Ah, the Magic of Teleportation

[The Red Baron]

I'm sitting in HF with a powerful corps under Hamilton staring at a empty Winchester, VA for several turns. The surrounding regions are empty of CSA troops. I have enough CAV and other troops to raise the fog of war all the way down to Richmond. In fact, the only enemy stacks I see are sitting in Richmond guarding the capital during late June and early July 1862 when the Northern Papers are hot and heavy for a Richmond offensive. I order Hamilton into Winchester expecting an easy victory over the auto-garrison unit that will probably appear. Instead the USS Enterprise beams P.G.T. and his entire army into the region only a day or two after my arrival. We fight and I lose, suffering thousands of casualties in process. It was frustrating, and normally I wouldn't bother posting about such an incident (assuming I had missed the stack somewhere), but this is the second time I've experienced the "magic stack" phenomenon.

In a previous turn, Athena had abandoned both Winchester and Manassas. I had enough detection to know the surrounding regions were clear of enemy stacks, giving me enough time to capture them and entrench a little before the inevitable counterattack; so, I lunged for both. In both regions Athena hit my stacks on the same turn I in which I entered them. This first incident is the reason I kept Hamilton in HF several turns before moving, waiting to see if any CSA stacks would reappear suddenly. Has anyone else seen this behavior? Is this an undocumented way to help Athena provide a challenge to players? Is there any way for an enemy stack to remain totally hidden even if the detection level is 2+? I see stacks screened from my recon where I have no idea of unit composition or strength, just the leaders present, but I can still see them.

[Citizen X]

In the current tournament I had an encounter with a stack that might was invisible to me. I didn't however have such total control over the intelligence in the area as you describe it. Should have been enough to see that stack, but I can't know for sure.

[Jim-NC]

I'm sitting in HF with a powerful corps under Hamilton staring at a empty Winchester, VA for several turns. The surrounding regions are empty of CSA troops. I have enough CAV and other troops to raise the fog of war all the way down to Richmond. In fact, the only enemy stacks I see are sitting in Richmond guarding the capital during late June and early July 1862 when the Northern Papers are hot and heavy for a Richmond offensive. I order Hamilton into Winchester expecting an easy victory over the auto-garrison unit that will probably appear. Instead the USS Enterprise beams P.G.T. and his entire army into the region only a day or two after my arrival. We fight and I lose, suffering thousands of casualties in process. It was frustrating, and normally I wouldn't bother posting about such an incident (assuming I had missed the stack somewhere), but this is the second time I've experienced the "magic stack" phenomenon.

In a previous turn, Athena had abandoned both Winchester and Manassas. I had enough detection to know the surrounding regions were clear of enemy stacks, giving me enough time to capture them and entrench a little before the inevitable counterattack; so, I lunged for both. In both regions Athena hit my stacks on the same turn I in which I entered them. This first incident is the reason I kept Hamilton in HF several turns before moving, waiting to see if any CSA stacks would reappear suddenly. Has anyone else seen this behavior? Is this an undocumented way to help Athena provide a challenge to players? Is there any way for an enemy stack to remain totally hidden even if the detection level is 2+? I see stacks screened from my recon where I have no idea of unit composition or strength, just the leaders present, but I can still see them.

You can check to see what Athena did last turn, and where any stacks came from. I haven't played that much against Athena, so don't know about the behavior your describing.

[The Red Baron]

I take it that you mean the battle log, yes? Unfortunately, it happened more than 1 turn ago; so, I don't have access to it, but I'll remember to look next time.

[The Red Baron]

In the current tournament I had an encounter with a stack that might was invisible to me. I didn't however have such total control over the intelligence in the area as you describe it. Should have been enough to see that stack, but I can't know for sure.

It's possible I missed the stack in the Shenandoah Valley, which is in FOW most of the time; that would explain the disaster at Winchester if Athena was moving into the region at the same time. The attack at Manassas is a different story. I'm sure I was good to go; surrounding regions were clear. Athena seemed to have a sixth sense and hit me at the same time I took the bait; very suspicious but maybe a coincidence.

