The fate of an empire, a story of a different Ottoman Empire

[Crixdaz]

I won't send a peace at a time, but thanks for the idea.

Their strategy of merge all the important forces have been his doom. The stack can be virtually unbeatable with this tactic but as you can see the risk are huge. Such an army is hard to be supplied, and if you've got bad luck you'll loose everything. All the strategies had his advantages and disadvantages.

[loki100]

you've done really well there - so I'd now go for as high a warscore as you can manage, you could try to damage them (force say Croatia to be released) or just cash it all in for improved relations.

Yes those huge stacks are ultimately self-defeating, you can usually out manouver them (where things get difficult is if they build 2 and operate them on the same sector - it becomes a scary game of 'chicken' at that stage)

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

How are Austro-Russian relations? Because, as Loki says, when you make peace (hopefully not too soon) you could make very small demands in hope of better relations and maybe eventually a military alliance to protect against Russia. This would be great for you, actually, because then you and Austria vs Russia and the Balkan States in the next war will leave you with a better chance of winning. Austria could be a great ally.

But if they are already friendly with the Russians, then this strategy would not work. In that case, you should try to humiliate them. I suggest you would either demand that they de-mobilize part of their army, or that they release Croatia.

Anyway, as for the current issue, great job on starving their army. If you can attack it now with several of your armies, it will be annihilated. Then you can advance while leaving a force behind to relieve the siege in the North/Danube. Remember, advance cautiously, because they are not done for yet. Also, when you advance you may want to build a depot in Nish or farther ahead.

Good luck!

[Kensai]

The main Austrian army went from 25,000 power to roughly 3,000. Purely from attrition!

Not to rain on your parade, but before opening any champagne make sure this is indeed the case. On the map power indices are only indices, not the real thing, and tied to cohesion. If he moved a lot and was at offensive mode his cohesion might have fallen a lot. But the men are still there, albeit tired. I find it hard that this stack has lost so much power by attrition... the AI is quite good at replenishing its armies.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

The issue is supply for the AI, Kensai. Crixdaz cut off that huge army from any friendly supply sources, that's why it is dying.

[Kensai]

Anyway, they don't die or desert so fast. It is most probably cohesion. The power index can produce some really bad surprises if one is not aware of its fluctuations. This is a general comment.

[Stuyvesant]

Anyway, they don't die or desert so fast. It is most probably cohesion. The power index can produce some really bad surprises if one is not aware of its fluctuations. This is a general comment.

I don't know the game and you do (intimately), so I take your words very seriously. I'm sure that cohesion is the major part of the power loss. Still, based on my limited experience with RUS, I can't imagine that such an enormous stack without any supplies wouldn't be bleeding men in significant numbers once the supply runs out.

Anyway, whether the power loss is due to cohesion loss or manpower attrition is rather irrelevant: the army is in utter disarray and if Crixdaz can attack in force, I would expect it to crumple even further. So the outcome should be the same, regardless of the underlying cause.

[Crixdaz]

As you see in this chapter, despite their lack of power. Their army have an impressive number of soldiers, but it useless.

Eliminating the threat

The counter-attack commences with the liberation of the siege:



And we try to eliminate their main army:



As we can see the enemy it's weak but they're more than a half million man yet.



I've defeated the besiegers forces and now begin the persecution. Also I've managed to besiege the forces in Zvornik. Let's see the south:



I continue the persecution of their main force to the south. At the next turn we continue the clean efforts in our territory:





This two battles happened in the north, and I can destroy almost all the forces in this zone. In the south I fail to make contact with the enemy. This is the actual situation:



In the north, the siege in Zvornik continues and I still continue to defeating enemies. The Reserve Corps that we can see above have been captured to the enemy. But I don't know if I can replace their lost elements to convert it in a combat unit. It's possible?

At late May we can make contact with the forces of the south.



They're even more weak, but they have 250.000 men yet and I'm not able to achieve a final victory. This is the situation in the south, the persecution continues:



Better news in the north:



The besieged army was surrendered!, the path to Bosnia it's clear, commences the travel to Vienna. The classification changes even more to my favour:



My forces are definitely superior, my moral keeps growing and reach 86 (my lower point is 73). Their morale it's now 90, look also the number of prisoners: 250.000 thanks to the surrender.

