Decision Cards

[GraniteStater]

ArmchairGeneral from another thread:

Some cards need work in terms of game balance IMO. Some are overpowered (sea-mine anyone?) others are essentially useless (telegraph and road).

I'm not entirely sure this game feature is working as well as envisioned. There haven't been a lot of posts or discussions that I've seen; I think most of us are trying to figure them out. Some are straightforward - others seem to be an abstraction of an abstraction - to be blunt, I think there are some here who would just as soon dispense of them & might have a PbeM HR banning their use to a large degree.

My first couple of games I tried a few on for size and had mostly a 'meh' or 'huh?' reaction. I built Telegraphs in DC, Baltimore, Richmond for the CSA, supposing it would help troop communications. I think that's entirely erroneous. A few, like T-grafs, help 'Development' - so what? Seems like a most minute gain in the overall game picture.

I haven't tried in my 1.03 games yet (starting new games in this patch), but Build Fortifications doesn't seem to work, at least with any UI feedback. No Mssgs, no icon, no Numbahs, nuttin'. Anything gettin' built, guys? Apparently not, afaics.

Oh, I'll build a Trail out West! If I can find a green Region, that is. How about a Road? Oh yeah, somewhere in Indiana, where even Confederate spies don't wanna go. Maybe it'll improve my travel time from Ft. Wayne to Lafayette.

From what I've read of the infamous Sea Mine - seems infamous, for posted reasons.

CounterIntel is OK, along with Demonstrations; I used spies & they seem to work as advertised.

Look, I don't mind the community being gamma testers - we have a good dialog with the publishing & development & support teams. I hope the Powers That Be take this rightly - some of these cards need a serious rethink & some are entirely superfluous, nugatory or unnecessary, adding little to gameplay.

Discuss, for ten points extra credit. Feel free to explain how to use particular ones effectively or what you think might be ones we can drop altogether.

[fred zeppelin]

Seems to me that most (all?) of the "development" cards give effects that are too obscure to be much fun. Perhaps a mathematician could produce a flow chart proving they have some effect, but they have no effect than most humans can see. I like the idea, but I'd like to see the effects be a bit more pronounced.

[Boomer]

I'm not a fan of them. Indeed, they do seem rather in obscure in their results, and the costs and time don't seem to be worth it, aside from the occasional draft card... which has a clear risk/reward cost of added manpower for a slight hit in loyalty.

For future games I hope these card panels are streamlined and made more understandable. They should make fewer but more effective decision card options. A card like partisans should only be available once or twice, but should help create a much larger force once used. That would allow for much more punch than nickel and dime'ing several cards several times a year. Honestly, it gets to the point that I hardly use any of the cards at all... and I doubt that sort of feature bypass is what they had in mind with the card panel.

As a point on the larger scope of decisions, I think they're trying to please too many players with too many options and features, and it only ends up complicating what could be a much simpler game design. For a comparison, go back and take a look at WIA and its features and parallel it with newer games like Civil War II or AJE. They're like night and day. Sometimes less is more.

[fred zeppelin]

I like the idea of decision cards, and some of the others are very useful. I'd just like to see some of them made more useful.

For example, one thing missing from the game are the political battles that often went on between the various state governors and federal governments on both sides. It would be nice to see some of that modeled in the game.

[GraniteStater]

As someone inside the cubicle, please let me point out that software development is a business - you do want to get the code on the street at some point. You can't model everything and what you do model is just that - a model. "The map is not the territory." I could spend the rest of my career writing the perfect manual - which would be a pointless exercise. You define your goals and meet them - a good model that people find useful (Word) or fun (games) can be sold, for money. Developers like beer and pretzels, too.

I really don't think that modelling the political strengths and weaknesses of mid-19th century Federal and Confederate polities would be all that useful for fun gameplay. Maybe Civil War V?

If I may, please let's focus on how people understand & use the Cards in CW2. Maybe patch 1.05 will bear good fruit and we will have a really good Card sub-game that the player will use and find rewarding & fun. It's kinda why I started the thread, so I, among others, could learn how others use the Cards, etc., and help improve this game.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with your idea, but Scope Management is part of a good Project Plan.

[fred zeppelin]

I really don't think that modelling the political strengths and weaknesses of mid-19th century Federal and Confederate polities would be all that useful for fun gameplay. Maybe Civil War V?

