. In my recent, 1.03 games, I think promotions might be a bit slow compared to vague memories of 1.02, but I'm not sure and I doubt it. In my current game it is early 1862 and Lyon in Mo, Grant in IL/KY and someone in Virginia have seen promotion in a relatively less bloody game.

[Ace]

In my tournament game with 1.03. I had Bragg, Polk, Smith, Stewart promoted in just 10 turns. Casualties were high, near the numbers Highlandcharge had in his full Campaign in two years. So it must be a matter of winning decisively few battles. Battles with lost enemy elements are especially rewarding...

[GraniteStater]

I don't know if you can conclude that, Ace. Everything else equal, ipso facto, fighting more is conducive to promotions. Pronounced victories are conducive, also. These things have held since AACW. But I've had more than a few starts, AI & human, and am seeing a remarkable lack of promotions. havi started as many fights as I did, and had few - and we had 1.2 million casualties by the end.

This is why I would like to see a lot of comments. Maybe I'm in the minority - but some sampling here & there before I started the thread has led me to believe that it's not just me.

I have a distinct feeling that (a) I, for one, would like to see more RC4 starts on my own, if not others, and (b) 1.04 might be a bit more friendly (I hope).

But I must repeat, I've had about eight starts of all kinds and it has been next to non-existent for me.

Also, if I may, the tourney is a different scenario. I have had at lest six April starts and two July starts. Nothing else. The scenario may be a contributing factor, so people need to post that.

[Ace]

I was merely saying it is not a bug that makes promotions unavailable. So promotions are happening, their frequency could maybe be upped a bit...

[Eugene Carr]

I had 3 * to ** promotions last night.
JC Davis whose previous promotion I fluffed so he had most of the points already got promoted over the commanding general * Logan, defensive battle outside Fort Pillow high CSA casualties but no wipeouts.

George Thomas got his for stemrolling the Bowling Green Militia with 4 moderately sized divisions

My modded Prentiss got a generic promotion, again he had stacked up points before so only needed 1 pt this time, 2 seperate little battles where CSA cavalry units were destroyed, *** Grant was in direct command , Prentiss's division was the only one with sharpshooters so I wonder if getting the first shot in got him the credit.

It seems to me that the rate is slowed down from AACW mostly the congratulation message means 1 seniority point. Also that the CO gets the lions share of credit whether that gets passed on if they can't promote or just get sucked up I'm not sure.

Just as an aside I've had 2 *** killed in battle in this game (Pope and Rosecrans) so I'm desperately hoping I can get Thomas promoted!
Both of the fatalities were in direct command of Corps sized 'armies'

S!

[RebelYell]

I had 3 * to ** promotions last night.
JC Davis whose previous promotion I fluffed so he had most of the points already got promoted over the commanding general * Logan, defensive battle outside Fort Pillow high CSA casualties but no wipeouts.

George Thomas got his for stemrolling the Bowling Green Militia with 4 moderately sized divisions

My modded Prentiss got a generic promotion, again he had stacked up points before so only needed 1 pt this time, 2 seperate little battles where CSA cavalry units were destroyed, *** Grant was in direct command , Prentiss's division was the only one with sharpshooters so I wonder if getting the first shot in got him the credit.

It seems to me that the rate is slowed down from AACW mostly the congratulation message means 1 seniority point. Also that the CO gets the lions share of credit whether that gets passed on if they can't promote or just get sucked up I'm not sure.

Just as an aside I've had 2 *** killed in battle in this game (Pope and Rosecrans) so I'm desperately hoping I can get Thomas promoted!
Both of the fatalities were in direct command of Corps sized 'armies'

S!

That seems to be a major problem in many fights.

[FelixZ]

I was merely saying it is not a bug that makes promotions unavailable. So promotions are happening, their frequency could maybe be upped a bit...

The consensus is that big battles with heavy casualties are a way to achieve battlefield promotions. But some players are not receiving expected promotions. The players not receiving promotions seem to be describing games with wild action: large wins - large losses - large wins - large losses - etc..

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In my USA tournament game (West scenario), Pope 3* began with Seniority 14 and Experience 0. He participated in two battles.

The first was a victory resulting in Seniority 12 and Experience 6.

The second was a defeat resulting in Seniority 17 and Experience 0.