The situation it's now resolved, I've got forces to clean of enemy presence my territory and to start the recovery of Bosnia. Now starts the real counter-attack, but before I've got a question: The value of the territories it's lower if you've got occupied for the negociations? Or I just should take directly the path to Vienna?

Edit:
I've recently discovered why the artillery doesn't fire in my battles, it's a known bug that happens when some HQ's intervenes, disallowing to fire at ranges greater than 0. There's a quickfix that resolves this and I'm going to use it from now. The effects so far of this bug, would be an (even) more deadly battles against the austrians, also (another) disadvantage as I've been investing in artillery and on his technologies for nothing. The good news are that we'll see the real performance of my cannons

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

I think you should focus on re-conquering your old territory (Bosnia) before striking straight toward Vienna. Whatever you do, don't stop pursuing that Austrian army in the Balkans. Try and destroy as many elements as possible.

When you make peace, your ideal situation is that your unused warscore allows you to form an alliance. An Austro-Turkish Alliance would be great for you, as soon you will be fighting Russia in the Balkans again. If this is your goal then you shouldn't invade Vienna because you don't want Austria to be too weak after the peace. However, if Austria is friendly toward Russia already (you should check their relations), then this won't work. In that case, you need to go all out- starve that army, and then go for Vienna!


Basically, try and think about what will protect you best from Russia and other Balkan powers: a weak Austria, that is not a threat, or a strong Austria that you are allied with? The worst would be a strong Austria that is hostile.

Good luck, my friend. Great job so far.

[Stuyvesant]

Nicely done, hammering away at that Austrian army. I'm very impressed how the balance of power has turned so much in your favor.

The General (it sounds more respectful than 'that Monkey-Bear') offers sound advice, so I don't have any suggestions to add to it.

[Crixdaz]

So far the allies hasn't shown benefits. I've got an alliance with France and UK before the war and +100 relations, all have been useless. This allies not only could make any help against Russia in the Crimean War, also refuse to help me when the austrians attacked.

My first thought was also to damage as much as possible to Austria to allow to Prussia and Piamonte to do their unifications. But I think now that this cannot be possible. There's no sense to use Austria as allies neither to try to help other countries against Austria.

I've realized that I'll be fighting alone (again) against Russia and her slavs countries. So my actual idea it's to hurt as much as possible to Austria by warfare and also by liberating nations in the negociations. As they couldn't be any kind of help, I'll try to reduce their threat to my security.

Nonetheless I'm open to new ideas and your advices are really welcome

[loki100]

just to add, I agree with the 'general'. Don't let that Austrian stack escape or it will recover. I had that in my first Ottoman war when I trapped and starved a large army over winter but because it slipped out when I attacked, about 3 months later it had recovered and gave me a serious beating. They will have the replacement chits so make your advantage tell.

Yes, go for Vienna, there is always something very pleasing to taking Vienna if you are the Ottomans and then disrupt the Austrians by releasing states. Hungary is probably your best choice or Bohemia? Bohemia will probably do more industrial damage to the Austrian empire. I suspect that all that will be released will be the capital so if you want help with scripting in a full release more than happy to help (I had to do this when I forced GB to release Scotland)

[Crixdaz]

Again in the starting position

At early June I recover almost all Bosnia and Herzegovina



In the south the persecution continues, and I promote another leader



But I find out bad news: Austria mobilize again! I try to advance quickly but...



I've got an encounter in Zagreb, despite my error, I achieve a victory and the destruction of some elements. I cannot believe that they can mobilize so quickly and send troops to the frontier.

At early July I retreat, waiting for an enemy attack:





Because my losses in Zagreb and the new mobilization, the proportion of forces it's improving for Austria. But his morale keeps lowering to 84 and I'm near of 100.

At late July important news, after some consecutive battles, I manage the final destruction of the austrian army in my territory:




Now my territory is free of enemies and my morale reach 110. I can now send all my forces to Austria, but there is some bad news:



Austria achieves the supremacy again, but his morale is 67, I've got now more than a million half of prisoners and his casualties are horrible: more than 800.000 men, is the double than my losses.