Did you ever play either Forge of Freedom or No Greater Glory? Both modeled the strategic impact of internal political factors in a way that I think many folks enjoyed. In real life, neither Lincoln nor Davis could ever get what they wanted - production here, recruits there - simply by ordering it. They often had to balance competing political interests. A strategic-level game can model those sorts of things. It's been done before, and the decision cards here, perhaps coupled with some tweaking of the loyalty model already in the game, could do it here.

Sorry if I'm deviating from The Plan.

[fred zeppelin]

To respond to myself, I think part of the problem with some of the decision cards is that the game mechanics underlying them are so subtle as to be virtually invisible to the player. "Development" is probably the best example - I don't think I can recall a circumstance in the game where I've been able to see that it matters.

I think the "Loyalty" mechanic already in the game is another candidate for improvement. At present, it matters for the invader as he moves through hostile regions - it works pretty well. The same mechanic, coupled with events, could generate some of the same game tension going in the other direction - internal loyalty. Davis having to deal with Gov Brown of Georgia or Lincoln having to deal with Copperhead journalists. The core of a mechanic is already there.

I do agree that reinventing the game is not practical. But I do think that the decision card concept is just the beginning of what could be a much more robust system using the essential mechanics already in the game. The key is to make some of them more pronounced so there's an actual decision to be made.

[GraniteStater]

* No, I haven't played those. I'm sure a good game can incorporate those.

* It's not The Plan, My Plan, or Our Plan. FYI, so you'll know, he who insists that there be no changes to a plan is a poor project manager. Change is inevitable, which is why we have Change Management. At the same time, I learned a valuable lesson years ago, when I speculated about "How come we don't..." - my interlocutor pointed out that the burden of proof rests on those who wish to introduce changes, because changes cost time and money. We don't seek perfect plans, we seek good plans that work and achieve agreed-upon objectives, i. e., teamwork.

* I've read your posts, you have good ideas, but we shouldn't turn too many threads into wish lists (there is a thread, or will be, for that - it was part of the input for CW2, btw). That's my point. We all can suggest features we'd like to see - I'm merely trying to remind someone with a good imagination what the thread topic is. I'm the same way, myself, I can fall in love with my design - but I don't, 'cuz "my ego is not on the page" and I'm saving my Deathless Prose for that Great American Novel I'm writing (or these forums) - not in my manuals and documentation. This is one benefit of formal training as a technical communicator, you see the virtues of focus & discipline in your subject's scope. IOW, I not only decide what the user needs, but what he doesn't need - many items of info gathering & research never see publication - nice to know, but unnecessary for the subject matter.

And I'm certainly not a mod, just encouraging a little focus. I want to see what other players are doing & thinking about the Cards - sometimes I start threads to learn some things.

Yes, as you said, A strategic-level game can model those sorts of things. It's been done before, and the decision cards here, perhaps coupled with some tweaking of the loyalty model already in the game, could do it here. That's true, but not in this game, now, as we have it - and believe me, as someone who works in software - it ain't coming in any decimal release for CW2. It's a Scope change & that is a substantial and fundamental change.

[fred zeppelin]

It's a Scope change & that is a substantial and fundamental change.

Our posts crossed.

I grant your point - up to a point.

Any change that makes some of these cards worthwhile is going to require buffing their impact. If "Development" is the route, fine, but then that concept is going to have to be changed so that it actually means something in game terms. That strikes me as a bit of effort too.

What sorts of things do you think are realistic? Are you saying they should just scrap half the cards because it's too hard to make them mean anything?

[GraniteStater]

The answer is this, seriously:

A) Player vs AI - do whatever the heck you want. Use 'em, don't use 'em - it's your game, knock yourself out. I like to play P-dox's Arsenal of Democracy with the Real US Industrial Capacity mod, aka BWAHAHA IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME! Gamey? Oh yeah, Big Time. AI doesn't care, though.

B) PbeM - easiest solution is House Rules. If you wanna go under the hood & mod, well, just comment the Cards right out, a few, many, or all. Whatever ya need to do with the wrench.

C) The publishers, if they want to put in the time & money (don't hold your breath, even though these guys are awesome with customer support), might, maybe, possibly, if we're good girls & boys, tweak the code to make some changes that the community Really Really Wants - maybe. If we behave.

D) Which is why I started the thread, among other reasons, those being chiefly what others are doing with the Cards and to learn how to use them, if so desired.

Have a good one.

[fred zeppelin]

(Posts crossed again.)

To address your question of how to play the current cards, I've found a few of them to be useful as CSA:

* Runners - I need the WS.
* Drafts - I need the bodies.
* Cotton - I need the dues.
* Defensive Position (or whatever the name is) - I build 'em but sometimes wonder if they actually show up.
* Demonstrations - I think they matter. Seems to me if I manage to flip the loyalty in my favor, the AI leaves more of its troops in the affected area, instead of attacking me. Could just be my imagination, though.
* Telegraph - Built one once. Didn't know why then; still don't now.

