[PON] Conflict in Europe - General Thread

[bjfagan]

I propose running the following script for the agreed upon peace between Germany and Egypt.

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Suez
StartEvent = German-Egyptian Peace Treaty: Suez Ceded|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Suez|NULL

Actions

SelectFaction = $Ger
SelectRegion = $Suez
  ChangeRgnOwner = EGY

ChangeResStock = $merDiplomat;-1
SettleWhitePeace = EGY
ChgFacRelationships = EGY;-25

EndEvent

[De_Spinoza]

Never go full retard!

Hm, going 'full retard' does sound vaguely exciting. Perhaps we could reach full retardation by mandating that this game and the associated diplomacy may only be played when drunk or under the influence of mood-altering drugs. We could even tie the in game prestige valve to the level of retardation of a players' avatar nation and diplomacy roleplay. The first player to reach 'full retardation' wins! The ensuing anger-tantrums and personal feuds would transform the game into something much alike one of the infamous tear-fuelled reality shows. Imagine the excitement, the drama. 'Vainglory' will be redefined!

Worth a vote...

[lukasberger]

Wow, this exact situation except for the USA when Japan started a war with Russia and Germany. The USA was friends with Japan then, and wanted an independent and strong Japan to balance the Pacific. However, because the USA didn't declare war unilaterally on Russia and Germany for no other reason than Japan also did, the USA was informed it was a "traitor and to be treated as such." All agreements (supply, passage, commercial) were then unilaterally cancelled by Japan. That was when the USA and Japan ceased being friends and the USA moved closer to China. This seems a natural course for the USA to take given the circumstances, I don't understand the confusion about where the USA's loyalties lie, or actions coming to the aid of an ally under attack.

Seems similar indeed. The only difference is that Austria didn't even have any treaties with Japan. Just fairly friendly relations and the promise of a commercial agreement! But we're still supposed to dow the world, including your USA with whom we actually do have an alliance, and Germany with whom we have a NAP, or else we're scum.

[Sir Garnet]

Hm, going 'full retard' does sound vaguely exciting. Perhaps we could reach full retardation by mandating that this game and the associated diplomacy may only be played when drunk or under the influence of mood-altering drugs. We could even tie the in game prestige valve to the level of retardation of a players' avatar nation and diplomacy roleplay. The first player to reach 'full retardation' wins! The ensuing anger-tantrums and personal feuds would transform the game into something much alike one of the infamous tear-fuelled reality shows. Imagine the excitement, the drama. 'Vainglory' will be redefined!

Worth a vote...

@Full Retard: Moved posts from Dip forum as, however valid the sentiment, the verbiage was quite OOC for the lofty expression of the period. Now, for an excellent full retard game, the Cold War with nuke tipped missiles is a much better scenario. Not like the card game Nuclear War, in very bad taste of course and shocking to non-gamers, but something like the forthcoming Paradox Cold War game, played by bleary-eyed drunken emo madmen armed with shaky mouse hands and nuke-tipped missiles.

[Sir Garnet]

Regarding Japan, there is certainly a cultural basis as well as political and military reasons for defensive obstinacy and fanaticism. However, the late 19th Century would be in my view be the least likely of times for this approach to prevail because Japan was still striving anxiously to be recognized as a power treated with on equal terms rather than as a colonial target and to develop itself to catch up with the western powers by soaking up western technology and expertise, cherry picking the best it could find from the west. An ethos of order, discipline, and obedience in the best interest of the nation would be governed largely by practical calculation at this time. Thoughtless fanaticism of the WW2 kind is anachronistic as a state policy in the last quarter of the 19th century, and would have been seen as a petulant self-indulgence undermining the success of Japan.

Specifically regarding occupation, it is true the Japanese would fight vigorously against such an appalling prospect as being occupied by foreign barbarians. But hey would also struggle vigorously to avoid it, hence a face saving peace to bide their time would be most in character.

[Kensai]

Not even remotely my own words. And wasn't telling you that I play that way, was telling you how others play. I was trying to educate you, since you clearly don't understand how many people play the game.

I don't need your 'education', thanks. Honestly, if I knew this kind of gaming was allowed I would have asked to veto the entry of more players, let alone be the one to openly suggest for adding more.

