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pgr
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Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:34 pm

GraniteStater wrote:COMMENT

I am experienced, but not an expert on artillery and certainly no expert on ACW artillery. I do have a fair idea of the tech used then and can make some fair guesses. An informative point is that the shrapnel used, like Lee at Gettysburg, was fused by wick fuses - I mention Lee, becuase it turns out that his rounds at Gettysburg came from another factory than was used by the ANV up 'til then. QA/QC slightly different; the historian speculated that the ineffective barrage on the third day may have been due to just a fractional difference in fusing length for the wick fuses.

So when one is aware of this, wick fuses (lit by the propulsive charge) are hard to time for "air bursts", to give an example. They had one, two, three second fuses that could be divvied up into maybe quarter-second increments, at best, I would guess. Half second was probably all they expected. So timing anything like an air burst...does one see the problem in physics? With plunging fire? At a moving target perhaps a thousand yards distant or more? Yeah, you could rain shrapnel - if one gets it just right, 1/100, 1/1000, you get the drift.

Also, shredding sails, etc., ain't really all that effective - ask the French navy in their long experience with the Royal Navy. French doctrine was to to dismast - the British went for hull shots. The latter was more effective, as experience showed.

Hence my case of skepticism. Nothing ill meant.

Sea mortars - I'll have to click.


Dusting off my knowledge from my re-enacting days with Kerney's Frontier Regulars out of Fort Phil Kerney in Northern Wyoming...

I've serviced an 1841 Mountain Howitzer and a 12 pounder Howitzer. In this case the term refers to the gun design. Howitzers were constructed with tapered chambers so as to use approximately half the charge of the full gun. (A two pound powder charge in the case of a Napoleon is reduced to 1 pound, but the shot remains the same). The trajectory is less flat than a gun, so howitzers could be used to create plunging fire in siege operations, but it remained a direct fire weapon. In general, the federals got rid of the howitzers (except in the west) because they performed less well in battles than field guns, and mortars did the plunging work in sieges.
IIb-2.jpg

IIb-2.jpg

IIb-2.jpg


The standard federal fuse was the threaded Bormann fuse. A neat little contraption with a powder lined tube marked in increments to 5 and 1/4 seconds. Rounds would be fixed and stored in the limbers with the fuses attached. The gunner would estimate the range, and according to range tables inside the limber, the fuse would be "punched" for the appropriate time. The discharge of the cannon would light the fuse and the shell or spherical case (a shell filled with led balls, the explosive only served to break open the sphere not to accelerate the shrapnel balls) and the projectile explodes at the exact time desired. (If you find yourself low of canister, load case and punch 0 on the Bormann fuse)

In practice it didn't work so well. Ft. PK has a great display item of a recovered unexploded spherical case fired at Red Cloud's people, with the fuse clearly punched for 3 seconds. Bormanns also had a reputation of going off too soon, and Federal troops didn't enjoy their guns shooting over their heads.

The Confederates used Bormanns as well, but tin and other metal shortages limited their production capacity. So their guns tended to rely on "paper" fuses. Imagine a powder paste wrapped in a paper tube and marked with lines indicating burn time. Cut to the time needed and insert in the fuse plug. Relatively speaking, these fuses had big variability issues from batch to batch. (Which is why Bormann invented his fuse in the first place).

Assuming the fuse burns as intended, you still have to estimate the range correctly. This is another reason gunners liked to position for enfilade fire (beyond the art of skipping a ball down a file), you can fudge the range a bit and still hit something. My understanding is that most of Porter Alexander's guns were firing directly and they over shot the range. The troops on the ridge were fine but the wagon's and Mead's Headquarters just behind the ridge got knocked about. (And in fairness the per-invasion bombardment in Normandy did a pretty good job of hitting the fields behind the beach defenses.)

All mortars above 8 inches were classified as "Seacoast Mortars." The Dictator of Petersburg fame was a M 1861 13in Sea Coast mortar. So it would be totally accurate for the siege mortars modeled in the game to be used for coastal defense.