The actual situation:



The front is stable again and with the recover of Sarajevo I've got now all my original territory back. At the same time I manage to see preparing another army:



That means that I'll back to the situation of two years ago, at the beginning of the war. But this time I've got more experienced forces and even they're prepared in the frontier. Also my morale is superior and the war score is 64 to my favour.

Without doubt it the refusal of the peace 6 months ago has been satisfactory, but they've managed to recruit another army. Now that they're not completely ready. Should I launch an offensive? The objetive would be to avoid the merging of their forces, the army of Buda in the first place. Any suggestions?

[loki100]

actually convincing Austria it is beaten is really hard .. as you are finding their mobilisation pool is massive so every six months they produce a new large army.

that NM advantage is good - the critical numbers are +125/-65, at those stages your army fights a lot better and they start to have problems - also they are prepared to consider an adverse peace and may start to suffer revolts. So I'd say press on, but be cautious till you've engaged their new forces so they don't catch you split up?

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

I think if you took two of your 2,000 power size armies and grabbed Pest (across the river from Buda), you could hold onto it pretty well against their counter attacks. If they try to recapture it using that 5000 power army, for example, you could then advance with your other armies on the Zagreb front. Basically, take advantage of you being able to divide up your forces, and them keeping their armies consolidated in one stack. You could attack on any front, while they can't defend them all.

Be sure to watch that they don't maneuver around you by way of the coast.

The General (it sounds more respectful than 'that Monkey-Bear') offers sound advice, so I don't have any suggestions to add to it.

Ha, thank you! I now have a nickname here, I wonder if it will catch on. The story of the "Monkey-Bear" is in reference to a stuffed animal toy I had as a kid. It was a really ratty old thing, that had originally been a sweetheart gift between my mother and father when they were dating. I had it later. It was really very cheap and poorly made, to the point that I could never really tell if it was supposed to be a monkey or a bear. Thus, "Monkey-Bear"

[Crixdaz]

After two years of war I reach Vienna

At late July I take the initiative this time. Now I've got all my forces in the area, these are the movements:



In Buda I found the army of Zagreb, this is the first important battle where I'm attacking:



Victory! Unfortunately the quickfix for the artillery doesn't work, but I achieve an important victory and I can avoid the merging of their armies. At the same turn, a bit later, the enemy sieged in Buda try to escape:



Without success, now it's doomed. Lets see the new movements for the next turn:



The sieged army in Buda, try to scape again:



But they can't make it, at the same time the city of Zagreb falls and one of my 3-stars generals is retired(this was inopportune). Now the enemy has retreated to the proximities of Vienna and I'm going to get him



At this very turn, have happened 2 years since the declaration of war and the situation is incredible. This have happened better even than in the better optimistical guessings and now I'm in the doors of Vienna. I'm close to achieve the dream of several generations of turks since times of Suleiman the Magnificent.

At early September the job is almost done:



The enemy retreats to the city of Vienna and is doomed because I've started the siege. In the city of Buda there's still an important force trapped:



This is the situation before the winter. My morale is 119 and theirs 62, the war score is 93. His main forces are trapped in the sieges and they'll fall without fight, the austrian threat have been removed. The idea of attack before they could finish their mobilization was excellent.

Now the war it's almost finished, only a couple of details:
-I can take more enemy cities without risk, to earn more war score. But I don't know if is worth, only the city of Pest seems a good objetive, is an austrian objetive and also is near to Buda.
-Also there are some mobilized corps near (they have 400-600 of strength), that they couldn't join to the main force. I don't know if I should eliminate them for increase the war score and the experience. Because it doesn't help to debilitate Austria (they'll be disolved when de mobilization ends). I don't know if is worth the losses than I'll have in the combats.

What do you think I should do? Remember also that the winter is close.

[loki100]

well done.you really have turned this around from being threatened with destruction to being in the position to finally take Vienna ...

if you want to force Austria to give up nations I think you need a score of 250. This is not so hard as once you hold their capital, the WS will steadily increase even if you do nothing else. You clearly can't storm Vienna with that 8000 power army there and I suspect it will take some time to siege, its a little bit random when a fort will just surrender but usually it has to be out of supply.

Gather all your engineers and heavy guns (if you have these?) and make sure your besieging army is large enough to resist an attempt to break out. Set up a secure rear to rotate supply wagons to/from while the siege goes on.