I really didn't understand at first why your Japan has made so many enemies. It's now become perfectly clear to me, given how you treat your friends.

See? Q.E.D.
This is EXACTLY the problem we have. People keep confusing forum talk with avatar nation diplomacy. I can call you jerk here, but this does not mean that my Japanese embassy sent an FU telegram in Wien. Get a grip with reality, please.

In game Japan has never antagonized anyone who did not step into its inner circle of comfort, ie the most proximal of SOI colonial regions. I warned Russia and Germany in the past for Kuriles and Okinawa, respectively. I only triggered the war when they would not listen. The Sino-Japanese war in this alternate reality has been followed by me solely and exclusively on "roleplaying" the four events that fired in a row. There is no emotion in my avatar nation actions, I simply roleplay using historical realism*. Period. Japan never joined coalitions against other nations and the only "sin" that did was to allow its bases to be used by the Americans in the 50s to attack... (tah-dun tah-dun) China!!!

As I've been saying many times, the game is long, very long... some of us came late, some of us forget. This is a major problem when players come and go and completely forget the policies of their predecessors, but it could happen as it happen in real life with Russia in the 7-years war.

(*which you continue to confuse what it really means, ie no, it does NOT mean have a map exactly as the historical one)

There were three turns without ord files submitted. A group of us decided to put Japan to AI so there won't be any issues. We have no idea if you are looking at the turns or abandoning the country. At the very least submit something.

What did you just do?!!!?!??!!?
You fool, the AI could send an unwanted peace offer!! Wtf decided without telling me?

House rules allow for not submitting orders up to a week before turning a nation to AI and I made it CLEAR I was reading what's happening. And there was NOTHING I wanted to submit, I watch my turns almost every day.

[Irish_Brigade]

Hey all, sorry to jump into your thread but was wondering. Does anyone know of a good video walk through of the game? I downloaded the Demo last night because you all have caused me to have an interest in this game. But the tutarials have so far bored the hell out of me and i dont think i learned anything lol. SO I want to see if the game is enjoyable in demo before i buy it.

[Kensai]

Wow, this exact situation except for the USA when Japan started a war with Russia and Germany. The USA was friends with Japan then, and wanted an independent and strong Japan to balance the Pacific. However, because the USA didn't declare war unilaterally on Russia and Germany for no other reason than Japan also did, the USA was informed it was a "traitor and to be treated as such." All agreements (supply, passage, commercial) were then unilaterally cancelled by Japan. That was when the USA and Japan ceased being friends and the USA moved closer to China. This seems a natural course for the USA to take given the circumstances, I don't understand the confusion about where the USA's loyalties lie, or actions coming to the aid of an ally under attack.

What? OK, I just responded about this in the post above but let me be more explicit.

Japan, especially Japan that had just emerged out of the Shoguns, considered USA its protector. This was the policy back when bjfagan was playing USA and you continued it under President Lincoln during your Civil War and beyond. I was about to be colonized by Russia (which was to play a stake on Kuriles) and Prussia (which had already colonized Ryukyu). USA remained silent. Japan did not implicate the USA through defensive machinations. It had already declared war valiantly against both of them. Japan simply needed its big brother to its side, something that would have been nice for the American foreign policy since it was already aligned against them in various fronts (including Europe).

I am also confused about a supposedly friendly Vezina controlled France and Kensai controlled Japan. If my memory serves, Vezina's France at some point declared war on Kensai's Japan, although I cannot for the life of me remember the exact circumstances. I only remember private messages from Vezina's France expressing extreme frustration with Kensai's Japan and giving the USA (as France's ally) a head's up that he was declaring war on Japan.

Hmm, not exactly. He only did that to avoid the Prestige penalty because of the chain reaction of DOWs that had reached him. It was one of the low points of the game. A gamey action I had condemned. But in fact France was playing intelligently by Vezina. Vezina understood that in order to antagonize a powerful Germany he needed a friend in the Far East. And Japan needed a partner in Europe (apart from Great Britain). Our nations actually flirted with each other.

