[PON] Conflict in Europe - Diplomacy & News Thread

[Kensai]

Nobody's fault. I was just citing bizarre incidents for Spinoza's perusal.

Btw, this:

China has independently defeated Japanese troops on their mainland, and they are most certainly not the aggressor in this conflict. If there is a nation that should pay reparations, it is Japan, the initiator of this conflict. Japan should be content with not (yet!) having to pay reparations and simply accept the kind offer of a white peace.

is totally untrue. The only reason China defeated those troops was that I was waiting for USA's imminent entry in the conflict and wasn't interested in committing more troops to a potentially unstable front. China was the aggressor of this conflict due to FOUR discrete events that fired as the history played on. Did you read the events? Japan simply responded to them. Anyway, let's see where all this takes us.

[bjfagan]

is totally untrue. The only reason China defeated those troops was that I was waiting for USA's imminent entry in the conflict and wasn't interested in committing more troops to a potentially unstable front. China was the aggressor of this conflict due to FOUR discrete events that fired as the history played on. Did you read the events? Japan simply responded to them. Anyway, let's see where all this takes us.

Based on your previous comments, I am now starting to believe you are turning into a Whollaborg and you are going to intentionally send Japan down in flames, just to spite the other players.

[Kensai]

Funny thing, nemethand asked me the same thing today in an email. No, this is not going to happen.

First things first, you have to crack Japan's nut open to even think of that. We are not there yet. Second, even if a defeat is in order, a potential occupation is nothing for such a long game. I can accept that if it hurts Japan's rivals long term. The population's satisfaction level in Japan is 97%, meaning the population will be delighted to fight for years (if not decades) in resistance. Japan is full of 10-sized cities, you're gonna need a lot of troops to pacify it without risk of continuous revolts. I suspect you're gonna need at least 200-300K troops to do this without taking serious risks. Even if you divide this onerous duty between "victors", it's gonna be a long commitment and given the long-term implications I suspect sooner or later the victors will come at odds. At that point, Japan will emerge again, uniting with the strongest or the friendliest to Japan. Simple as pie.

Btw, I find your Whollaborgian accusation ridiculous at every level: Jonathan is selling parts of his own country to Germany and even said publicly that we should consider China "an American protectorare" for what is worth. This arcade game has become very curious in many aspects and I don't understand at this point why you think that a potential colonization of Japan is not possible. After all, the uniting of all nations in an Asian regional war against Japan means only this. Curtail Japan for colonization.

[Jim-NC]

Japan will not negotiate anymore. Unless:

- A coalition is formed to eradicate the German plague in the Far East (all assets and colonies will be partitioned among victors)
- Korea becomes a Japanese protectorate.
- China pays 1000 State Funds each year for 5 years as war reparations.
- The USA and France break off their alliance with China and form one with Japan.
- Great Britain can join this coalition to get back its lost African colonies from Germany or stay neutral.

If any of the above conditions is not met, Japan will severe all diplomatic relations and continue total war with any aggressors. There will be no negotiations, even if we succumb under full occupation we are ready to hit the caves and mountains and do resistance for years to come. We are ready for a long occupation that will eventually wear down the occupier(s) as other more peaceful nations surpass them in deeds. As they lose hundreds of soldiers due to attrition and partisans, we will be working behind the scenes with other nations that desire to hit the aggressors while we keep them occupied here. Nippon will be their grave!

Long live the Emperor!

Great Britain for one country finds these demands to be breathtaking in their audacity. It now appears that the Japanese leadership has decided to persue option 2 (total destruction of the Japanese Nation). We have not joined the conflict, but have tried to be a mediator between the warring nations. In so saying, we shall continue to honor this role of mediator, and remain neutral. We believe that war is still not the best option, but not everyone sees it that way.

Prime Minister Disraeli, Conservative Party

[Kensai]

Then war it is! Good luck to us all!

Ito Hirobumi

PS. Of all nations, GBR has every reason to stay neutral and leave all the others weaken themselves and trail in Prestige. As I said, it's a long game, it only hurts the belligerents. Given Japan's relatively low Prestige, it works for me. Good call, Jim-NC!

[Jonathan Pollard]

The population's satisfaction level in Japan is 97%, meaning the population will be delighted to fight for years (if not decades) in resistance. Japan is full of 10-sized cities, you're gonna need a lot of troops to pacify it without risk of continuous revolts. I suspect you're gonna need at least 200-300K troops to do this without taking serious risks.

China hereby volunteers to contribute the entire 300K troop allotment estimated to be needed to fully pacify Japan, although it will take several months for all of them to reach Japan due to China's limited sea transport capability.

