OK, explain THIS

[GraniteStater]

From the last turn in our PbeM (RebelYell and I). The set up - Lee with the ANV is in Clarke,VA; there's a Reb Corps in Cupeper (Longstreet, IIRC); and a measly militia unit in Fredericksburg, opposite a two Div Corps under Hamilton in Stafford. Hmmm...bait time? Geez, he can't MTSG to that non-Corps...go for it, I said, see what happens.

This is the email I just sent RebelYell - I hope it explains what happened (the BR showed GW Smith's Corps, which arrived during processing, from Richmond, probably - OK, GW was entering F-burg and took on Hamilton, that's the essence).

Email (inverted chronology):


GS:

I really, really, should've known better. You suckered me but good at Fredericksburg.

But the Battle Report is just wrong. Are the I/C/A numbers supposed to be authoritative, or what? In AACW, they were almost purely 'flavor' - the real strength comparisons were the elements engaged, etc.

You did not have 74K Infantry there. You had one Div, a large Cav Bde and loose arty. You did not have 240 cannons there. If it was an MTSG with practically the whole ANV, then it should show it, but that's what's not displayed. Maybe I'll post this, too.

******

From: RY
ANV should be there I confirm.

*****

The BR shows one Corps engaged for the Rebs: GW Smith. OTOH, the 'raw numbers' show, well, the entire ANV's I/C/A.

This is a contradiction in display, one way or the other. Either the whole ANV got involved and it's not showing it, or the 'raw numbers' are being pulled from the database and being displayed, which is undesirable, to say the least.

And, if all these are true, then how was the battle calculated and resolved? With GW Smith alone, or the whole bloody army?

Furthermore, look at the Replay again. It should show GW pulling into town and then parking in a sandbagged position - but, for one thing, the BR shows a less than 100% trench for the CSA. Now, yes, GW could've nestled into a level 3 trench already occupied by the militia there, that's legal, almost expected. But why the BR trench percentage, then?


Now look at the current map. It shows GW in sandbags. This is the only explanation I can think of: GW Smith arrived and you had told him to merge/occupy the militia's position, already entrenched. He arrives and is engaged, whilst outside the trenches. He wins the fight and occupies the trenches. Is the militia in the trenches with GW? - they'd have to be, because, otherwise, during or after the fight, the militia went for a few beers in town - an order you can't give, not in the middle of processing, that's impossible. If you had put the militia in town before the Turn, i. e., your .ord file, or he didn't enter the trenches, then there should have been zippo for trenches [hence the 70% Trench Level the BR showed - GS] and GW should not be sandbagged right now, 'cuz my intel is showing no engineering units and afaics, you don't have any Leaders there who have the Ability. So they must be in the trench with GW - "Also here:"


And, on top of all that, if MTSG did occur (again, not displayed on the BR), they MTSGed to support a Corps, one which wasn't even in the Region at the start of the Turn!!!!

Truly awesome and magical.

P. S. - and if Lee's men under him in Clarke did show up for the fight, again, not displayed on the BR, then they did so 'on the fly', while moving from Clarke to Culpeper. To support a fellow Corps that wasn't even in the Region on Day 1 of the Turn.

Longstreet I could understand - he was in Culpeper. He wasn't shown on the BR, either, though - the BR shows just GW Smith engaged.

Something is wrong, just plain wrong. Either it's a display issue or we should all be aware that MTSG can occur anytime, anywhere, from anywhere, out of nowhere, even from supporting stacks who were two Regions away at he start of the Turn, supporting a Corps that wasn't even in the target Region at the start of the Turn.

Call me grumpy, but this don't seem right.

[RebelYell]

From the last turn in our PbeM (RebelYell and I). The set up - Lee with the ANV is in Clarke,VA; there's a Reb Corps in Cupeper (Longstreet, IIRC); and a measly militia unit in Fredericksburg, opposite a two Div Corps under Hamilton in Stafford. Hmmm...bait time? Geez, he can't MTSG to that non-Corps...go for it, I said, see what happens.

This is the email I just sent RebelYell - I hope it explains what happened (the BR showed GW Smith's Corps, which arrived during processing, from Richmond, probably - OK, GW was entering F-burg and took on Hamilton, that's the essence).

Email (inverted chronology):


GS:

I really, really, should've known better. You suckered me but good at Fredericksburg.

But the Battle Report is just wrong. Are the I/C/A numbers supposed to be authoritative, or what? In AACW, they were almost purely 'flavor' - the real strength comparisons were the elements engaged, etc.

