Playing other nations than originally intended

[Gen.DixonS.Miles]

I want to play a minor power or a nation such as that of China or Brazil in PON. How can this accomplished? If it isn't then dismiss me resoundingly.

[Jim-NC]

It is possible. There is a tutorial around here somewhere, or over on the old paradox forum. You can play any country in the game that way.

[loki100]

As Jim says, it is possible but I'm really not sure its rewarding (except in the context of a PBEM game).

The internal events are minimal and you will have long periods when you really cannot achieve anything except manage your domestic economy. I started my first game using Sardinia-Piedmont on the grounds it was small and thus easy to get to grips with how the game works. In truth, even with the scope and potential of a fully fleshed out power, the first 10 game years were uneventful as I prepared for unification etc. It worked as it gave me a block of time when I could learn about the game's dynamics and not worry about making a game ending mistake, but for my next game I'd play one of the bigger powers.

The key is this is not Victoria 2 where most of the fun is taking a small country on a wild ride. Even if you remove the restrictions on colonial and territorial games, you will be boxed in by the game mechanics.

Just my personal opinion. I know there is work to make some of the minors (Mexico is one) more fleshed out and thus more interesting even if your focus is essentially on the domestic affairs.

[Kensai]

I want to play a minor power or a nation such as that of China or Brazil in PON. How can this accomplished? If it isn't then dismiss me resoundingly.

You can have some alternative reality fun, but I think you should also try to create a history of itself, according to what really happened back then. For example, as China or Brazil, you might find it more challenging to resist the European colonists and challenge the USA respectively.

Fun small nations with much potential in alternate reality (although many events are missing) can be achieved with some nations in the PON's era. Sweden, Greece, Denmark... are could possibly do what Belgium did, as long as you "make their rulers" do it. But expect heavy resistance from the major nations of the era. Behind a defensive alliance, it could be cool.

Check my AAR to see what I did with Greece after the Balkan War of 1878. Obviously with the help of Russia.

[Christophe.Barot]

It is technically possible but has not been designed thatr way, as in 19th century, some nations were way "more equals than others"

therefoere you have the top 8 actors basically

in an historical (I mean historically plausible) game :

Ottoman and China are unable to industrialize (enough) for complex but commiting social/cultural/institutionnal reasons, factored in gameand simplified - if conditions are eased, it is a departure from historixc reality, you are less placed in the situation with constraionts of your historical counterpart (you work basically with fellah, coolies, poor peasants, not hyper trained 20th century workers or even educated Prussian ones beklieve me, it is something difficult with Russia, japan, Italy, so China Ottoman and Guatemala - it is not a "fate of the sky")

in 19th century China fate is to be dismembered as unable to oppose technically Russia, France, Britain, others and even late industrialized japan in time - it's a matter of organization, firepower, industrial might, China could certainly compete in 16th century, can sure right now, had no way to give a match in 19th century - else you live in a fantasy world where imperial system does not exist, rebels are not beheaded, and population has the cultural and productivity level of present day China .. or "if My chinese were martians with alien technology")

only way not being dismembered is having THE POWERS (les puissances = the GREAT powers - a small club when you are approved by your peers only) not agreeing and the resulting balance preserve you for utter carving

you can have a wonderful and ULTRA CHALLENGING game experience fighting this against all odds, and if you keep constraints and get a good result, it is a remarkable and rewarding achievement

but else, it is not a glamorous role for most players, rather unrewarding (compare with European, American or even Jaopanese expansionnism)

and of course it is impossible to cover 100ù of the real world, ever

ditto Ottoman :

fate of ottoman is to be regularly crushed by the more powerful and (even them) more modern Russia, offer sometimes a stand and a good match, but be saved ONLY by "cavalry" of powerful (they) friends ("les puissances", the powers, club of which you don't and won't belong - they will sometimes even invite you to a backseat of a conference, just to WATCH them decide- without your opinion of your fate and potential carving) which will be according time span, France, Britain, somehow Austria, and Germany. normally, except if you are lucky enough to have Russia bled white by other powers, you lose. of course you can resist better than AI by micromanagement, sound military play, and acutre diplomatic opportunity, but basically

- either you are on defence
- or you crush revolts

you are no longer on Soleiman times - you have a defnsive play, worse even than Austria's (whio can crush Italy or Serbia on her own) - that can be a wonderful test of skills against a usually not technologically on the top foe, where you'll use climate and logistics at your best. but strategic prospects will look frustrating to many.