There may be a couple of others I'm forgetting, but all the rest - in their current form - seem essentially worthless to me. If fixing them isn't in the picture, then they probably should just be dumped. (I'd personally prefer to see them fixed, though.)

[fred zeppelin]

C) The publishers, if they want to put in the time & money (don't hold your breath, even though these guys are awesome with customer support), might, maybe, possibly, if we're good girls & boys, tweak the code to make some changes that the community Really Really Wants - maybe. If we behave.

Perhaps a DLC?

[GraniteStater]

Mebbe. I just document the stuff, I don't tell 'em how to run Release Management.

More to the point(s): I mentioned my experiences & observations in the first post. How are you using them? Do you like any? Think some are worthless, at least for your gameplay style?

Some I haven't used or scratch my head about are the Partisans, etc. Seem kinda redundant, to me (btw, in tech writing, Redundancy Is Your Friend, clarity is always #1 - just a side comment). I'd rather take those ragtags as a unit and gallop 'em right along.

As long as we're here, who the heck cares about Development that much? I've fiddled with it here & there, but it seems like a strong candidate for Nice Idea that Didn't Quite Live Up to Expectations. What the heck is it for and how much of an impact, if any, will it have on this war? Not much, afaics.

Stuff like this, that's what I'm hoping to learn.

[Ol' Choctaw]

Development is supposed to help your supply and movement. In some cases you have to build it up for trails and roads.

I don’t see a lot of difference either but I know if it is going to play some effect in that area I need it in the far west, where Union troops will starve if you don’t do something.

It had a more important function that you would be able to see, and I don’t know if it is still planed or if it has been dropped , that was building railroads. If the region was not built up enough you couldn’t link them. I hope it is still planned for but it was a graphics issue and I don’t know where it stands.

But if they are still in the game, don’t give up hope.

[minipol]

I use a lot of them. As for Development, doesn't that have an impact on the output of farms, and fields?
The useful cards for me are demonstrations, drafts, requisitions, plunder, scorched earth, defensive works, spy, recon, cav screen, partisan raid, the one which has an effect on 15 troops, build depot, copperheads and partisans, landmine, submarine, seamine. The ones I find most useful and not gamey: demonstrations, draft, requisitions, plunder, scorched earth, defensive works.
I do think the csa doesn't have enough scorched earth, plunder and requisition cards cards.
scorched earth and plunder should always be possible. As the CSA it's not a feasible strategy to attack over a big area, burn it and retreat back to your defensive line.

[Boomer]

Personally, I think the event cards used in AJE/BOR would have been a better choice for Civil War II. For example, a card could pop up telling you that General Hunter has been tasked with taking back the Shenandoah, and a decent force under him could be created and positioned near Harper's Ferry. Then the second option would be that General McClellen or Hooker has urged the War Department to send him to the Army of the Potomac instead to reinforce the main army. It would then be your choice where Hunter ended up going. This sort of approach would allow a more flowing strategic narrative and actually give the player a feeling of importance in his own decisions... and it would also streamline and simplify the card feature itself by offering fewer but more important decision choices... along the lines of Pompey's 'go east or go west' card in AJE.

I just think the current card panel seems detached and arbitrary, with many choices offering very little in the way of tactical impact, and others like the telegraph development offering unclear advantages and very little return for cost of investment. A longer running campaign in a game might reveal some long term benefits to these type of options, but for the American civil war, you're probably going to run the risk of losing ground you just developed before you can even decide where to build new industry or place a new fort. The American civil war was a very tactical one that took 4 years to complete. Event cards should reflect this. Long term PON-style region development just seems like a poor design choice for the ever changing landscape of the civil war.

[minipol]

I like the idea of the event cards where you decide where an army is formed. Less different regional decisions, move some of the regional decisions to options players can always use and some of these events. That would be a great system

[ArmChairGeneral]

I use and like:
Outpost
Clear, Develop
Demonstration
Draft, Requisition
Plunder
Cotton Bale
Partisan, Partisan Ambush
Copperhead
Outpost (!)
Fortifications, Redoubt, Depot


I use and think are overpowered:
Sea-mine
Submarine
Partisan Raid

I cannot figure out how to use (or cost too much, or just don't have applicable regions):
Runner
Telepgraph, trail, road
any of the 1.02 hide cards (can't remember their names)

Not a comprehensive list. Outpost kicks butt I use them all the time, I farm NM with sea-mine and submarine, I use clear in the Ozarks to move troops north to Springfield and fortify for the loyalty effects rather than the entrenchment (troops entrench anyway, so no big deal). I use almost all my demonstration cards, they are really important. Resource production goes something like this: structure value*(50%+loyalty+NM effect) to give you an idea of its impact on production. +50% loyalty cities can be taken by cav walking through the region.