You did not have 74K Infantry there. You had one Div, a large Cav Bde and loose arty. You did not have 240 cannons there. If it was an MTSG with practically the whole ANV, then it should show it, but that's what's not displayed. Maybe I'll post this, too.

******

From: RY
ANV should be there I confirm.

*****

The BR shows one Corps engaged for the Rebs: GW Smith. OTOH, the 'raw numbers' show, well, the entire ANV's I/C/A.

This is a contradiction in display, one way or the other. Either the whole ANV got involved and it's not showing it, or the 'raw numbers' are being pulled from the database and being displayed, which is undesirable, to say the least.

And, if all these are true, then how was the battle calculated and resolved? With GW Smith alone, or the whole bloody army?

Furthermore, look at the Replay again. It should show GW pulling into town and then parking in a sandbagged position - but, for one thing, the BR shows a less than 100% trench for the CSA. Now, yes, GW could've nestled into a level 3 trench already occupied by the militia there, that's legal, almost expected. But why the BR trench percentage, then?


Now look at the current map. It shows GW in sandbags. This is the only explanation I can think of: GW Smith arrived and you had told him to merge/occupy the militia's position, already entrenched. He arrives and is engaged, whilst outside the trenches. He wins the fight and occupies the trenches. Is the militia in the trenches with GW? - they'd have to be, because, otherwise, during or after the fight, the militia went for a few beers in town - an order you can't give, not in the middle of processing, that's impossible. If you had put the militia in town before the Turn, i. e., your .ord file, or he didn't enter the trenches, then there should have been zippo for trenches [hence the 70% Trench Level the BR showed - GS] and GW should not be sandbagged right now, 'cuz my intel is showing no engineering units and afaics, you don't have any Leaders there who have the Ability. So they must be in the trench with GW - "Also here:"


And, on top of all that, if MTSG did occur (again, not displayed on the BR), they MTSGed to support a Corps, one which wasn't even in the Region at the start of the Turn!!!!

Truly awesome and magical.

P. S. - and if Lee's men under him in Clarke did show up for the fight, again, not displayed on the BR, then they did so 'on the fly', while moving from Clarke to Culpeper. To support a fellow Corps that wasn't even in the Region on Day 1 of the Turn.

Longstreet I could understand - he was in Culpeper. He wasn't shown on the BR, either, though - the BR shows just GW Smith engaged.

Something is wrong, just plain wrong. Either it's a display issue or we should all be aware that MTSG can occur anytime, anywhere, from anywhere, out of nowhere, even from supporting stacks who were two Regions away at he start of the Turn, supporting a Corps that wasn't even in the target Region at the start of the Turn.

Call me grumpy, but this don't seem right.

Lee took personal command of Longstreets Corp, he arrived with just Traveller in Culpeper, he was there to support Smith if he was attacked moving in Fredericksburg.
Jackson was coming behind with the other wing of the ANV and all the army artillery to push over the river even if the enemy was not in retreat.

[GraniteStater]

And also:

Prentiss was leading a small three Bde Div in the battle. There was a second battle, where Hamilton engaged just Jackson. The BR for that shows no slash marks for Prentiss's Div and the Heatrs & Crosses do not show that the Div was wiped out - nor anything about Prentiss, either.

In the Messages, Prentiss is WIA. Fine, although the BR doesn't show it. Yet, the three Bdes are just gone - they're not assigned to the other two surviving Divs, nor loose.

So the BR is not showing Really Bad Stuff for Prentiss's Div, but he's WIA and his Div is wiped out.

THERE IS SOMETHING SCREWY WITH BATTLE REPORTS.

I've had my 'huh's before, but this one is egregious.

Are the raw numbers for I/C/A authoritative, or just flavor? This one does need to be answered, authoritatively, I beseech.

Why are the displays not consistent with Messages or the lack thereof?

Look, I can deal with Magical Support from Nowhere (kinda), but I would like to know just what the heck happened. If I'm gonna get run over by 18 wheelers, I don't think it's too much to ask for the license plate on the rig.

[Highlandcharge]

Hey GS could you post a save, I would be interested to have a look...

[RebelYell]

And also:

Prentiss was leading a small three Bde Div in the battle. There was a second battle, where Hamilton engaged just Jackson. The BR for that shows no slash marks for Prentiss's Div and the Heatrs & Crosses do not show that the Div was wiped out - nor anything about Prentiss, either.

