Proposal for Pride of Nations 2

[nett40]

Just a few thoughts about the next PoN game.

I think the game should begin in 1871 just after the unification of Germany and last until the late 20'ies, 30'ies or maybe even the early 40'ies. The game should focus on the eight great world powers of that era: USA, Great Britain, France, Russia (later Soviet Union), Germany, Italy, Japan and Austro-Hungary.

Leave the complexities of the national unification proces of Italy and Germany, as well as, the American Civil war out of the game. And focus on Empire building and power politics of the late 19th century and first half of the 20th century.

The military units and the map in PoN 2 should be inspired from the Commander-series (Commander: the great war & Commander: Europe at war), this would make the game stand apart from Paradox's Victoria 2, and with a hexagonal map it could also later become a iPad/tablet game, as well as, a PC game.

I believe that if thought trough both the WW1-era and the WW2-era could be included into the game. However, the game should end before the beginning of the cold war between the Super Powers and nukes should not play any important role.

[loki100]

Well I'd stop at some stage in the inter-bellum period.

In effect at some point between 1918 and 1939 tanks ceased to be fast infantry, or better armoured slow cavalry, and really changed the pace and operational dynamics of combat. You can have a long and learned argument as to when this happened in the 1930-9 tank development cycle but it was somewhere in that sequence. I'd suggest that the Soviet BT-7, the German Pzkw1 and the French S35 are the designs that allowed the developing theory of armoured warfare the tools needed to take those concepts from theory to the battlefield.

I think, with the WEGO game processing model, at that stage you have a problem in how to model the interaction between units that move in effect in different time units. So you need either restrictively small time units or ... . Maybe wrong here, but if AGEOD keep to WEGO, then I personally think there is a time limit to which you can't take the game engine.

So there is some logic to Paradox ending the Vicky games in 1936 and not just that, in turn, was the opening date for their HOI series.

An 1880-1930s timeline would be valid, but you would also need a much richer internal political model to cope with the post-WW1 events?

[Kensai]

I would love to have a DLC of "World War I" for the original PON, honestly, including a mega-feature update with all the things we have learned playing the game as well as some less know wars like the War of the Pacific. In my humble opinion, Pride of Nations (1) has still a lot of things to offer.

[czert2]

To my knowlenge that WWI DLC was originaly planed and no idea if it was canceled or simply posponed (indefinetly?).

[Kensai]

It would be so cool if it came back next year which is the 100th anniversary of World War I!

[H Gilmer3]

I would buy a WW1 scenario!

I think, and now hear me out, that PoN should culminate with WW1. And that the whole game should be to get your country as prepared for WW1 as best as possible. Then whoever wins WW1 and certain other scoring, based on national interests, that is the winner.

[vaalen]

I would love to have a DLC of "World War I" for the original PON, honestly, including a mega-feature update with all the things we have learned playing the game as well as some less know wars like the War of the Pacific. In my humble opinion, Pride of Nations (1) has still a lot of things to offer.

I agree. The Mega update would make for a much better game, and the DLC of World War one would make for an awesome war!

[niel6658]

A game devoted to the great powers of the New Imperialism era (1880-1939/1945) sounds like a really good idea. I'm a big fan of both Commander: the great war and Victoria 2, so this would also be fun, if done correctly. A detailed hexagon map and a turn-based Victoria-style game would really be a welcome change.

With all the events leading up to the national unification of Italy and Germany left out of the game and with a simpler economic system than the one in Victoria 2. Diplomacy, military and tech advances should be at the center of this game. Only the big eight should be playable, so that the AI can be made better.

Focusing on Empire building and power politics of the late 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, would be a super game if it offers something newer than Victoria 2 and adds detailed diplomacy to the Commander-series.

But. No nukes! Please... Let the game end two days before they dropped

[niel6658]

I would buy a WW1 scenario!

I think, and now hear me out, that PoN should culminate with WW1. And that the whole game should be to get your country as prepared for WW1 as best as possible. Then whoever wins WW1 and certain other scoring, based on national interests, that is the winner.

That sounds a lot like Victoria 2.

Let's have something new that binds the long struggle for global supremacy, between the BIG EIGHT together in a new way. That struggle didn't end in 1918...

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

But adding a hex-based map would direct the game to a different fanbase; many current AGEOD fans enjoy the region-based map, in fact it is a big attraction because of its better detail.

[niel6658]

But adding a hex-based map would direct the game to a different fanbase; many current AGEOD fans enjoy the region-based map, in fact it is a big attraction because of its better detail.

But you will need to rethink and reinvent the game to set it more apart from Victoria 2.

You could still have regions or provinces, but the smallest tile should be a hexagon tile, so that you could move your units into good defensive positions (hills, mountains, behind river hexes etc.) within a province/region.