Since Pope began as a 3* promotions were not available. But let's assume he had begun as a 2*.

Question - after the second battle, what Seniority is required for Pope to receive a promotion - 11 or 14?

If '11' is still required but Pope is at Seniority 17, could this help explain why some players are not receiving promotions?

[Captain_Orso]

Very good assessment Felix Z! That might be at least part of what is happening.

IIRC in AACW a leader only lost seniority if he were blamed for a loss --you would get a clear message for this-- or if he were passed over during promotions. Plus the only way that you lost experience was if you were promoted, in which case you would only carry over a percentage of your previous XP's.

[GraniteStater]

I was merely saying it is not a bug that makes promotions unavailable. So promotions are happening, their frequency could maybe be upped a bit...

Yeah, I don't think it's a bug per se, either, just that the criteria need goosing, I think. Something needs examination, imho.

[GraniteStater]

November 1864

RebelYell & I just had two Turns a-filled with scrappin' 'n snarlin', culminating in a three-rounder at Richmond involving 165K troops all told.

If I read his email rightly - no promos. None for me, either.

[FelixZ]

November 1864

RebelYell & I just had two Turns a-filled with scrappin' 'n snarlin', culminating in a three-rounder at Richmond involving 165K troops all told.

If I read his email rightly - no promos. None for me, either.

Would it be possible for you or Rebel Yell to furnish the .hst files before and after the battle to me for analysis? If yes, send me a PM and I'll send back my email

[Durk]

Like Highlandcharge, I have not found leader promotion any different than other games of Ageod. I must win, then promotions happen.

[GraniteStater]

Would it be possible for you or Rebel Yell to furnish the .hst files before and after the battle to me for analysis? If yes, send me a PM and I'll send back my email

PM sent.

[Jim-NC]

My experience has been that elements must be destroyed for promotions. It appears that it is not enough have caused casualties, it appears that you need to destroy elements. In my full campaign PBEM, I had Huger up for a promotion, but he had to personally shoot someone. I say that, as in the battle report screen, he had the little medal portrait, showing that his units' deadly fire destroyed an enemy element. He was loose in the stack. I choose not to promote him at that time, and he never again got the promotion ability. He was in several more battles, but never was promotable. That was the only time he was eligible for promotion.

I seem to remember several mass promotions (once time, my entire corps was eligible - all 5 commanders [corps + 4 divisions] - they destroyed a corps that was landing at Memphis). I think it bears more investigation, to prove if my theory is true.

[Gray Fox]

Here are some pertinent exerpts from the AACW Wiki, although it is not clear if these still apply in CW2:

"In combat, experience "points" are gained when an element inflicts losses greater than it suffers. Leaders gain experience "points" in combat, when elements under their command inflict more losses than they suffer.
In both cases there is a bit of randomness factored in so that there is no hard and fast threshold for gaining experience "points".
In order for a unit or leader to gain an experience level, they must accrue a minimum of five (5) experience points. Again, a bit of randomness comes into play here. Five experience points are the minimum number needed. A unit or leader could accumulate up to twenty (20) experience "points' before actually receiving a new level of experience."

"A battle can end up in a draw if neither side withdrew. If there was a winner (i.e. the non-retreating force, irrespective of losses), he will pursue the retreating force and inflict casualties in the process. These losses are much greater if the loser routed instead of executing an orderly withdrawal.
In addition, winning leaders gain experience, progressively increasing their attributes and even sometimes getting new special abilities. Leaders on the losing side suffer from a slight reduction in attributes."

Thus, if a battle does not end with one side withdrawing or routing, then no leader experience is gained. If one side does withdraw or rout, but the 'winning' side took more casualties than it inflicted, then again no leader experience is gained. So if you employ "All out attack" or "Hold at all cost", your leaders may win a lot and never be promoted due to the loss differential. It seems that leaders are only promoted if the other side withdraws and their own units inflicted more casualties than they took.

[RebelYell]

November 1864

RebelYell & I just had two Turns a-filled with scrappin' 'n snarlin', culminating in a three-rounder at Richmond involving 165K troops all told.

If I read his email rightly - no promos. None for me, either.

Best one for me was where I won and got only under 2000 casualties vs your 10.000, not a single promotion.