In the Messages, Prentiss is WIA. Fine, although the BR doesn't show it. Yet, the three Bdes are just gone - they're not assigned to the other two surviving Divs, nor loose.

So the BR is not showing Really Bad Stuff for Prentiss's Div, but he's WIA and his Div is wiped out.

THERE IS SOMETHING SCREWY WITH BATTLE REPORTS.

I've had my 'huh's before, but this one is egregious.

Are the raw numbers for I/C/A authoritative, or just flavor? This one does need to be answered, authoritatively, I beseech.

Why are the displays not consistent with Messages or the lack thereof?

Look, I can deal with Magical Support from Nowhere (kinda), but I would like to know just what the heck happened. If I'm gonna get run over by 18 wheelers, I don't think it's too much to ask for the license plate on the rig.

I agree that the report should show what happened, but for me there was no mystery as all went like planned, there was 2 day delay in Jacksons movement but that is all.

It comes down to that with Union leadership a lone corp attacking in Virginia anything is at risk.

[GraniteStater]

Lee took personal command of Longstreets Corp, he arrived with just Traveller in Culpeper, he was there to support Smith if he was attacked moving in Fredericksburg.
Jackson was coming behind with the other wing of the ANV and all the army artillery to push over the river even if the enemy was not in retreat.

I suspected much the same, and my kind thanks for your indulgence in this matter, but if so, then Jackson started from two Regions away and ended up MTSGing a Corps that wasn't even in the Region to start the Turn.

Is that what the code does now? That's just lovely for an attacker.

I knew I was taking a risk - but you see a non-Corps next to a Corps and have the impression that the Rules will inhibit, of not outright prohibit, MTSG to that unit in that Region, if not the Region itself.

Guess not. "Overpowered," maybe? Come on, what's an attacker supposed to do at a certain point - I don't mind being suckered, strong formations railing in, but this is starting to approach the point where an attacker in Winchester is gonna have to watch out for MTSG from Richmond.

[RebelYell]

What led to this was a faint move by Lee and Jackson attacking Winchester and going up the valley.

[GraniteStater]

Hey GS could you post a save, I would be interested to have a look...

I'll give it a whirl. Would you be so kind as to PM me on the procedure? Could use a refresher.

[RebelYell]

I suspected much the same, and my kind thanks for your indulgence in this matter, but if so, then Jackson started from two Regions away and ended up MTSGing a Corps that wasn't even in the Region to start the Turn.

Is that what the code does now? That's just lovely for an attacker.

I knew I was taking a risk - but you see a non-Corps next to a Corps and have the impression that the Rules will inhibit, of not outright prohibit, MTSG to that unit in that Region, if not the Region itself.

Guess not. "Overpowered," maybe? Come on, what's an attacker supposed to do at a certain point - I don't mind being suckered, strong formations railing in, but this is starting to approach the point where an attacker in Winchester is gonna have to watch out for MTSG from Richmond.

What was the day Union entered Fredericsburg? Lee and Jackson are both fast movers and get a 70% chance for fast march.

[GraniteStater]

Dunno, 5, 6, 7 maybe - mid-Turn, I think.

[RebelYell]

Dunno, 5, 6, 7 maybe - mid-Turn, I think.

Then they where all in Culpeper or arriving just.
I scouted you did not have pontoons, correct?

[RebelYell]

Lee came in Culpeper at day 4, he took command of the Longstreet wing at day 5, Jackson was arriving on day 5 if I am right, no message.
The battle was day 7 in Fredericsburg and Jackson was already moving behind the Union corp retreating back to Falmouth where he found it in day 9.
He got there so fast that the Union corp could not retreat to Alexsandria or Manassas, it is basically routed, captured and destroyed.

[GraniteStater]

Then they where all in Culpeper or arriving just.
I scouted you did not have pontoons, correct?

Correct.

Damn. I was even looking for such a possibility.

OK, then all attackers be warned. An MTSG can occur if the target Region has the target Corps just entering the Region.

Unless you had Corps besides GW Smith moving towards F-burg...

[RebelYell]

Correct.

Damn. I was even looking for such a possibility.

OK, then all attackers be warned. An MTSG can occur if the target Region has the target Corps just entering the Region.

Unless you had Corps besides GW Smith moving towards F-burg...

GW Smith was railed in F-burg, he was there on day 2, he got some more artillery in day 4-5.

[GraniteStater]

And that was extremely clever - I was looking for a fake, but I didn't think you would bring the whole student body, fake left, then bring the whole freakin' Army right.