[ATTACH]23032[/ATTACH]
The enemy must be exterminated

[De_Spinoza]

Japan insults Great Powers - and will face the consequences
After issuing bizarre demands to a British offer of mediation, Japan has now proclaimed an inevitable long war of attrition. This insult to Western Civilization, to the British offer of mediation, but above all to our shared Western values of order and peace, will not be left unanswered. Doing so would result in a lasting and harmful loss of prestige for all Great Powers involved in Asia. We can not allow a savage nation like Japan to spit on the good intentions of our friends, to invade the territory of our allies, or to continue a disastrous war which economic repercussions have already been felt far beyond Asia. Japan has now effectively turned into a rogue-state, shunning all diplomatic initiatives, on a steady course to self-destruction.

Therefore, France hereby proclaims that it will take part in a future invasion of the Japanese isles to remedy past wrongs, and to ensure that the people of Asia will not have to suffer the unbearable, cruel, and mad ways of the savage pirate-nation that is Japan.

[Citizen X]

It was my impression in the past days that my messages to Russia and Greece in IC style haven't come across. So I try in OOC terms, though still meant as IC, to the interested public.


My worthy opponents entered the war with a strategy to win, which was not hard to imagine. Wear down the turcish army with greater and superior forces and then achieve the goals at the diplomatic table. But now they have obviously no clue how to end the war. That's because they just don't get it, that they were dealing with a country that has nothing to lose from day one. Were it else, I had folded long ago.
But this is no war between equally developed countries, where one victorious army imposes a threat. There is no threat. You can only threaten countries that have something to lose, where the have-nots you need to make an offer. That's such a basic truism and yet an endeavour that up to date both of them totally failed to accomplish. At the contrary, it was me who made Russia a good offer, even including the transfer of a region. A region I might add, while not as rich as Kars, has an even greater strategic value and would have allowed an immense pressure on the Ottoman capital for good. They rejected.
What the Greek has driven into and in this war has always been beyond me anyways. There was no hope for them to gain anything here in the minute they left the diplomatic stage, because not going to war was the only thing they could have possibly offered in return for more provinces but they were so full of anticipation, that they were completly oblivious to that. Same applies, to a lesser degree, to Russia. They had never had me as far down on my knees as in the month before the war. Yet they gambled. Poor fools.

Let's have a look on how I undertook the course of the war. I tried to make it clear from day one, that the only nations that had something to lose in this war was them, not me. I slowly escalated away from the diplomatic table and they didn't react as though they became aware of the fact that windows got closed. I invented the "Vow of Bursa" and they didn't seem to understamd that I meant it and seemed to be quite buffed that I took the opportunity of escalation against one of them, when it was presented to me. An opportunity that raised only because of the incompetence of my opponents, mind you, not the worth of my force. Yet still I didn't scorch the earth like a madman. I waited for an offer, a sign of peace. Which didn't came. Actually ridiculous, given the fact that their entire economy was on stake and their capital captured. Still they were counting on some obscure "reparations" to come, but what will never happen. What a gamble for a sane government was this. It left me with the impression that this government was indeed not sane but rather insane. Well, so may be it. I say clearly that the houserules, as well as the international treaties the Ottomans signed, as well as character consitancy backs all of my acts, and that they are not, as some have put it, an act of vandalism but the only way for me to win this war. I was not the aggressor here, after all.

I did my best to make it clear that my strategy was to wait this out and make it as expensive as I possibly can on your side and as a matter of fact, the expenses for your side grow with every turn, while they stay the same for me.
What can I lose, actually?
An army?
Compared with what is still in the forcepool anyway, I have no army.
Navy?
Same.
Industry and economy?
Same.
Occupation?
Be my guest. The more you occupy, the less I have to feed.
The future of the country?
Without the regions on stake the future is highly doubtful anyways.
What with regions then?
Well, that's the point where I could really still lose something. Ironically that's exactly the only thing that they can't force me to give away.

So, they don't offer me something for reaching their goals and yet can't threat me with anything. How they think they can wind themselves out of this dilemma is not my concern. In an asynchronous war the small participant wins when he doesn't lose, whereas the big participant loses when he fails to win. That's a truism my worthy opponents seem yet to have to swallow. I can do this for the next 980 turns.

[nemethand]

It was my impression in the past days that my messages to Russia and Greece in IC style haven't come across. So I try in OOC terms, though still meant as IC, to the interested public.

IC - They did. What are we supposed to do? Do as you wish? We still believe we are also allowed to think and behave like we consider suitable - just like the Turkish authority, be it whoever, wishes.