[ArmChairGeneral]

I see stacks screened from my recon where I have no idea of unit composition or strength, just the leaders present, but I can still see them.

In my experience it is pretty hard to walk around undetected if there are cav nearby, but for all I know there are undetected enemy stacks lurking all over the place: if I can't detect them, I would never know.

Detection is opposed by the enemy's Hide values. A 2 detection usually lets you know that a stack is there, because most units' Hide stats are not that great, but it isn't guaranteed, and I think there is a random element as well. It is possible that the stack had a combo of bonuses, luck, size and composition that put their Hide too high for your detection. There are CSA generals with Hide buffs in the East, I think PGT is one, can't remember for sure: as the CSA player against Athena Hide buffs aren't that useful.

Still, your situation is unusual: large formations get a Hide malus, and are full of reg. infantry who don't Hide well. A stack with a Hide of 3 (hard to get) is pretty good at going unseen, but these are usually cav/irreg stacks. It is also possible they railed in from a region you couldn't see well enough (walking the last bit into Winchester, of course). Could they have been inside the city? You get less detailed intel on units in structures, and the intel you do get is easy to overlook.

I think Jim-NC was referring to backing up to the turn in question via the Load screen and then switching sides (you will want to copy and rename the current save in windows first so you can return to the present turn when you are done). You can then see where those stacks came from. Edit: And what their Hide values were.

[Ace]

If CSA had rail links all the way to Winchester intact, Athena could have railed a lot of troops from the areas of the map you do not see. I do not know if CitizenX is talking about his tournament game with me, but that is what I did in that game. I completed a march in 2 turns, under the FOW, using boats and rails, form Fayetteville,AR to Macon,AR surprising Union army in the process.

[ArmChairGeneral]

The stated design philosophy is that the AI cannot cheat beyond the advantages you grant her in settings; she plays by the same rules the player does. Since that (ostensibly) rules out teleportation, there must be logical explanations.

To me Manassas sounds straightforward, I think it was probably just a case of Athena railing back in from somewhere beyond your view. Leaving it unprotected was probably in response to something that you did elsewhere; she is easily distracted but will rush everything back as soon as she is satisfied, and it sounds like she got there just in time. You must have been in Orange or Red posture (to take the city) whereas she was repositioning in Blue posture; bummer. Richmond is like 10 days by rail from Manassas, so unless it took you 11 days to march from Alexandria, her stack probably came from somewhere closer.

I have never seen Union Athena lay that subtle of a trap, so my guess is you just got unlucky with the timing.

In Winchester, it is possible that you simply couldn't detect the stack, (bad weather increases Hide too, IIRC) but more likely that they too came from elsewhere. The AI has a speed advantage over you depending on the AI Ranking, (Sgt, LT, Col) and the CSA has good leaders in the Valley too, so it's very possible that she could have beaten you there despite the river she has to cross. Add in an extra day or two of rail travel to get her to Strasburg in the first place, and she could have been as many three regions away from Winchester, which is 4 regions from HF where your nearest detectors are (unless you have scout stacks south in the Valley).

[GraniteStater]

Richmond is like 10 days by rail from Manassas

I sincerely hope not. Using one Region per Day for RR movement, I count five. Please correct me if 1 Region/Day doesn't apply to the CSA.

[Captain_Orso]

You're both wrong. From Richmond by rail it's 4 days to Manassas (Richmond, Louisa, Albermarle, Culpeper, Manassas). From there up to Strasburg is another 3 days (Manassas, Clark, Shenandoah, Strasburg).

There is no rail line between the upper valley and Winchester! Troops arriving from Richmond would have to rail through an enemy held Manassas, (theoretically possible, maybe, but I doubt it), and then into the South Fork Shenandoah, to march across the Shenandoah River and into Winchester. Or rail all the way up to Strasburg (one day longer per RR) and march into Winchester without marching across the Shenandoah River.

A huge force railing into Strasburg from Richmond (7 days) and then marching to Winchester (another 3 to 5 days, if the weather and ground are good) could reach Winchester in 10 days, but no faster, unless you're Jackson.