In peace deals you should only be able to seede or aquire whole provinces/regions. The hexagon-tiles should be for unit movement and allocation of resources and terrain within a province.

You should also be able to hide the hex-grid from view when looking at the map. Turnbased games are very adabtable to hexagon-based maps, whereas Victoria 1 + 2 are real-time games with region-based maps with states that are subdivided into provinces.

[SonOfAGhost]

Hex based maps have no place in ANY strategy game worthy of the name. There's all kinds of strategic elements that simply can't be done on such a map with out seriously simplifying the game, the map design, or both.

That said, they can work quite well for tactical games. Which can also be great fun, often cover similar scenarios and are pretty much always lumped in as part of the strategy genre. So I can understand overlooking the differences between types and why hexes can work for one but not the other. However PoN is very clearly on the strategy side of that line.

[loki100]

well that is not *quite* true - Matrix do a series of hex based games that are pretty complex and are at the strategic level. But I agree, its not appropriate in this instance and AGEOD's area system is more flexible and allows a better representation of movement in pre-modern warfare.

[Christophe.Barot]

two remarks about scope of a PON2 revamped or gold or anything

PON 2 would have to use Athena, not a totally different engine, so no real time paradox engine or hex engine or something
an historical game with some credibility (you can have games encompassing all history of mankind, but they have no claim to any historicity) can't suceed with too different mechanisms

19th century from 1815 (actually 1850 which spared the team the conceptual difficulties of modelling semi aborted 1848 revolutions, the republic/empire/republic move in France, and independance of latin america, the independance of Balkan states and unification of germany and Italy + colonialism being largely enough) is HOMOGENOUS :
- culturally
- technically/militarily

19th century up to 1914-1918 (and Russian civil war) sure had technological evolutions but nothing of the sort of full development of tank/airplane AFTER they appeared in WW1
Tanks were slow, vulnerable and not many (except punctually and at the end), nothing of the sort of Guderian-Patton Blitzkrieg
Airplanes were mostly limited to reconnaissance (a good help to give precise ARTILLERY fire) and fighters shooting the former and between themselves (in the game I found them to be costly vulnerable useless assets actually) - no Douhet like MASSIVE terror bombing (Zeppelin were symbolic/psychologic, had not even the impact of V1 in WW2 or Grosse bertha (a big gun) in WWI) like Dresden Hamburg Rotterdam Coventry or Tokyo (not speaking of Hiroshima/Nagazaki) - nor tactical effect (see Stuka during early stages, or allied tactical aircraft during invasion of Europe - Sturmovik did waste too, but German Luftwaffe resisted better in the east)
I don't know if Athena is well equipped for that technology (perhaps it is), but anyway, common rules would be a mess imho

The other point is political/cultural background leading Power actions
in all this era it is nationalism, pure nationalism (evolving into imperialism)- period - nothing else but social struggle INTERNALLY

after it, IDEOLOGY plays a role democracy/liberalism versus fascism/nazism versus communism - you don't have ideologogy playing a major role in 19th century, you have conservative regimes and liberal ones but France allies Russia versus Germany,

also there is no major role of religion (Italy and Austria are at odds, there is nothing like a catholic France-Italy -Austria-(Spain) alliance or a protestant Britain-Germany-USA one. And panslavism is a RUSSIAN NATIONALIST ideological tool and excuse, not a real religious factor (while Bulgarian people still regards Russia with sympathy, Bulgaria NATIONAL INTERESTS makes her align with central powers and attack Orthodox serbia when they see fit)) or Dynasty (there were attempts to get close because of family links between Czar, Kaiser and British royal family but it totally failed, Bjorko never was confirmed and Anglo German talks crashed on the wall of rival (national) world ambitions) like in the previous (from Renaissance to french Revolution and Napoleonic Empire) era

add that one of the main 19th actors purely disappeared in WWI - I mean Austria Hungary, and another one fully changed nature (I mean USSR instead of Russia), and effects of moving from Authoritarian militaristic Monarchy to Nazism, or from classical monarchy to fascism aren't nil

no, best (and only) bet would be a gold edition of PON including
- more scenarios (Crimean war, WWI, and others come to my mind)
- multi threading (I think Pocus is right)
- some overhauling of Diplomacy, who went imho not fully finished as the team scrambled to debug and balance the game for the release timeline fixed by paradox, and a little tuning

but I think that if this is done, it could at last become the deserved success (and with a decent return for AGEOD team) it deserves

I guess lots of the original Beta team (and others) are still voluntary to lend a hand ...

[lukasberger]

two remarks about scope of a PON2 revamped or gold or anything

Great post! Fully agree with everything mentioned.