If you play Belgium then you're a very modern state (gee ) BUT you owe your survival to agreement of other powers - you can't survive alone against France or germany. Congo is yours BECAUSE other powers balance accpted so, not because you could defend it*. in a fiormer version of game, before AI.Diplobias and with a too agressive setting, weird chaotic agressivity made belgium hopelessly invaded - ceding Luxemburg to Prussia may spoil your fun in short order. now AI shouldn't do that (still beware napoleon III and pangermanists) but it may be frustrating role though. If you're in a multiplayer game..pray you have balance minded fellow players.

*see historical Portugal example, who had to back down when they collided with british schemes, and was subject of intense Anglo german talks, and happy enough for Portuguese Angola and Mozambique those talks failed

once again it's a matter of means - Portugal can't compete with Britain and Germany as well i don't believe herreros can compete with portugal (one can play the herreros too)

Spain is an interesting case, besides USA in 1898 they have no natural powerful predators- they can colonize a bit with profit (Morocco and western sahara, but is all) BUT they don't normally stand a chance against the US giant - I say normally because you will be saved by fact tghat in PRESENT version AI usually don't build any modern ships (as a player, you know better, and could win your battles),
- now facing a player- run US, a realistic US military .... he has all you don't have, superior population, technology, economy, coal, try to fight barehands a man with a kalachnikov .... at 100 meters in open ground

ditto for Confederate (can hold, fate is to disappear, you can technically play Taipings too ..), or Mexico (lost california and texas to USA, lost another one, was invaded by France who went away only when instructed to do so by USA , who, after having dispatched Dixie, "expressed the opinion" Americas were their private backyard, which was good enough realistically then (see Monroe and Roosevelt corollary, plus more pressing neighbours at french borders - did i say preuszen ?)

I mean ALL those countries may be fun to play if you like challenge
ALL are playable (see how on forums)
but most were not developed because they would be considered as unrewarding in a realistic context

not that you shouldn't play them - you can !

but, say "mexico" technology, literacy rate, and political unstability (France was switzerland in comparison) are realistically implicitly incorporated into mexico possibility


so game of main actors has been developed more - "preys" less
that is the philmosophy of the thing, it reflexes the real 19th century

so game is designed to give best experience, richest , with most powerful Powers

because it is a realistic game, aims to put you in your historical counterparts shoes/boots, with accurate opportunities and constraints

It can be played with any nation at your wish

hope it helps

cheers

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Christophe, my friend you are right mostly, but I think you forget to include the "human element" into your calculations.

In countries like Mexico for example, historians often forget how much history could have been changed by one single individual. Because their government was very autocratic (they sometimes were democratic, but it was a constant struggle and usually autocracy won), the fate of the country was often changed by one single person. Mexico could never have beat the United States in the struggle for North American dominance during that century, but they might have competed better and suffered less if they weren't led by men like Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana, for example. He was in fact a very incompetent (and very lucky) leader. His country could never have won the war because of their inferior technology, but they might have fought better without him in charge.

He was not the only one, but only one example of the many individuals who may have changed history. That is the sort of "random element" that would be nice if the game included, because this is what makes alternate scenarios possible!

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Also, I forgot to answer Dixon Miles's original question. Yes, you can play a minor nation, look in the PON Mods forum and find the thread by Laruku labeled PON-PAN Play Any Nation. This I believe has all the instructions.

[Christophe.Barot]

I do not question, and even totally agree with you about the interest of playing minors, variants, and that ALL isn't written on the wall by advance.