[GraniteStater]

Probably was looking at C-ville & forgot you don't need it.

Some of the rail connex are subtle - sneaky, even. For instance, occupying C-nooga does not deny RR to Knoxville from Atlanta.

[Pocus]

I don't remember having coded 'teleporting armies'. This might be a bug, but I doubt. Or fast rail travel. Athena is also planning its move without looking at what you put in your ORD file. Can't be MTSG here I guess.

[The Red Baron]

What made me suspicious was the timing. In 3 separate instances, Athena re-entered the abandoned regions at the same moment as I did (from regions undiscovered). In one of the examples, I waited a couple of turns before making my move. Three times seemed a little too much for coincidence. I wondered if the AI might have knowledge of a player's move in order to "head him off at the pass" and provide a greater challenge, but Pocus has put to rest my questions on that score with info about the ORD file.

I have noticed that the difference in coloration for regions which remain in FOW vs. those that do not is somewhat subtle (on my monitor at least). It could be my untrained, over-eager eye missed something; i.e. the region was in FOW, but I thought I had recon on it.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Rail move is 1 region per day both sides, I was going from (faulty) memory on the distance from Richmond (my game isn't working right now) so if it is 4 then it is 4. I also thought the river was between Strasburg and Winchester, but I guess not, again no map to look at right now. The point was that in the case of Manassas it is entirely plausible that they railed in (the CSA had MC in Manassas and thus could rail in rather than march) and beat the Union into the region. Manassas is a high priority for the AI, it won't go undefended long, and the scenario described by the OP is consistent with Athena simply returning to where she was.

In terms of marching to Winchester from Strasburg, it would take the same time as the Union to march from Harpers Ferry assuming both have wagons and artillery slowing them down (if I remember the map correctly). But, since the AI has a movement bonus and there are quality generals in the Valley then the AI should win the footrace, and already be present when the Union arrives in Orange posture, initiating a battle. They might even have enough leeway to make a couple of rail moves from further down the valley and still get there first or on the same day. Again, I think this is a plausible explanation for Red Baron's result; the stack in question was simply outside his view.

I think a big thing that is going on here is that Athena doesn't usually abandon important regions for long, especially when there is an enemy Corps sitting in the next region. If she moved away, it was to do something specific, and when she was satisfied, she headed right back (unless she was intentionally trying to trick the player, which would be awesome!). So, if the AI seemingly abandons a position that she thinks is important, we should expect that she will be returning soon. Winchester isn't that important, which is probably why she wasn't in such a hurry to get back compared to Manassas.

In general the East is crowded and has a complicated map. It is hard to know exactly where enemy forces are (scouting is dangerous there) and even harder to predict where/when they are going to turn up on the next turn. Nasty surprises abound.

I am really curious where those stacks came from, and what drew them away from Manassas in the first place.

[Jim-NC]

I was indeed talking about looking at Athena's turn. Depending on your settings, you have several back up folders, and can go back several turns as see a particular move that she made. All you have to do is load her turn (from a prior back up folder). This will allow you to see how that stack showed up when it did.

[John S. Mosby]

If CSA had rail links all the way to Winchester intact, Athena could have railed a lot of troops from the areas of the map you do not see.

I thought they were railed in too. Besides Lee and Grant were caught off guard a few times too. It's part of war.
Jim's idea should shed some light on what really happened. Let us know.

[Captain_Orso]

Jim is right. Instead of guessing and speculating, the only real way to KNOW is to look at Athena's moves in the previous turns.

[The Red Baron]

I keep 12 backup turns, so I'll go back to check. It's towards the end of '62 now, and this happened soon after corps became active, so I may not have the turn in question. Ironically, I never thought of loading Athena's side, since knowledge of her positions would inevitably give me a unfair advantage, but this happened many moons ago. It's in the history books now.

[John S. Mosby]

I wish there was an easier way to go back a few turns other than move and rename file folders. If there is, I don't know aboit it. It would be nice if program would allow you to save multiple turns of the same campaign and make them available on the load screen.