Now that USA and France turned sour on Japan, I was expecting Austria-Hungary and Germany to step into that role, but no, because lukasberger's nations play emotionally and hold grudges, we actually see a very unrealistic situation. So be it.

(btw, do not want to hear insinuations I am doing obstructionism here... I am not stalling, if my nation becomes occupied completely and for long enough, we should pass with script the colonies of Ryukyu and Kuriles to the victors, but to force me do peace, no this is uncool... Japan means TOTAL WAR!! oops, other title)

[bjfagan]

Early April 1879

[Kensai]

bjfagan, you should put to vote every script you implement in case of voices against. I was not agreeing with the passage of Suez to Prussia. You are breaking the house rules at every opportunity you get. Stop doing that, it's as bad as cheating.

[Citizen X]

I was referring to the initial landing in Athens, but that was a very "fortunate" incident as well, considering that out of the 10 possible turns I had those troops ducked behind a wall, the Ottos marched the moment the Greeks had sallied forth. Too many coincidences.

A pass through order? In a territory without relevant recon? With the Russians lurking nearby? Really?

PS. Funny thing, these last two turns that I submitted orders without Citizen probably expecting it, I found some serious errors of judgement in the Ottoman defense. I really hope nemethand goes for the whole package.

Is there really no way that I could possibly deal with that.

He is totally spoiling the game for me. Is there really nobody else here that can possibly hepl me not getting falsly accused and insulted all the way? Is there really no other person here that thinks we would be much better off if he simply left.?


The relevant game files had been checked and everything been found in order. I had PERFECT reckon of every region I moved in. And hadn't you totally frightened the hell out of me with your accusations and changed my plans, today you wouldnt even have an army left to play with.

[Sir Garnet]

These are 2 rar files from PhilThib fixing some of the issues previously discussed (and fixed for a time with Game Files), which are added for the WIC game and should be added here.

Both should be extracted to VGN\Gamedata inside your PON installation location. A copy of the files (non-RAR is in the Game Files dropbox folder. These are mainly to fix the Mali and Niamey issues previously mentioned.

[nemethand]

I was referring to the initial landing in Athens, but that was a very "fortunate" incident as well, considering that out of the 10 possible turns I had those troops ducked behind a wall, the Ottos marched the moment the Greeks had sallied forth. Too many coincidences.

A pass through order? In a territory without relevant recon? With the Russians lurking nearby? Really?

PS. Funny thing, these last two turns that I submitted orders without Citizen probably expecting it, I found some serious errors of judgement in the Ottoman defense. I really hope nemethand goes for the whole package.

Is there really no way that I could possibly deal with that.

He is totally spoiling the game for me. Is there really nobody else here that can possibly hepl me not getting falsly accused and insulted all the way? Is there really no other person here that thinks we would be much better off if he simply left.?


The relevant game files had been checked and everything been found in order. I had PERFECT reckon of every region I moved in. And hadn't you totally frightened the hell out of me with your accusations and changed my plans, today you wouldnt even have an army left to play with.

Kensai, could you please drop this subject? It really (i) has no further relevance, whatsoever; and (ii) poisons the feeling on the forums and in the community. We're here to have FUN!

You said: more gaming, less speaking!

[bjfagan]

bjfagan, you should put to vote every script you implement in case of voices against. I was not agreeing with the passage of Suez to Prussia. You are breaking the house rules at every opportunity you get. Stop doing that, it's as bad as cheating.

We had discussed this issue for several weeks and you were the only one opposed. Within the 24 hour period of my proposing the script, no one (not even you) said anything.

And we have seen scripts and fixes from you without a vote too, so don't start now... especially considering that you have basically abandoned any administrative responsibility for this game.

[bjfagan]

Late April 1879

[Kensai]

You probably missed the memo. We vote every time there is a single against opinion, we pass them as they are if no opinion is expressed. I was quite vocal against this script, thus according to older discussions (in the old forum as well) and as per house rules (which again you broke) you should have put this on vote and respected a 3-days voting period and further Dropbox discussion.

I don't understand who are these "shadow characters" who discuss things behind our backs (for example to set my avatar nation in AI). Half of the players that play nations in this game don't respond to messages, I am not even sure they read this forum and the ongoing discussions (which per se is another house rules' issue, given that we've written explicitly that this is not allowed and players are required to follow stuff happening here).