Now how would you hit a ship? You cheat and use range buoys. Before the enemy shows up, divide the harbor into per-assigned fire zones, measure the ranges, put out the range buoys, and practice. When the ships show up, point the gun, cut the fuze, and wait until he crosses the buoys. As far as fuses go, coastal mortars would be firing shells, so one simply uses the maximum fuse setting. The idea is for the shell to penetrate the wooden deck and explode inside. Even a solid shot plunging down would have enough kinetic energy through a deck and below the waterline.

Of course all this works best when the enemy fleet sticks around to slug it out and helpfully stays by your range buoyes. Rivers are a different story. Also remember that a naval force attacking coastal forts is likely going to be stationary. You think hitting a moving ship is hard, try hitting anything from a wildly maneuvering ship.

Oh and how do you turn your mortar?
IIb-2.jpg

These swivels would have been standard for coastal forts and mortar sloops/barges, but too heavy for field sieges. (Which is why Civil War photos of 13 in Sea Coast mortars have them fixed in one direction). Also, since the recoil of the mortar is mostly down, the gun doesn't really move after firing which helps with the next shot.

I haven't looked at the stats, but the "siege mortar" should have a long range, large hitting power, low rate of fire, and a long optimum range. Good for defending harbors, but poor in rivers.
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GraniteStater
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Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:56 pm

Oh, I'll need to read this carefully.

Howitzers, as I am used to seeing the term employed, I think of more as pieces machined after the 1880s or so, with breech blocks, etc., capable of steep angle fire and ranges of considerable distance.

* The Fonz admits he was wr.., wr.., wrrr..., wrrrrr..., uh, not right *
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
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Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:51 pm

Hey, here's a case for a new and distinct unit in the game!
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



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Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:02 am

[ATTACH]26892[/ATTACH]

As far as I'm concerned, that's a picture of a guy in a sailor suit standing next to a mortar. All the proof I need that they used mortars to shoot at ships. ;)
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Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:52 am

Hey! No new units until I get my aircraft carrier!

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Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:57 am

Wait 'til the Akagi creams your sorry brass.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



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Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:04 am

Now there's an alternate history: What If the Imperial Japanese Navy launched a surprise attack on the Confederate naval yards in Mobile?

I can see it know...wow, what a mod!

Until the siege mortars take out the Shokaku and Kaga, that is...

and then we could have IJN SNLF units landing to seize the entrances to Mobile Bay! Boy, would that ever tick Ace off...
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



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(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:33 pm

Now how would you hit a ship? You cheat and use range buoys. Before the enemy shows up, divide the harbor into per-assigned fire zones, measure the ranges, put out the range buoys, and practice. When the ships show up, point the gun, cut the fuze, and wait until he crosses the buoys. As far as fuses go, coastal mortars would be firing shells, so one simply uses the maximum fuse setting. The idea is for the shell to penetrate the wooden deck and explode inside. Even a solid shot plunging down would have enough kinetic energy through a deck and below the waterline.


I've read this a coupla times. Just looked at this one again.

And the more I think about it, and actually somewhat familiar with USN ops in the ACW (although haven't opened up a tome in years)...well, let's start with saying I don't recall "...and Porter was forced to retire because Piscataqua and Penobscot had been hit with plunging fire." Let's start there - my reading hasn't been for quite awhile, but let's start with this, if we may.

* I wonder how many times they actually succeeded in doing this? They...OK, let's get it categorized. The CSA. Let us assume the Union was not overly worried about the Confederate Combined Fleet steaming up the Potomac (though they were, briefly, in March 62). So, US Coastal Artillery is right out. Let's skip them unless a practice or something is illuminating.

* OK, I'll be honest. I'm with the skippers on this one, what with being from Newburyport and all ("Home of the USCG"). Some reservations:

> Ya gotcher range buoys all set up. You've practiced. Fine. That's your distance...along which sighting line? Oh, yes, you can deploy the buoys across the channel - now you need to put in torpedoes or sink hulks, to restrict lateral courses. How narrow can you make it? Do you want to use the channel yourself, at times? How much effort are you going to expend here? At a certain point, execute your Terminate Project process, file Lessons Learned, and just drape iron chains and sink hulks.