On that basis, I'd be tempted to go for their smaller columns even in winter - remember that come the next replacement round they will gain yet another army so you don't want that growing by joining up with what they have at the moment. Watch out for revolts though - some of this will be individual Austrian divisions appearing in your rear and they can be a threat to your supplies. If they are rebels try not to engage them and let them do even more damage to the Austrians.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Yes, great job my friend. That was very bold, attacking straight at Buda, I don't think I would have had the nerve to do it.

But now I think the main worry is your supply lines. Your nearest depot is back in Nish, and you don't know how long the sieges of Buda and Vienna will take. I think you need another depot a little closer, and maybe send one small detachment back to guard it. Don't let your armies starve now that they are so close.

Also, with winter coming I think you are best maintaining the siege and securing your supply lines rather than chasing the smaller Austrian armies. Don't over-stretch the armies; you need to focus on the main objective of sieging Vienna first. After that you will have a higher warscore than if you run after all the smaller detachments in the snow.

Good Luck, my friend.

[Crixdaz]

Waiting for the fall of Vienna

To relieve the lack of supplies I'm going to separate my armies. Also I'm going to take Pest and to occupy to regions in the West.



The two cities and Pest fall at the same time. This is another hit to the enemy and his morale is 55. However he try to make a move cutting my line of supplies, I send troop to recover it back.



I recover the territories and deploy forces to protect the frontiers. In Istria appears an enemy army but it's not a threat. As you can see there is no supplies issue now.



The movements are static, a rebellion has prospered in Dalmatia and this time of rest allow me to refill my replacement pool. Buda falls finally and at the same turn the austrians try to finish the siege of Vienna.



They have no succes. Also you can see the improvements of my generals, this one have 4-4-5, very impressive!. The experience in combat seems to be extremely important. At the next turn there's a new try:



Ends with an identical result. There's the new year now and the winter intensifies:



This is the current situation, I want to keep the front like it is. I'll wait until the fall of Vienna and I hope than that will be enough for the release of Hungary. My morale is 120, the austrian's morale is 52 and the war score is 136. Any suggestions?

[loki100]

I'd push your national morale up to 125 (or 135 check the NM tooltip) as that will really encourage them to offer you a good peace. So go and kill some more to keep your armies properly trained

You'll get a load of warscore (and their NM will fall) once you have Vienna, also at that stage they will start offering all sorts of concessions as well as face even more revolts.

Since you are completely in control of the situation I'd use this as a chance to really damage Austria ... removes one enemy from your borders as well as masses of prestige.

[Stuyvesant]

You really have them on the ropes now. I'm very impressed. Just punch them around for a bit longer (good preparation for that coming war with the Russians) and then rip them apart. I'd love to see a political map after you release all sorts of nations from the Habsburg yoke. And take loki's assistance if the game only releases capital provinces - after the crushing defeat you are inflicting on them, they would have to surrender more than, say, just Prague and its suburbs.

Six or so years till the Russo-Turkish war: plenty of time to really cripple Austria!

[Crixdaz]

Thanks for the comments. I've never spoke of the prestige before: during almost all the time I've been the 5th and Austria was always behind me. Maybe this could be a cause for this conflict. At the worst time our prestige was almost equal, but now I'm about 2000 points ahead, I've got around 14500. Never was my intention to win prestige, because of the limitation of my sphere.

At the beginning of the war, my idea was to release a little nation between us: Croatia. But now with this great victory I was thinking about Hungary. If I restore the borders of the Kingdom of Hungary, the austrians will be no more a threat to me. So I think that the continue of this slaughter is a senseless.
I'm thinking about the limitations that I should have to demand the peace. At this era the main purpose of the great powers was to keep a balance, that was the reason about the british-french intervention in Crimea's War. Another good example happened during the russian-turkish war of 1877, the quick advance of the russian army alarmed to UK and France and they sent an important fleet to protect Constantinople. The ottomans loose this war badly but it could be even worst without the intervention. Imagine what could done the russian at their own will!

So what kind of peace agreement could be a realistic right now?

Another issue should be the reactions of the rest of powers. Prussia and Piamonte could be interested in to attack Austria when is weak. Also Russia (and possibly Britain and France) could see this as a threat for their interest, in that case they could choose to intervene directly or by threats to reduce the hardship of the peace demands.