[Captain_Orso]

I keep 12 backup turns, so I'll go back to check. It's towards the end of '62 now, and this happened soon after corps became active, so I may not have the turn in question. Ironically, I never thought of loading Athena's side, since knowledge of her positions would inevitably give me a unfair advantage, but this happened many moons ago. It's in the history books now.

The maximum number of turns an original (non-modded) scenario can have is 114.

I'm not sure what the slider allows to be set, but you can manually set the value up to at least 999. This is what I do.

The variable should be in ..\CW2\Settings\General.opt and is named "sysBackupNum =". Set the value to what ever you want so that you will always have the saves you need.

Each turn's save should not be more than 10mb, an probably closer to 7mb.

If every turn of a full campaign starting in April were played you would still need only 855 mb. This is without creating replys though.

[Captain_Orso]

I wish there was an easier way to go back a few turns other than move and rename file folders. If there is, I don't know aboit it. It would be nice if program would allow you to save multiple turns of the same campaign and make them available on the load screen.

Yes, it would be nice to always be able to go back at any time to review a turn or break the turn out and start replaying a scenario from that point-in-time.

Along with that, having on set of ..\Settings files under ..\CW2 for default settings, and when a scenario is started one set under ..\MyGames\Install_Directory\CW2\Settings for scenario specific settings, plus the ..\Log directory so that a game could have unique game settings without having to change them all the time, logs from scenarios you are playing don't get overwritten by another scenario you might be playing in parallel or when testing things, and so the AI logs don't get overwritten by the same things, which can cause the AI to forget what multi-turn plans it might have been following for some units.

[The Red Baron]

Well, I am officially observationally challenged. In the HF debacle, P.G.T. and his army lay hiding in the Shenandoah Valley (in FOW). Athena just happened to be moving back to Winchester at the same moment I chose to attack; coincidence. In the Manassas debacle, Athena moved for one turn into Clarke, VA, which was in FOW for me (must have seen something that grabbed her curiosity), and I chose to rush in right away and grab it. She moved back the very next turn, and we had an unpleasant (for me) meeting engagement. The somewhat subtle shading of regions in FOW stung me both times. I'll need to pay closer attention and re-position my CAV regiments.

[The Red Baron]

I'm not sure what the slider allows to be set, but you can manually set the value up to at least 999. This is what I do.

The variable should be in ..\CW2\Settings\General.opt and is named "sysBackupNum =". Set the value to what ever you want so that you will always have the saves you need.

Slider will only let you save 12 turns. I'll keep your post with my crib sheets. I can't foresee a need for a whole game's worth of backup turns, but an entire year could be useful.

[GraniteStater]

Well, I am officially observationally challenged. In the HF debacle, P.G.T. and his army lay hiding in the Shenandoah Valley (in FOW). Athena just happened to be moving back to Winchester at the same moment I chose to attack; coincidence. In the Manassas debacle, Athena moved for one turn into Clarke, VA, which was in FOW for me (must have seen something that grabbed her curiosity), and I chose to rush in right away and grab it. She moved back the very next turn, and we had an unpleasant (for me) meeting engagement. The somewhat subtle shading of regions in FOW stung me both times. I'll need to pay closer attention and re-position my CAV regiments.

The Military Control filter on the map helps with FoW/NonFow distinctions, I think. The boundaries can be a bit fuzzy, but mousing over helps a little, although still quite 'pastelly'; maybe it's my rig.

[Pocus]

Athena, as an AI is more restless and less focused in its move than a player, so suffering from 'back and forth' effect sometime, even if a lot of variables incite 'her' to stick to multi-turns behaviors. Probably you get caught sometime in that, wondering: why is she returning precisely this turn when she left 2 turns ago. A human player would not play like that...

As for number of backup turns, the more you have, the more time is needed to rename them all when a new turn advance, so don't go overboard, Cpt Orso way, unless time is of no importance to you. It probably mean that Cpt Orso is an Elven bear...

[Captain_Orso]

Yeah, I don't like to throw anything away no matter how long a turn takes; and those green tights are killing me too