> Well, the Risk Management and Change Management meetings have said Go For It. Whaddaya do now? Practice, yes - how much? After all, the CSA naval ordnance is brimming over, right? Are we gonna practice every day? How many firings each day? Oops, Grant just took Jackson...looks like slim pickin's...better keep some for the Yankees...lucky thing all the very best gunnery guys in the CSA are here...

> Darn! Those perfidious bluebellies snuck in at night and snatched the buoys! Looks like they're coming...wait, it's wasn't the Yanks, it was the current...gotta keep on top of Docks & Yards...

> Now they're coming! OK, they're crossing the buoy line...BOOM!...we missed; well, that's par for St. Andrews, but we missed by only fifty yards, let's correct...hey, whaddaya doin', yer not spozed to tack! Darn, there goes the slide rule figures...gotta guess now, lucky we practiced so much...OK, we swiveled, just about set...hey, she's tacking again! Stay still, willya? Darn, now they're beyond the outer ring of range buoys...OK, let's set up for the middle ring...

* See the difficulties? It is very, very far from any kind of a 'given' and takes skilled and drilled crews to pull this off, with plenty of practice ammo, plenty of combat issue, and let's not even talk about windage. Plus, with plunging fire, ya gotta hit the vessel Dead Freakin' On, within a score of feet, really, ten yards or less for the beam and stem to stern is longer, but now you're getting into range allowances again. And, uh, what about when they're in between range buoy lines? Just wait 'til they steam to the next line?

One word:

*

Landlubbers.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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GraniteStater
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:40 am

The more & more I think about this and reread this, I wish to clarify a coupla fine points here. Methinks that the Siege Mortar rant wasn't entirely off base, and my hip shot reaction not entirely misplaced. Yes, apparently there were a class of mortars that could be integrated into a harbor defense system, but note pgr does mention a few difficulties, other than the ones dramatized immediately above, e. g., harbor defense system. I am with the skippers, 'tis true, but, although pgr says that hitting things from a ship can be viewed as the more difficult task, this is not entirely the case. The advantage of the coastal fort, if it could be empirically measured, is not as pronounced as some might think; if it even truly has an advantage. The ship, after all, is usually aiming at a stationary target. Ask most gunners which they could hit more easily and I believe strongly the response is 'stationary'. More anon. First, howitzers.

I've serviced an 1841 Mountain Howitzer and a 12 pounder Howitzer. In this case the term refers to the gun design. Howitzers were constructed with tapered chambers so as to use approximately half the charge of the full gun. (A two pound powder charge in the case of a Napoleon is reduced to 1 pound, but the shot remains the same). The trajectory is less flat than a gun, so howitzers could be used to create plunging fire in siege operations, but it remained a direct fire weapon. In general, the federals got rid of the howitzers (except in the west) because they performed less well in battles than field guns, and mortars did the plunging work in sieges.


I'll just state it again; alluded to above. This is a 'mountain gun', which, I believe, could be stripped down and carried on a mule, essentially. 12 lber? Look, as someone whose practice was in the 20th century, when 'howitzer' is used, we are talking about breech blocks, six foot barrels, highly machined mechanisms, and, at the least, real steel, steel made by the Bessemer process - starting to get the picture? Steel is important - I happen to know from quite a few years in machine shops, etc., in QA//QC, a little bit about metallurgy. Steel in the 1860s was not modern late industrial age steel, i. e., Bessemer process, and this matters, for the process wasn't just steel in quantities that were unknown before, but quality, also. You don't get your modern tool steels until then, if not a bit later. ACW steel was soft steel, by and large - harder steels tended to be specialized, small batches, etc. The latter half of the 19th century is where you start getting steels that you and I think of as 'steel' - pressures inside a gun barrel? So that's why when you say 'howitzer', a gunner thinks of the French 75 (early 20th century) and then, what the US calls its 105s & 155s - modern indirect fire weapons of considerable range. This is huge, 'cuz in the ACW you didn't have to worry about someone from ten miles away ruining the chowline - in 1914, you did. So, although armies did have indirect fire weapons in the 18th century, if not earlier, and on, 'howitzer' usually connotes a more modern piece.