Be assured, the moment we believe we cannot win, Russia will offer a white peace.

[Jim-NC]

Red Event -

[ATTACH]23036[/ATTACH]

[Sir Garnet]

OOC @Citizen X: One way to take an OOC view while staying IC is as a newspaper or reporter or other observer or witness. In past I did it more often than recently. Although the Turks were rather jaded, particularly those with the most wealth, power and influence, invasion could support a religious fervor and long term jihad against the invader among many, particularly in more rustic and traditional areas. Perhaps those who oppose this would be silenced, and the persisting guerrilla and raiding war to wear down the enemy is a strategy. Unless other powers step in to block it, particularly disturbances near the canal, for example, the logic of such a war for the invader is to secure increasingly more territory. If the enemy cannot ever be destroyed, they can only be undercut logistically by ravaging the areas that support resistance (a barbarous approach that will have its own consequences) and then suitable for the invading forces to abandon. I've always thought that fighting such a defensive struggle in a suitably large country would be mildly entertaining and tactically challenging. Having been on the other side of this with France in Russia, occupation and crushing the rebels has its own intermittent successes but is also trying on one's patience.

Sometimes it is necessary to declare victory and go home, but in an autocratic state mere public pressure is unlikely to compell this, and if the object of the invader is simply to fight there forever to keep down the enemy then this can indeed go on and on. The skirmish battle reports should be interesting.

[Citizen X]

OOC @Citizen X: One way to take an OOC view while staying IC is as a newspaper or reporter or other observer or witness. In past I did it more often than recently. Although the Turks were rather jaded, particularly those with the most wealth, power and influence, invasion could support a religious fervor and long term jihad against the invader among many, particularly in more rustic and traditional areas. Perhaps those who oppose this would be silenced, and the persisting guerrilla and raiding war to wear down the enemy is a strategy. Unless other powers step in to block it, particularly disturbances near the canal, for example, the logic of such a war for the invader is to secure increasingly more territory. If the enemy cannot ever be destroyed, they can only be undercut logistically by ravaging the areas that support resistance (a barbarous approach that will have its own consequences) and then suitable for the invading forces to abandon. I've always thought that fighting such a defensive struggle in a suitably large country would be mildly entertaining and tactically challenging. Having been on the other side of this with France in Russia, occupation and crushing the rebels has its own intermittent successes but is also trying on one's patience.

Sometimes it is necessary to declare victory and go home, but in an autocratic state mere public pressure is unlikely to compell this, and if the object of the invader is simply to fight there forever to keep down the enemy then this can indeed go on and on. The skirmish battle reports should be interesting.

Well, some may have observed that my roleplay decreased a little. I grew a bit tired of it because the outcome never seemed to justify the effort. I have the impression to talk to brickwalls. The harsh ooc attacks against my person finally pushed my spirit for roleplaying beyond zero.
Also in the current war the Ottomans are the only ones trying to find a solution for an exit. But not any more. It is not our show after all. Let those try to end it who began it.

[Kensai]

Citizen X, nobody ever wished you 'harm' or 'misery' as a player. We simply wanted to score on the events that fired the moment you took over the Ottomans and make gains for our avatar nations. In the other game I play, the hardcore reality game in parallel, the situation was more hopeless actually, because I had the liberty to apply the whole package of potential realism to abstract the 'Balkan League' alliance of the Ottomans in such a war.

[Citizen X]

Citizen X, nobody ever wished you 'harm' or 'misery' as a player.

Still you publicly denunciated me as cheater, where putting it as questions in a public board even makes the case worse. An apology would have been in order. Anyway, next time maybe you try to put this forth in a more discrete way.

We simply wanted to score on the events that fired the moment you took over the Ottomans and make gains for our avatar nations.

And you totally miscalculated the consequences and the possible outcome. Now we all lose. Ottomans lose, Greece loses big time and even Russia loses. Even the world community loses. Have a look at Colombia, under human rule for just two years and what it throws on the common market already. Now multiply that with a functioning OE... time for you to make a reality check, I say.

In the other game I play, the hardcore reality game in parallel, the situation was more hopeless actually, because I had the liberty to apply the whole package of potential realism to abstract the 'Balkan League' alliance of the Ottomans in such a war.

If you would stick with reality and realism as much as you claim you would have agreed to an international conference in 1877 as I wanted and as was historic.

Anyway. All that is past.