But explaining why there are heavy trends and that SOME things can't be changed (in the end, USA will prevail in new world, German or Italian Unity will happen, Balkan people will part with Ottoman, French/German, Italian/Austrian, and Slavic/german and ottoman tensions will persist, and European will colonize wherever they can - before de colonization trend appear that is, soon or late, imho) , lest live in a fantasy and not accurate 19th century world was necessary to explain design chhoices

and limiting to a few actors allows for more historical realism, personalization of goals, reactikns, diplomacy, than a generic sandbox system would. (in the same idea, 1848 was left aside to streamline things - believe me, it could still be a wonderful scenario, but imprevisible outcome + the come and go of regimes was a lot for system to manage with credibility)

Mexico, OK, CSA ditto but honest, I doubt the interzest of playing Nicaragua or Korea during the time span

(Mexico, OK, Serbia and other Balkanic obviously, Denmark, yep see how long you can delay the unavoidable prussian( or Prussian-Austrian) victory, even Holland or Portugal if you want, consider it as a colonizatuion tutorial, Boers, fine, but better play a short scenario imho (already I feel little enthusiasm playing PRE MEIJI japan, so ..)

[Jonathan Pollard]

It is possible. There is a tutorial around here somewhere, or over on the old paradox forum. You can play any country in the game that way.

Maybe not any country. When I tried to play Abyssinia, I encountered a critical error on its first turn
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3327436

[Lemoni]

I have played Portugal from 1850 till 1868. The game runs excellent ,no problems no bugs. It is a real challenge so far because I try to take over as much Africa as I can. The only issue I have is that when the begining generals and admirals
died I never got new ones so all my forces are leaderless. Is this happening because the game was not designed to be played as Portugal or "someday" new generals and admirals will arrive

[Kensai]

Μην ανησυχείς, θα σε φτιάξω!

This was a horrible oversight probably by the beta testers. Indeed, there is no initial leader quotas for all nations except the major playable ones and no updates according to the decades passing either, although there was a spreadsheet file showing their evolution over time for most major nations. I have promised for a long time now to provide updated quotas for all, but I haven't really had the time to dedicate and do this.

Add this custom event in the Plugin 1850 subfolder of the Events folder in your game files and by next turn some Generals and Admirals will appear.

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Anglia
StartEvent = Updated Leaders Pool (1870)|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Anglia|NULL
Actions

SelectFaction = $POR
  ChangeLeadersPool = 3;1
  ChangeLeadersPool = 2;2
  ChangeLeadersPool = 1;2
  ChangeLeadersPool = 13;1
  ChangeLeadersPool = 12;2
  ChangeLeadersPool = 11;2
EndEvent

Have fun!

[Lemoni]

Μην ανησυχείς, θα σε φτιάξω!

This was a horrible oversight probably by the beta testers. Indeed, there is no initial leader quotas for all nations except the major playable ones and no updates according to the decades passing either, although there was a spreadsheet file showing their evolution over time for most major nations. I have promised for a long time now to provide updated quotas for all, but I haven't really had the time to dedicate and do this.

Add this custom event in the Plugin 1850 subfolder of the Events folder in your game files and by next turn some Generals and Admirals will appear.

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Anglia
StartEvent = Updated Leaders Pool (1870)|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Anglia|NULL
Actions

SelectFaction = $POR
  ChangeLeadersPool = 3;1
  ChangeLeadersPool = 2;2
  ChangeLeadersPool = 1;2
  ChangeLeadersPool = 13;1
  ChangeLeadersPool = 12;2
  ChangeLeadersPool = 11;2
EndEvent

Have fun!

Thank you very much! Eισαι πρωτος! Ξαναρχιζω απο κει που το αφησα γιατι η Πορτογαλια παιζει πολυ καλα και εχει ενδιαφερον

[Kensai]

Thank you very much! Eισαι πρωτος! Ξαναρχιζω απο κει που το αφησα γιατι η Πορτογαλια παιζει πολυ καλα και εχει ενδιαφερον

The hidden potential of PON is that if someone sits down and creates events, OOBs, and quotas for all nations, essentially we have million possible games out of one. I have personally modded Greece to have fun and managed to capitalize on the 1878 Russo-Turkish War to gain control of Libya in an alternate reality way, before the Italians could snatch it. Also, Crete and the Dodecanese were taken in an earlier confrontation. But I guess Spain, Portugal, and Netherlands are at a much better state to start cause they already have considerable overseas potential.

[Lemoni]

Did you scripted decrees and laws for Greece or they appear anyway?