Disgracefully the game don't represents it. Because I don't think that the 3 partial mobilizations of Russia (still at war with Japan) during this period have something to do with me. Also the increasing power of my country (the 4th military power right now) should have a reaction of the great powers. It could be interesting to add this mechanics to the AI and not to reduce this war to a simple conflict between two countries. What do you think?

[loki100]

well you could argue that this defeat is even more shattering than they had in 1867, so Hungary has demanded complete independence and there is nothing the Austrians can do about it?

For the rest, I agree with the frustration, the overall diplomatic module is the weakest part of the game (despite some brilliant ideas), blame Paradox for cutting short the final development phase.

Sorting this out by script is one of the goals to our little exercise in cleaning up and improving the game to be honest.

Some you just have to do by specific events to make the world adapt.

I'd say, Germany and Piedmont could well be your friends. Neither will worry about Austria's humiliation (of course S-P should take this chance to grab the Po regions) and Germany has had a pro-Ottoman bias going back to the Seven Years War and related conflicts. I'd guess you have lost your British protector though, they will be worried as a resurgent Ottoman Empire is very much a threat to their interests, as will Russia. France ... not so sure, probably neutral in their response?

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

The logical reaction would be a total drop in the British and French relationship with the Ottomans. They refused to support Turkey at the start of the war, and at this point they would probably intervene to prevent an Austrian collapse (sort of like how they saved the Ottomans in real life versus Russia). Thus from the Ottoman view, it would seem as if the British were on Austria's side.

I would say your best choices to release from Austria are Croatia and Czechoslovakia. Croatia would be a great buffer state, because then you would no longer share a border with Austria (I think). Czechoslovakia would just ruin their industry. To release both of these, you will need a lot of warscore, though. Hopefully taking Vienna could do the job.
Good luck, man.

[Kensai]

Another issue should be the reactions of the rest of powers. Prussia and Piamonte could be interested in to attack Austria when is weak. Also Russia (and possibly Britain and France) could see this as a threat for their interest, in that case they could choose to intervene directly or by threats to reduce the hardship of the peace demands.

Disgracefully the game don't represents it. Because I don't think that the 3 partial mobilizations of Russia (still at war with Japan) during this period have something to do with me. Also the increasing power of my country (the 4th military power right now) should have a reaction of the great powers. It could be interesting to add this mechanics to the AI and not to reduce this war to a simple conflict between two countries. What do you think?

Actually, it is the other way around. In the 19th century (essentially after the Napoleonic Wars) we already see in wars the concepts of modern balance and stability politics. In other words, every major nation was interested in seeing one of its rival weakened, but not totally destroyed by another rival, as that would mean the increase of power and prestige of that second rival. If the Ottoman Empire beats Austria so hard, Russia could find a perfect opportunity and strike you in the Caucasus. Also, Piemonte and Prussia could actually make a unity of fortune to strike down the aggressive Turks that are coming and force their way towards Central Europe.

Unfortunately, you are right, without "dynamic conditions" events like these cannot be done. If we had unlimited time and will to dedicate into improving the game, we could in theory add some events in the future. For example, I could write an event (not for your game, generally) that has as a condition a war between the Ottomans and Austria and if the Turks are in position of some region near Wien, force the Russo-Turkish war event fire in anticipation. Or another similar event to strike the aggressor in the back.

Essentially we will have to write dozens of such events, not necessarily for war. Damaged relations, cancelled alliances or trade agreements, relations drops, etc... all are possible results. As of principle: the main conditions should be relations, war status, and how that war goes between two rivals.

[Crixdaz]

Interesting conversation, good to see that the experience in this AAR would help to improve the game. Well the strategy it's now clear, wait to the fall of Vienna and use the score to release Hungary to their previous glory.

Another topic that the game doesn't have it's the concept of vassal or satellite. In this era Wallachia, Moldavia and Egypt were vassals of the Ottoman Empire, they had an important autonomy but still, the Sultan had something to say. I'd like to release Hungary with this concept of vassal, Hungary was part of the Ottoman Empire in the previous century.

To game effects they will be independent but I'll take the duty of defend them and be their allies. I think that a Defense Agreement (with the supplies and passing rights that represents) could be fine. Also I'd like to do the same thing with Egypt (they have important rebels problems) when the war is over. Romania will attack me soon with the events of 1877, so It's a no sense to do the same with them. This last is also a shame because the great coal resources that I could explote in their territory.