[Kensai]

1) You do understand that assaulting a non-empty fortress is suicide. Now, I don't know how you managed to deduce there was not a single man inside protecting it, but given that there was no reconnaissance by your part (as my ships were out there patrolling) I made an educated guess that you perhaps pre-played the turn. I cannot prove it, but you did not care to explain how you did that risky move anyway. Let's just say that indeed the screenshot I posted helped you and it was all legit. My fault is that I cannot prove it. Your fault is that you cannot justify it.

2) What do you mean Greece loses? Greece loses if/when Russia loses. Unless these past developments say something wrong, Russia is making progress and will soon bring down the front door of the house! Colombia was doing great under glennbob as well, these are countries with many resources and very little population (internal market), they do very well in exports.

3) The conference was in 1878 when Adrianople was almost taken. The Treaty of San Stefano was agreed a few kilometers out of Constantinople. It happened in the 'Game of Victorian Thrones' (the AI itself yielded!), I presume it can always happen here as well if Russia manages to curb the resistance.

[Citizen X]

Talking to brickwalls. Talking to brickwalls.

[Sir Garnet]

1) You do understand that assaulting a non-empty fortress is suicide. Now, I don't know how you managed to deduce there was not a single man inside protecting it, but given that there was no reconnaissance by your part (as my ships were out there patrolling) I made an educated guess that you perhaps pre-played the turn. I cannot prove it, but you did not care to explain how you did that risky move anyway. Let's just say that indeed the screenshot I posted helped you and it was all legit. My fault is that I cannot prove it. Your fault is that you cannot justify it.

(OOC) If referring to the Ottomans beating the Greeks at Salonika on their way through, the Ottomans were marching through and the Greeks decided to stay outside the defenses seeking a field battle. Opening a public accusation without solid foundation was wrongf and investigation should have been pursued privately first.

[Jonathan Pollard]

時事月報 (Current Affairs Monthly) April 1879

Enemy Resistance Light on Hokkaido

Sino-Americans Gain Nearly Half of Nip Isle

(By The Associated Press)

One of the most vital blows of the Asian war was struck on March 30, Sunday morning (Japanese time) by a Sino-American force when Yank and Chinese soldiers and marines invaded Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's four main islands.

The Japanese offered amazingly light opposition among the 9,000-yard west coast beachheads. Initial Allied casualties were exceptionally light, but commanders felt there was a tough fight ahead.

In a second Sunday communiqué, US General John Pope announced the Allies advanced rapidly throughout the day and by 6 p.m. (Tokyo time) forward elements of both the infantry and marines had broken out of their beachheads and seized Sapporo, capital city of Hokkaido.

Enemy resistance continued light. Landing beaches were secured against small arms fire and landing of supplies was started immediately.

Heavy warships supported the landing, but no sign of enemy naval resistance was encountered.

Hokkaido, standing guard at the entrance to the Tsugaru Strait separating Hokkaido from the main Japanese island of Honshu, will give the Allies a new base for continuing their offensive against the Japanese homeland. US Fleet Rear Admiral John L. Worden declared: “as our sea blockade cuts the enemy off from the world and as our offensive increases in strength and proficiency, our final decisive victory is assured.”

The Hokkaido invasion armada of more than 140 ships put ashore elements of a Sino-American army that may total 300,000 fighting men. They face about 80,000 Japanese defenders on the 165-mile-long island.

It was apparent that the invasion drove Japanese soldiers to the hills. The Nipponese offered little opposition on land and none at sea as assault waves hit the beaches. An hour later they engaged in a brief cavalry action on the northern flank.

Reporting from Hokkaido, Associated Press War Correspondent Robbin Coons said waves of troops and supplies continued to pour ashore Sunday afternoon while American and Chinese ships patrolled the seas.

[Kensai]

(OOC) If referring to the Ottomans beating the Greeks at Salonika on their way through, the Ottomans were marching through and the Greeks decided to stay outside the defenses seeking a field battle. Opening a public accusation without solid foundation was wrongf and investigation should have been pursued privately first.

I was referring to the initial landing in Athens, but that was a very "fortunate" incident as well, considering that out of the 10 possible turns I had those troops ducked behind a wall, the Ottos marched the moment the Greeks had sallied forth. Too many coincidences.

A pass through order? In a territory without relevant recon? With the Russians lurking nearby? Really?

PS. Funny thing, these last two turns that I submitted orders without Citizen probably expecting it, I found some serious errors of judgement in the Ottoman defense. I really hope nemethand goes for the whole package.

[Citizen X]

The Khedive of Egypt.

The new Egyptian government thanks the German government for the quick and constructive solution in the current war. We repeat here that Suez is theirs and should by any incident the city fall back under the Khedive's rule, the Channel of Suez will still be considered as German prperty and be treated as such.

[Jim-NC]

Troubles in Ireland.