I understand you feel frustrated getting this flak, it's not out of spite, but now that you got the role of primary host you need to understand you have certain responsibilities for a fluid game. For example, have you explained thoroughly to players why I insisted that this change should not be allowed? Have you told them that this is an extended claim (Germany has no claim on Egyptian national land) and that there is a loophole in the engine that now only Germany and its passage-rights' friends will be able to use Suez? At least the abstraction of having Suez under Egypt was better given that more nations could agree for passage rights with minor Egypt without issues, giving otherwise uninteresting Egypt some kind of leverage on this. Last but not least, astonishingly, you still haven't passed the 10% Prestige penalty on your avatar nation (Germany) for doing an unqualified and undocumented Casus Belli against Japan. This is important cause some players do their alliance decisions according to in-game balances of power and probably are waiting to see where Germany stands in the new rankings. Yet another disrespect of the house rules.

How many more instances of unfair play should we put up with? I don't persecute you, I want you to be a better host.

[Sir Garnet]

The owner of Suez province having to give passage rights is a procrustean solution to the international transit issue. Acquiescing in German ownership is based on such passage rights for all until the patch fixes the international status of Suez so that anyone can pass, with the possibility that it is a structure that can be switched on and off. Ownership of the Suez canal structure should be a separate matter from ownership of Suez, though they may be in the same hands.

By the way, as a model for such a case, how is a situation like the historical Anglo-Egyptian arrangement of the 1880s - essentially a puppet or protectorate - represented in the game events or possible in the engine?

[Kensai]

That's why I've been saying that the best abstracted solution was to give the region to Egypt and the structure to Germany. Egypt could then give (or be coerced to give) passage rights to all nations wishing to pass Suez. And all this, temporary until Pocus fixes the whole issue in v1.04.

But who's hearing me...

[bjfagan]

Last but not least, astonishingly, you still haven't passed the 10% Prestige penalty on your avatar nation (Germany) for doing an unqualified and undocumented Casus Belli against Japan. This is important cause some players do their alliance decisions according to in-game balances of power and probably are waiting to see where Germany stands in the new rankings. Yet another disrespect of the house rules.

I had the cause of war, which was over Japan's violation of Ryukyu's independence (when creating a Japanese Colony), as guaranteed by Japan in the peace treaty with Germany. However, since this is the time you decided to start another big debate over... whatever, I have forgotten now.... then you got upset at the other players, quit your involvement in hosting the game, decided to focus on your new side-show of "Kensai's Ass-Kicking the AI" game and basically abandoned Japan for 3 turns in our game... I got a little busy and justifying the German war in the forum became a rather pointless and low priority matter.

So far, you are still the only one complaining about the Suez script. Think of the major country players and you will know who the "shadow characters" are.

[Citizen X]

I might not be able to submit turns over the weekend because my DSL modem went down (sendintg this from work :innocent . Replacement will definitly not be there tomorrow´and maybe not until Monday. So if I don't manage to get to any net, there will be no turns issued for OE, Egypt, Colombia.

[Kensai]

I had the cause of war, which was over Japan's violation of Ryukyu's independence (when creating a Japanese Colony), as guaranteed by Japan in the peace treaty with Germany.

What violation? The treaty was quite explicit in this matter, Japan could colonize Ryukyu and actually it should have seen no hindrance by Prussia in this matter.

However, since this is the time you decided to start another big debate over... whatever, I have forgotten now.... then you got upset at the other players, quit your involvement in hosting the game, decided to focus on your new side-show of "Kensai's Ass-Kicking the AI" game and basically abandoned Japan for 3 turns in our game... I got a little busy and justifying the German war in the forum became a rather pointless and low priority matter.

So, giving your avatar nation's a region which is a game breaker (for various reasons: rules wise and engine wise) is ok, but not giving your nation its due Prestige penalty is "a low priority matter"? How so?

Btw, since you mentioned it, the AI game was much more reasonable regarding what happened, surprise: Germany did not hold grudges, responded to diplomacy, the USA did not declare a crazy war (and won a crisis with much more prestige for it in the end!), and Russia kicked the Ottomans' ass without me doing almost anything. It is really pathetic when the AI gets to be a better player* than humans, ain't it?