All mortars above 8 inches were classified as "Seacoast Mortars." The Dictator of Petersburg fame was a M 1861 13in Sea Coast mortar. So it would be totally accurate for the siege mortars modeled in the game to be used for coastal defense.

Now how would you hit a ship? You cheat and use range buoys. Before the enemy shows up, divide the harbor into per-assigned fire zones, measure the ranges, put out the range buoys, and practice. When the ships show up, point the gun, cut the fuze, and wait until he crosses the buoys. As far as fuses go, coastal mortars would be firing shells, so one simply uses the maximum fuse setting. The idea is for the shell to penetrate the wooden deck and explode inside. Even a solid shot plunging down would have enough kinetic energy through a deck and below the waterline.

Of course all this works best when the enemy fleet sticks around to slug it out and helpfully stays by your range buoyes. Rivers are a different story. Also remember that a naval force attacking coastal forts is likely going to be stationary. You think hitting a moving ship is hard, try hitting anything from a wildly maneuvering ship.

Oh and how do you turn your mortar?

These swivels would have been standard for coastal forts and mortar sloops/barges, but too heavy for field sieges. (Which is why Civil War photos of 13 in Sea Coast mortars have them fixed in one direction). Also, since the recoil of the mortar is mostly down, the gun doesn't really move after firing which helps with the next shot.

I haven't looked at the stats, but the "siege mortar" should have a long range, large hitting power, low rate of fire, and a long optimum range. Good for defending harbors, but poor in rivers.


Ah, yes, now some meat & potatoes. I think 'wildly maneuvering ship' is what sparked the essay immediately above and I need not point out again the difficulties involved, other than to say, it was the US that had set up organized harbor defense systems and I mean system. Once the skilled & drilled were gone (the South acquired officers, but not men - AFAIK, the overwhelming vast majority of US Army enlisted ranks stayed with the colors and AFAIK, all the Navy, pretty much everybody, officers and men. IOW, I would feel very safe in saying that the CSA had subpar rookie crews for coastal defense work and the cream of the gunners were going to the ANV, not Norfolk) you have some Problems. Also, the Navy going North is important, 'cuzza what I mentioned above, Docks & Yards. You don't just float stuff out there and hope for the best. You have to maintain buoys, static shipping defenses, signals, charts, etc. This is more involved than most landsmen might think - having operated craft in the mouth of the Merrimac, in Newburyport, second most dangerous entrance on the east coast, I am well acquainted with what the USCG does there everyday for aids to navigation and that's peacetime - maintaining a harbor for defense is much more resource intensive, to say the least. Keeping Mobile Bay up to snuff in wartime readiness is not an inconsiderable task and every time we think 'resources' and 'CSA' - well, I hope you get the drift (ha!) of this point.

Nelson, among other officers, reduced Copenhagen in 1805. Ship vs shore is hardly a stacked deck (ha!). The ships are not heeling to in harbor waters and rivers - six knots max, probably. Comfortable for the helm, just fast enough to give highly trained CSA gunners a 'real time' problem. The US Navy, aka Guns 'R Us, has always had the highest emphasis on gunnery, ever since 1812, when the fruits of Preble's legacy flowered, as the captain of HMS Guerriere found out, not to mention Cyane, Levant, Macedonian, and Java. The USN throughout the 19th century viewed the Royal Navy as Opponent #1 in Plans - we weren't as big, but we did our level best to insure that if there were any unfortunate scenarios, then ship for ship, we were gonna win the gun duels and give twice as much as we got - gunnery practice was a positive obsession for every captain, down to eight gun cutters.

Which is part of the reason you don't read too many incidents of the CSA smashing the USN - it didn't really happen. USN skippers approaching CSA forts had every confidence in their ability to dish out more than they got - they didn't maneuver wildly and a well crewed ship captained by a skillful skipper is a much better platform than a landsman might think.