[ATTACH]23052[/ATTACH]

[nemethand]

We have noted that Ottoman forces on the run had adopted a scorched earth strategy, which, on a side note, had been adopted by a great Russian general, Mikhail_Kutuzov.

We want to hereby publicise that we mean no harm to the Ottoman population. In fact, should you or anyone in charge decide to accept our terms or start negotiating at least on their basis, Russian advance into mainland Turkey would immediately stop.

Our forces have ample supply, both in summer and winter, as you may have experienced up until now in this war. By burning fields, fishing harbours and the like you are not hurting the Russian soldiers; you are hurting your own countrymen, women and children. Russian logistics have been ordered to distribute any surplus remaining from field rations to the Ottoman population, who have no means of supplying themselves because retreating Ottoman forces burn and destroy all economic facilities.

It is high time you reconsider before winter comes and your people start to starve.

Russian High Command

[Citizen X]

We have noted that Ottoman forces on the run had adopted a scorched earth strategy, which, on a side note, had been adopted by a great Russian general, Mikhail_Kutuzov.

We want to hereby publicise that we mean no harm to the Ottoman population. In fact, should you or anyone in charge decide to accept our terms or start negotiating at least on their basis, Russian advance into mainland Turkey would immediately stop.

Our forces have ample supply, both in summer and winter, as you may have experienced up until now in this war. By burning fields, fishing harbours and the like you are not hurting the Russian soldiers; you are hurting your own countrymen, women and children. Russian logistics have been ordered to distribute any surplus remaining from field rations to the Ottoman population, who have no means of supplying themselves because retreating Ottoman forces burn and destroy all economic facilities.

It is high time you reconsider before winter comes and your people start to starve.

Russian High Command

This belongs to the most perfidious expositions of a farce in human history. The agressor comes as benefactor. It is the population that burns their fields before they fall into the hands of the cossacks, as a sign of their determination. They have been starving for decades because of the crusades that have been conducted against them. Every time they built up a little bit of subsistance another christian nation ails their bloodthirst on them. Please don't pretend as though you didn't know that most of the newly built wheatfields haven't been in regions that you claimed for yourself and your lackays.
We are indeed convinced that this is a plot to eradicate the Ottoman Empire as a whole and this is only the prelude to it. We have made so many offers since the start of the war and even before the start. All of them have been rejected, so that we consider any words futile. We don't trust your word anyways. You have started the war, now seek to end it.


We are asking our good neighbors, Austria, to take care of our people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We entrust you protection of their property and the free expression and practice of religion like building mosques and the pilgrimage to Mecca.

[lukasberger]

We are asking our good neighbors, Austria, to take care of our people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We entrust you protection of their property and the free expression and practice of religion like building mosques and the pilgrimage to Mecca.

Austria accepts this responsibility and will guarantee religious freedom for all Muslims in Bosnia, and all of our territories.

We are currently beginning the administrative preparations for the transfer. They will likely take some few days to complete.

[Citizen X]

First uprisings in Russian-controlled Eastern Anatolia.

[Citizen X]

The Khedive of Egypt looks with concern at the war on his borders. He announces the detachment of some small brigades to protect the Holy cites and cities in Western Arabia. We wish no involvement ibn the conflict, however.

[Sir Garnet]

For the reasons stated in http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?28299-PON-Conflict-in-Europe-Diplomacy-amp-News-Thread&p=276290&viewfull=1#post276290 and other ample good cause, the Empire of Brazil, without response to terms asked of Japan, has published the formal documentation necessary to prosecute by military means its case against the Empire of Japan.

[Jim-NC]

To the Government of the Netherlands:

It has come to my government's attention that the government of the Netherlands has decided recently to cancel their defensive agreement with China. We are wondering what the Netherlands is up to. It is odd that as the Netherlands has a defensive agreement with China, and that China's biggest defender/ally is currently the United States, that the Netherlands would decide to throw all that away to join in common cause with Japan, a nation with which it has negative relations.

We would remind the Netherlands that Britain, and other nations have Defensive alliances with America, and thus if you declare war, we will be forced to respond in kind.

Prime Minister Disraeli, Conservative Party

[Kensai]

(btw, just for the record, I have not cancelled any DA... it must have been cancelled by the engine...)

Anyway, the Dutch PM asks the British Empire to honor their neutrality and cancel any DAs with the belligerent parts, including China, USA, Japan, Germany or any other implicated in Korea.

[Jim-NC]

To the Dutch PM,

We are neutral in the war against Japan. We still maintain our DA, and will honor it when the time comes. We shall not start the war, but we will help finish it.