(*that was not nemethand's fault, but the Ottoman's not doing the daring-no-recon assault on Athens)

So far, you are still the only one complaining about the Suez script. Think of the major country players and you will know who the "shadow characters" are.

Listen, for the last time, this is getting out of control. I have respected all game rules so far, you need to learn the rules yourself. Everyone who signed up on this game signed to respect the house rules. You started a secret motion to turn my avatar nation to AI with unnamed players (don't care who they are) which was uncalled for, given that I said more than once that I had no orders to give for my nation. We have had nations that have not responded to in game or out of game diplomacy in the past too (Netherlands, Persia, etc), I did not see you so eager to turn them to AI as well.

Learn to play fair. That's all I am asking.

[bjfagan]

You started a secret motion to turn my avatar nation to AI with unnamed players (don't care who they are) which was uncalled for, given that I said more than once that I had no orders to give for my nation.

Actually, I was not the one who started it. I just followed along.

[nemethand]

I might not be able to submit turns over the weekend because my DSL modem went down (sendintg this from work :innocent . Replacement will definitly not be there tomorrow´and maybe not until Monday. So if I don't manage to get to any net, there will be no turns issued for OE, Egypt, Colombia.

You might want to ask someone to replace you for the weekend.

[bjfagan]

Early May 1879

There is going to be a delay.

[Kensai]

Actually, I was not the one who started it. I just followed along.

Great. Tell that someone that secret motions do not count, it is not his game to do as he pleases. We follow some basic game rules we all voted, those who don't want to follow these rules are free to leave the game.

You might want to ask someone to replace you for the weekend.

Or let bjfagan set him to AI.

[bjfagan]

Late May 1879

[Citizen X]

We have noted that Ottoman forces on the run had adopted a scorched earth strategy, which, on a side note, had been adopted by a great Russian general, Mikhail_Kutuzov.

We want to hereby publicise that we mean no harm to the Ottoman population. In fact, should you or anyone in charge decide to accept our terms or start negotiating at least on their basis, Russian advance into mainland Turkey would immediately stop.

Our forces have ample supply, both in summer and winter, as you may have experienced up until now in this war. By burning fields, fishing harbours and the like you are not hurting the Russian soldiers; you are hurting your own countrymen, women and children. Russian logistics have been ordered to distribute any surplus remaining from field rations to the Ottoman population, who have no means of supplying themselves because retreating Ottoman forces burn and destroy all economic facilities.

It is high time you reconsider before winter comes and your people start to starve.

Russian High Command

Or, to be more honest, I had no problem to give in to your demands, had you earned it in regal play. But this thing had foulplay written all over it from day one. And I presume on your behalf the social and cerebral intelligence to fully understand what you are doing.

So... for the sake of good sportsmanship and fairplay, I am not going to reward this with any concessions whatsoever. No regions, no transfer of money, nothing. I have said all this from day one on several occasions.

This here, with all the foulplay involved, the heavy metagaming in 1877, the insulting and accusing, belongs to the most disgusting gaming experiences of my entire life, in a strategy-gaming enviroment anyways. Your complete oblivience to the content of any of my posts doesnt make it any better.

What outrages me the most is that the outcome of this war could have been scripted when I took over. You already had Kars and Bulgaria in your possession, I would have been glad to exchange Thrace and Batumi for Epiros and Thessalia and couldn't have complained about any border drawn for me there. But you didn't do that. You wanted a good hunt, preferebly against a human. But you had it plotted anyway, even before I took over OE, wich you didn't bother to notify me of. So you gave all the regions that you wanted to earn by warfare back into the hands of the OE. Same as you would release a deer of its transportbox just to shoot it an hour later. You thought that you could, just as always, pop into OE, grab something and be out of it ere lunch.

Now it is not happening and you seem absolutly clueless about how to end this and why I am not giving in to your demands. I have given up hope to come through to you with any distinctive words. Whatever I say, you keep posting the same two phrases, as if I was talking to a bot. "What do you want me to do?" and "When do you start to negotiate?"