Just to get one Corps? Do you hate Hamilton that much?

Read me like a book. Suspected I might be aggressive and snap at the bait. "See what happens," I said to myself. Oh, yeah, I saw.

[RebelYell]

And that was extremely clever - I was looking for a fake, but I didn't think you would bring the whole student body, fake left, then bring the whole freakin' Army right.

Just to get one Corps? Do you hate Hamilton that much?

Read me like a book. Suspected I might be aggressive and snap at the bait. "See what happens," I said to myself. Oh, yeah, I saw.

I was trying to get anything.
ANV is really out for hunting anything it can catch, would be an insult to Lee if it did not.

[RebelYell]

[video=youtube;rVuUrbAq0Vs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVuUrbAq0Vs[/video]

[ArmChairGeneral]

I think that the MTSG process is based on the region in which a battle occurs; if you are moving to a region and a battle occurs in the original region while you are still there, MTSG rolls are calculated based on the move times to the initial region. If you are moving to a new region, make it there, and a battle occurs in that region, then everyone will MTSG to the new region, and the chances are calculated on move times to new region. Supposedly, if a battle occurs and a Corps is already moving toward the battle-region but has not arrived yet, the MTSG chances are based on how many days are left, not how many it would have taken from a standing start (but when you MTSG the cohesion will have been affected by the actual marching you have already done).

I believe MTSG can happen from more than one region away if the move times are low enough (still not 100% sure that rail movement rates do not apply; if they do, then you could MTSG from several regions away with high chance of success).

The I/C/A numbers are essentially meaningless. The hard numbers are elements (and units) in the battle and hits of damage taken.

Hopefully we can take a look at the save to get a better idea of what happened. Not sure how this works for PBeM saves, we will definitely need the backup folders so that we can go back to the appropriate turn.

Edit: Cross posted. Are your questions resolved?

[havi]

Buahahahahahahhahahababa

[RebelYell]

I think that the MTSG process is based on the region in which a battle occurs; if you are moving to a region and a battle occurs in the original region while you are still there, MTSG rolls are calculated based on the move times to the initial region. If you are moving to a new region, make it there, and a battle occurs in that region, then everyone will MTSG to the new region, and the chances are calculated on move times to new region. Supposedly, if a battle occurs and a Corps is already moving toward the battle-region but has not arrived yet, the MTSG chances are based on how many days are left, not how many it would have taken from a standing start (but when you MTSG the cohesion will have been affected by the actual marching you have already done).

I believe MTSG can happen from more than one region away if the move times are low enough (still not 100% sure that rail movement rates do not apply; if they do, then you could MTSG from several regions away with high chance of success).

The I/C/A numbers are essentially meaningless. The hard numbers are elements (and units) in the battle and hits of damage taken.

Hopefully we can take a look at the save to get a better idea of what happened. Not sure how this works for PBeM saves, we will definitely need the backup folders so that we can go back to the appropriate turn.

Edit: Cross posted. Are your questions resolved?

The battles where all one round affairs so the Union was trying to flee in all of them but it was flanked by Jacksons corp and could not escape anywhere.

[GraniteStater]

I think that the MTSG process is based on the region in which a battle occurs; if you are moving to a region and a battle occurs in the original region while you are still there, MTSG rolls are calculated based on the move times to the initial region. If you are moving to a new region, make it there, and a battle occurs in that region, then everyone will MTSG to the new region, and the chances are calculated on move times to new region. Supposedly, if a battle occurs and a Corps is already moving toward the battle-region but has not arrived yet, the MTSG chances are based on how many days are left, not how many it would have taken from a standing start (but when you MTSG the cohesion will have been affected by the actual marching you have already done).

I believe MTSG can happen from more than one region away if the move times are low enough (still not 100% sure that rail movement rates do not apply; if they do, then you could MTSG from several regions away with high chance of success).

The I/C/A numbers are essentially meaningless. The hard numbers are elements (and units) in the battle and hits of damage taken.

Hopefully we can take a look at the save to get a better idea of what happened. Not sure how this works for PBeM saves, we will definitely need the backup folders so that we can go back to the appropriate turn.

Edit: Cross posted. Are your questions resolved?

Would you be so kind to break this down a little bit and post in the Battle Stuff thread? A small discussion here might be worth it.

Highlandcharge asked for the .hst & I sent it to him, but got an "Invalid File" message when trying to attach to this post.