So, adding it all up, I can see why Farragut cried, "Full speed ahead!" - he knew what his advantages were and they weren't unimportant - experience counts and skill at gunnery is not acquired in months and months of training, it can take a good year or two of incessant practice to be truly excellent - and the USN was excellent; for gunnery, quite possibly the best.

I will take the time, someday, to investigate this in more depth (ha!). For the nonce (what the heck is a nonce, anyhow?), I think my gut reaction is more correct than not.

ADDENDUM

Newburyport, Mass., is the 2nd most dangerous entrance on the US East Coast, after Hatteras. The Merrimac empties into a channel no more than 300 yards wide, seeing it in my mind. I have taken 60' twin screw diesels through it and the current is six knots. This is fast, gentlemen, and the Piscataqua in Portsmouth, NH, where Uncle Sam maintains his fast attack boats (and where I worked at the shipyard, on the boats every day) is nine. The Moby Dick, returning, would make a foot at a time, yes, really, surging, surging, surging, this is a 60' craft that could chug at 12 knots all day long without effort and she's making a foot at a time (viz., each surge). I learned to row in that current - at my age, I would still step in, put my feet on the thwarts and feel confident in my skill, but not my strength (yes, I'm getting on). Also, that 300 yard channel? It ain't 300 yards, it's 100. There is a sandbar from the Point on Plum Island jutting north to the Salisbury side and the black buoy is barely 100 yards from the Salisbury jetty. Donald McKay could sail out using more of the channel, 'cuz the clipper's drafts weren't as deep as steam & steel vessels - as a matter of fact, that is what killed Newburyport as one of the larger commercial ports in the US, that sandbar. The six knot current also means you do maintenance quite a bit on buoys, lights, moorings - it ain't cheap to keep a harbor going.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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pgr
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:06 am

Well I didn't mean to imply that mortars would exclusively make up a harbor defense, but that mortars were part of a harbor defense system. The in game "siege mortar" seems clearly modeled on the 13in "Dictator" type. They could be used against lots of different targets, and clearly the Union got more use out of the in siege operations. My understanding is that mortars were used for harbor defense because of their potential for catastrophic damage, but that guns would still be the primary defense armament. And of course, the theory of attacking ships, and doing it are quite different things. I didn't want to imply it would be easy! (I also have a vivid memory of a Patrick O'Brian novel with Captain Aubrey dodging mortar bombs as he runs past Copenhagen, but I digress)

It would be interesting to get a breakdown of the guns used by the CSA in defending Charleston harbor to see if included mortars. I'm thinking of the first battle of Charleston Harbor where Du Pont got his fleet pretty banged up. The problem big problem with forts is that they tend to be designed to defend a particular zone. So if you speed by them and get behind them, the fleet is pretty safe and can land troops to take them from behind.

As far as Howitzers go, your are absolutely right about the term as it is applied today. I'm just making the point that the word predates modern breach loading artillery. In the context of the Civil War the term generally referred to a gun with a tapered powder chamber so as to be lighter and more mobile than a cannon. Just to add to the confusion, the Napoleon was revered to in ordinance manuals as the M 1857 Gun/Howitzer (just adding to our confusion) because it was lighter than a classic gun, lacked the tapered chamber of a howitzer, and fired shot and shell. The word was on its way out until the rise of the modern artillery you are thinking of.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:00 pm

I'm not an expert by any means, but I wanted to point out that Brig Gen John Gibbon's Artillerist's Manual is available online and is an interesting read. It says on page 270 of the google books version that mortar firing on sea is very difficult but very devastating (and elsewhere remarks how inaccurate firing from ships can be as well). That said, were any ocean ships sunk directly by land batteries?