The telegraph cards may be great, but there is nothing for us to go on. Does anyone have any idea what increasing development gains you? AJE uses the development system, so I have assumed the effects are similar. If the rules are essentially the same then a) the cutoffs for gaining effect are too high to reach with the available cards and b) the gain in supply does not warrant the expense and c) I have no idea if the development level affects resource production ($,conscripts, WS).

If I recall correctly the development levels are Wild, Cleared (25), Civilized (75) and Rich (80). These names and numbers are off the top of my head, illustration only; I THINK I read them in the AJE manual. If you have a wild 20 region, then you could conceivably get it up to cleared, nothing else is reachable with the cards you have. You might be able to bump a Civilized to rich. Movement (and thus supply) speeds are at a malus on wild, normal for cleared, plus for civilized, bigger plus for rich. The movement bonii are in the range of +/- 5-10%. In AJE development level had a big effect on supply generation, but it uses primitive supply and you don't have war resources, so who knows what is going on now.

I could go on and on about RGDs, but my wife needs to go, so I do too

[GraniteStater]

Thanks, guys, the comments do help. I guess I'm a hopeless trilobite, I could care less about most of these. I shall re-examine my view here - you folks seem to know how to use a few of these to good effect.

[moni kerr]

I use the development card in east TN to get loyalty back over 50%. That helps restore FOW and helps limit the range of Union partisans, which can really create havoc in the region. Combined with martial law and fortification you can regain loyalty over the most important regions by the middle of 1862.

Sea mines and submarine should be "use and lose" cards. As it is you just keep on playing them until they work.

Both partisan raid cards should not give a NM boost. Otherwise I find them good cards.

[GraniteStater]

Oh, specifically - from above - Build Fortifications doesn't give me any feedback. I don't see any Mesages, no Regional icon for the result (not the circle icon when you drop it), Ctrl+clk doesn't tell me anything - how do I know that the Fortifications are being, or have been, built?

[Ol' Choctaw]

check your entrenchment levels before and after

[minipol]

Indeed, to me that card is essential in keeping Harpers Ferry and Manassas in the early part of the game

[GraniteStater]

check your entrenchment levels before and after

For the units in the Region? Any and all? Just those "inside"? I'm under the impression that the Build Fortifications card affects the structure(s) concerned, so I thought I should see an icon or a numerical value displayed on the icon, or something along those lines. The entrenchment level is just how much that stack is dug in, I thought. Are you saying if I have a certain Fortification level in a Region, then when I move a stack there, the stack automatically enjoys a level X entrenchment?

[richfed]

I love the cards and put many to good use ... still trying to figure out how to use some ... the Indian-related cards confuse me the most. And Mescaleros. But, I find many very useful ... runners, depot, redoubt, draft, copperheads, requisitions, develop territory, partisans, sea mines, landmines, outposts, cotton bales, etc. Some are very situational. They are meant, I would think, to provide relatively low-impact advantages. They, taken one at a time, are not to be game changes, but I think if you apply yourself, you'll find that they - as a general rule - can come in handy.

Just one comment ... build fortifications DOES give a message in the message box when they are completed.

[GraniteStater]

I haven't seen it yet - just for the 'free' ones in early 61. Prolly me.

[Ol' Choctaw]

I am likely getting two confused.

One entrenched your units. Build Defensive Works

The other builds a redoubt in a city. Build Redoubt.
I know that one gives a message and a graphic change when it is complete.

The only other is build Outpost.

[GraniteStater]

One entrenched your units. Build Defensive Works

This one. I am at a loss for feedback, confirmation, etc., when I ask for these. I usually, as the Union, try Baltimore, St. Louis, Louisville (when available). Again, prolly me, but I've never seen nuttin', one way or t'other.

[richfed]

"Build Defensive Works" --- 3-5 turns later, I would guess, a message appears and you get new card[s].

[Ol' Choctaw]

No, that is a waste.

It entrenches units to the maximum allowable level. Use it for a force at a key emplacement you want to hold.

Moving a force to Harper’s Ferry or Winchester and play this the next turn… something like that.