I am trying to answer them now in simple words:
"Get the frack out of my country, dude." and "Never."

I have been good sports so far, even when it got lower than low and now I am completely fed up with this.

I am not going to reward you two for trying to cannibalizing other peoples fun for your own amusement.


It is

not going

to happen.



You have totally missed the point when there was still something in it for you. Basically already when didn't bother to negotiate yourself but declared war on me in 1877.


I hope I have made my point clear enough now.






PS: I am also in the comfortable situation that my proceedings fully comply with the houserules as well as with any possible roleplaying aspect. So don't bet your money on a change of conduct here.

PPS: To all you others. There is another reason but my stubborn insistance on the guidelines of fairplay in gaming. Have a look on the map. OE is surrounded by a highly belligerent and expansionistic nation (Russia) on three corners and a mad king in Greece on the forth. It has many built in flaws, like having a capital being objective to another country (Russia), the inabillity to build new units on the european part of your country (including the capital) and the asian part being marked as colonies (making all of them legit for annexation). Thus you have said belligerent nation in the position to legitly annexing your entire country. Wich makes me say:
"The Borg won't stay on deck 11."
I am convinced that those two have the plans for it in the drawer already and now taking quick advantage of the OEs weakness to take positions (like Kars) to make it possible in the future. Before a human player builds up something there that makes this course of actions impossible.

[Kensai]

I didn't understand a thing of your rumblings, but I can only say one thing... if you are not gonna respect the game's house rules, we have a serious problem. There have been many instances of breaking the rules these past turns and it is gamebreaking. It seems that the only players here are the "vocal ones": me, you, bj, Garnet, etc. It's not only us, you have to respect a great bunch of other players that silently submit orders and expect a relatively decent game.

Regarding how you conduct your own war: since this is the arcade version of "Conflict in Europe", I personally have no issue whatsoever have a continuous war with you (as Greece), but as long as Russia and Greece claim regions that are NOT extended claims, in case you decide for obstructionism, we should be able to transfer said regions with scripts and you can feel free to keep this war on for as long as you want. Bear with me, I understand you, I would have done the same with my own avatar (Japan) but under NO CIRCUMSTANCE I would obstruct the flow of the game for other players nor BREAK ANY HOUSE RULES regarding normal allowed claims.

It is silly to accuse nemethand for leading on an ingame scripted event and following the historical reality of the 1877-8 war. And what Greek mad King, the king is alive and well and is besieging his own capital together with some other 100K Russian soldiers. Where is the madness in being alive and well and fighting for one's capital? If one was mad, then it was the Sultan who did not accept the initial offer to spare his country.

[Jim-NC]

Kensai,
Citizen X is expressing his view of things. He was asked to join the game, and then was told that it was good he was joining as that way Russia had a human player to defeat, and that Russia had held off declaring war to wait for the human player.

How is his situation different from Japan's? You have stated publicly that you will not surrender until after the complete and utter occupation of you nation, and that even then you will continue to not accept peace. You did that with Greece (when Germany invaded), and you had lost your entire country, but you refused to negotiate until the country started to riot (it was like 1 year of German occupation as I recall).

To Citizen X,
I am sorry that you feel the way you do, and have had the experience you have had. I can understand your frustration, and it is unfortunate that we did not explain things better to you, so that you could know what would happen to you and your country as soon as you started the game. It would have led to a better experience for you.

[Citizen X]

Kensai,
Citizen X is expressing his view of things. He was asked to join the game, and then was told that it was good he was joining as that way Russia had a human player to defeat, and that Russia had held off declaring war to wait for the human player.

How is his situation different from Japan's? You have stated publicly that you will not surrender until after the complete and utter occupation of you nation, and that even then you will continue to not accept peace. You did that with Greece (when Germany invaded), and you had lost your entire country, but you refused to negotiate until the country started to riot (it was like 1 year of German occupation as I recall).

To Citizen X,
I am sorry that you feel the way you do, and have had the experience you have had. I can understand your frustration, and it is unfortunate that we did not explain things better to you, so that you could know what would happen to you and your country as soon as you started the game. It would have led to a better experience for you.

I hold no grudge against nemethand btw. Have told him that by email a while ago and it hasn't changed since.