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:36 pm

pgr wrote:Well I didn't mean to imply that mortars would exclusively make up a harbor defense, but that mortars were part of a harbor defense system. The in game "siege mortar" seems clearly modeled on the 13in "Dictator" type. They could be used against lots of different targets, and clearly the Union got more use out of the in siege operations. My understanding is that mortars were used for harbor defense because of their potential for catastrophic damage, but that guns would still be the primary defense armament. And of course, the theory of attacking ships, and doing it are quite different things. I didn't want to imply it would be easy! (I also have a vivid memory of a Patrick O'Brian novel with Captain Aubrey dodging mortar bombs as he runs past Copenhagen, but I digress)

It would be interesting to get a breakdown of the guns used by the CSA in defending Charleston harbor to see if included mortars. I'm thinking of the first battle of Charleston Harbor where Du Pont got his fleet pretty banged up. The problem big problem with forts is that they tend to be designed to defend a particular zone. So if you speed by them and get behind them, the fleet is pretty safe and can land troops to take them from behind.

As far as Howitzers go, your are absolutely right about the term as it is applied today. I'm just making the point that the word predates modern breach loading artillery. In the context of the Civil War the term generally referred to a gun with a tapered powder chamber so as to be lighter and more mobile than a cannon. Just to add to the confusion, the Napoleon was revered to in ordinance manuals as the M 1857 Gun/Howitzer (just adding to our confusion) because it was lighter than a classic gun, lacked the tapered chamber of a howitzer, and fired shot and shell. The word was on its way out until the rise of the modern artillery you are thinking of.


To a large degree, forts deter rather than deny. Not that they can't be effective - they can.

Charleston harbor? The map in game actually represents that pretty well. I wouldn't attempt that harbor in a dinghy.

My observations weren't meant to refute, but illuminate - no trubs, bub.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:45 pm

tripax wrote:I'm not an expert by any means, but I wanted to point out that Brig Gen John Gibbon's Artillerist's Manual is available online and is an interesting read. It says on page 270 of the google books version that mortar firing on sea is very difficult but very devastating (and elsewhere remarks how inaccurate firing from ships can be as well). That said, were any ocean ships sunk directly by land batteries?


That's what I would like to know. They're kinda like Gorman Thomas - in his day, the most feared .225 hitter in the game. Not an average hitter, but...when he clicked, he clocked.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:48 pm

There were at least two Ironclads sunk from direct fire. One at Vicksburg and one, I think around Charleston. I think it was the Cincinnati sunk at Vicksburg, the other I would have to look up.

Farragut got his whole fleet shot up at Port Hudson trying to run the batteries. I don’t know if any actually sunk, as they were tied together in pairs or groups, but only two ships were still in serviceable condition after the run.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Yes, PH definitely convinced them to try Another Vector of Approach. A very good approach in the game - didn't work out in RL.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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tripax
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:33 pm

Ol' Choctaw wrote:There were at least two Ironclads sunk from direct fire. One at Vicksburg and one, I think around Charleston. I think it was the Cincinnati sunk at Vicksburg, the other I would have to look up.

Farragut got his whole fleet shot up at Port Hudson trying to run the batteries. I don’t know if any actually sunk, as they were tied together in pairs or groups, but only two ships were still in serviceable condition after the run.


Cincinnati for sure, but that was on the river so the ship had less maneuverability. It would be interesting if running batteries could leave ships serviceable and frozen in the nearest (downstream?) harbor for a certain number of turns without destroying them.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:42 pm

Cincinnati was not running the batteries. She thought they had moved out and went to shell other guns pointed at Sherman.

All of the fort running went on at night. They usually waited for a dark night. No moon and maybe a rainstorm. They were still often spotted. Ironclads could take most of it as they tried to be at the most extreme range and they were sneaking past, not shelling the forts.

The other boats are examples of what happened in daylight or shelling forts.

khbynum
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:28 pm

Keokuk was sunk at Charleston. It was a casement ironclad, not a monitor, so hardly the most well armored of Union ships.

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tripax
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Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:59 pm

khbynum wrote:Keokuk was sunk at Charleston. It was a casement ironclad, not a monitor, so hardly the most well armored of Union ships.


And its guns were salvaged by the Confederacy, that would be a fun wrinkle if guns from sunken boats could arrive at coastal forts. Keokuk took on 90 hits (I don't know if any were mortar) and none were immediately fatal, the ship sinking a few hours after pulling itself out of range.

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