So this is the summary:

-Wait to the fall of Vienna to release only Hungary, even if I've got score to release more countries.
-With the peace only will be released the city of Buda (capital of Hungary). By script I'll restore their former borders.
-By script I'll improve the relations to 100 and set a defense pact with the new Hungary and Egypt. This is in order to represent the new status of the empire. Also the break of the defense agreements with Britain and France could be an effect of this new situation.
-After those actions, I'll protect the territories of Hungary and Egypt against rebellions. At this stage we'll find out the reaction of the other countries and the events of the war against Russia some years later.

Would you like to add or change something?

At the begining I never thought about use any scripts, to play the game alone (and so far I never use one). But I recently figured out the importance of this tool to fix things or to adapt the game. It's without doubt it a good way to make every situation unique and every game different. This will be my moment to learn the scripting in this game.

[loki100]

I think, even if the game was fully developed, you'd want some scripts to be honest.

The strength of PoN, compared to Victoria, is you can't produce a fantasy world. But you sometimes need to re-orientate what is emerging and to keep it all consistent.

as to your first comment, I think we need more AARs to be honest. When something happens on the periphery of my game I don't really know if that was just random event or flawed implementation. From your AAR, its identified where the alternative Italian unification chain (the one that is meant to work pretty much by default in 1866) is going wrong. So we can use that knowledge of a systemic failing to sort it out. Its one reason why I'm persisting with mine to the bitter end, it allows a view of the late game world as well as to test how the AI copes with certain situations (like having a decent fleet) and so on

[Crixdaz]

Vienna resist and the sultan gets worst

Nothing changes, I made contact with a little unit in Sarajevo:



I won without problems, but suprise my artillery can fire! and even with harsh weather. I don't know yet how it works . This battle of the previous turn is another example:



Also in the log you can see the increase of population in my country, most of it happens in the Anatolia. This increase my number of recruits and the size of my internal market (which increase the power of my economy). It's a nice example to prove the potential of the more extense countries even if they're backwards.

At late Febrary, the front is still quiet but I've got news from France.



The commune takes the control of Paris and the french morale is now 5. Without doubt it is a historical event, result of the defeat in the French-Prussian war. But in this situation is a no sense, this war never happend. Also Napoleon III has fallen.

At late March:



The dutchmen found another colony. Now I can take advantage of this calm and refill my replacements pool.

The springtime is back, I hope that the good weather can help me to take Vienna.



The siege is being too long (more than 8 months) and now that my replacements pool is recovered. I decide to recruit 3 heavy artillery units, This is the first time I do that.

At early June:



The austrians do another partial mobilization, but this time is not a trouble because the situation is under control. At late June the most important news in months:



The sultan loses his economic and diplomatic skills. Now I earn 0 diplomats points and my production is less efficient. But there are also good news:



The previous offers were 200 of state funds for 20 years, now they start to offer things more interesting: the liberation of Slovenia. I've got a war score of 153, to liberate Slovenia I need 183. It's not the deal I want but proves their bad situation, even worst after the failure of the mobilization due to my control of his main cities.

Even with the problem of Vienna, the situation is still good, the austrians cannot set me back by their own. The new heavy artillery is in the way to the front, I hope that this must be enough to finish the siege. The worst news is the disgrace of the Sultan. When he acceded to the throne my economy started to growth more quickly and he allow me to increase the size of the army. But in my current situation this change won't be a trouble, the country is strongest enough to survive even with bad rulers.

The life is so hard for the ottomans!

[Heeward]

You have a could have problem.
"The sultan loses his economic and diplomatic skills. Now I earn 0 diplomats points"

Do you need diplomats to send a peace proposal? I see that you only have two right now.
If so you may have only one shot at imposing the peace you want on the Austrians.

[Stuyvesant]

Seems to be going well, if the Austrians are willing to liberate Slovenia (of course, that would be completely surrounded by the rest of Austria, so it doesn't gain you much, but it's a good sign). I hope Heeward is not right about the diplomacy issue: it's kinda hard to impose a crushing peace if you can't deliver the notice to the Austrians.