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Kensai
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:13 pm

Hey, don't bash me that I play by the rules of the game, albeit its limitations. :)

How could I end the war with the AI without occupying Beijing? Jonathan joined the game when the dice had been cast for the invasion. Regarding Denmark, I don't think that occupying the country would have meant a new monarch for Denmark. That player definitely screwed his assault (if you recall he DOWed thinking that France was already at war, lol) but it was his right to stay occupied for almost as long as he wanted, after all, sooner or later the population satisfaction lowers so much you cannot do anything without surrendering.

Regarding Egypt, Suez, etc... do NOT insist. Unless you want to change the house rules we all agreed, Suez is an extended claim for Germany.

Except for a few aberrations I believe this game has followed a plausible historical path quite well. What has been suggested so far for scripts hasn't really altered that direction, so I do not see any real problems.

Apart from the hilarious incidents of the Zulu King in Siberia, I tend to agree. The only reason this game is not a mess of unhistorical exaggerations, though, is because Kensai decided to be 'that bad guy' to say no to every irrational request and take the flak in the process.

I believe I have a rather good record of 'I told you so' in this game. Most of the things I've noted have become parts of the patches. Mark my words, the various minor imprecisions you accept so openly will come to haunt you in the long term (and make this game less enjoyable).
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bjfagan
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:48 pm

Kensai wrote:Apart from the hilarious incidents of the Zulu King in Siberia, I tend to agree. The only reason this game is not a mess of unhistorical exaggerations, though, is because Kensai decided to be 'that bad guy' to say no to every irrational request and take the flak in the process.

I believe I have a rather good record of 'I told you so' in this game. Most of the things I've noted have become parts of the patches. Mark my words, the various minor imprecisions you accept so openly will come to haunt you in the long term (and make this game less enjoyable).


That is your opinion and I disagree with it. So, we can agree to disagree. I have no personal grudge, but the Germans do. :D

I will put the Suez and Tsingtao issues up for a vote when I get the chance to draft everything. Since we are now in an "arcade like" game there should be no objections from Kensai and we can continue our game.

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bjfagan
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:43 pm

I assume Kensai will no longer process our "arcade" game. Hopefully, someone else can be a backup.

Late December 1878.

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nemethand
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:06 pm

lukasberger wrote:From what I've seen, myself and most others are simply playing their nations as if we were real 19th century nations trying to reach our own self assigned goals. We don't really care about the rankings. So when you attack Germany like you did, Brian/Germany remembers and holds a grudge. Just like people and nations do in reality. That's the reality of the game, that's what I was trying to explain to you above. We're not the ai, we're not only concerned with the rankings. It seems you've gotten yourself in trouble by not realizing this.


Exactly. Although looking at the rankings from time to time, I rather set objectives for my nation and try to achieve those.

lukasberger wrote:You attacked him without warning, when he wasn't prepared for a war. You changed the history of the game. You created history by doing what you did, a history where Germany and Japan are enemies. So yes it makes sense. Believe me, it has everything to do with punishing Japan and nothing to do with being afraid of you as a player.

I even told you that this would happen, and that Germany was gunning for you. In fact I also told you that's why I wouldn't help you, not only cause I was considering quitting, but because I wasn't going to ally with Japan and put myself on Germany's hitlist too.

You must've thought I was joking about Germany or something. I wasn't. Germany really is out to get you, due to the war you initiated with them before. You ignored that fact, in spite of being warned about it because it didn't fit in with your preconceived notions of how to play the game so you figured it couldn't happen. It did, and you knew it would well ahead of time, since I'd told you so. So I'm not sure it's Brian that's making the major strategic errors here.

You don't seem to realize that you're playing with other humans here. Like all humans we're quirky, somewhat illogical at times, have different goals and motivations and go about reaching those in different ways. We form friendships, hold grudges and have long memories at times, short memories at others. Sometimes we act on narrow self interest, sometimes we're benevolent.


I consider this an excellent comment, Lukas. Agree with every word of it.

Kensai wrote: I don't think there was any mistake by my part long term. This war will only weaken the nations taking part, it will not offer to them anything in the long term other than letting GBR further get away on Prestige. Unfortunately, it might be too late when the others get this. Japan is decades ahead of actually getting Formosa (1895) or Korea (1905), it's not a big deal if it does not succeed now.

But in game terms, it will be disastrous for the others.

The problem with the game is HINDSIGHT. It is rather the problem in this kind of games. Both Spinoza and coolbean perhaps guess that a strong Japan might come and challenge them later. This is ok. What is not ok is that the rest of players are not responding (for whatever reason) and not adapting accordingly. As I said, I don't find this realistic.


Kensai, you might or might not be right. But, again, like when we had our share of arguments, I told you, Lukas or anyone else might equally be right and it may happen then, in that case, you are wrong. This war might be detrimental directly to its participants or indirectly to those nations who are not coming to Japan's aid, for whatever reason. Or, alternatively, since nothing is scripted, it may turn out that France, the USA or Germany will actually benefit from it.

You have to accept other players' style as it is. It is surely determined by various factors - real life constraints, general mood, flow of the game, losing or gaining interest etc. I myself was extremely devoted in the beginning, drafting long letters and diplomatic notes, enjoying every moment I spent with both playing the game itself and trying step into the shoes of the Russian autocrat. I equally enjoyed and still do reading correspondence and public notes by others, in particular, you. For various reasons, however, the level of my devotion decreased. It has not reached the level that I would consider quitting but I have obviously become less focused on publicly posting.

EDIT: just realised this should go into the general forum. But since most of the discussion has taken - and will most likely - take place here, I have decided not to move my comment.

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coolbean
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Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:06 pm

Like nemethand said I don't want to reply here but this is where the conversation is...

I feel that since my name was mentioned I should put my two cents in;

In short, Kensai's Japan has alienated every friend it could have possibly had. Obviously Russia and Germany will have natural animosity towards Japan for an unprovoked attack. Actually, this reminds me of a story I like to tell about the German Army that I read in a book by Max Boot*; during the Boxer Rebellion the Boxers stormed the Peking international district where the delegations from other nations were. The Boxers dragged the German ambassador from his house and decapitated him in the middle of the street. When the Eight Nation Alliance came, and sent a relief force to the delegation district, the German troops supposedly found the Boxers responsible, dragged them out to the street, and decapitated them. I see nothing wrong with a Germany that is still upset with Japan and would like revenge, and perhaps its old colony back.

Anyway, story time over.

Japan alienated its only friend in the USA by saying that the USA "abandoned" Japan because the USA didn't also declare war on Germany and Russia, even though I never gave any such agreements. The USA offered to help negotiate a peace but was refused. The absence of negotiations before the war, or any attempt to purchase the lands also came off as very belligerent on Japan's part. I think the subsequent invasion of China was also a bad move, in terms of making enemies. Granted, China was AI and you couldn't negotiate, but a player could have been nominated to handle negotiations on behalf of an AI China, or a purchase deal. Remember, the USA was an ally of China, and would have probably been able to handle negotiations on behalf of the AI China. The USA didn't first respond to the invasion of China because the country was AI, but as soon as a player took over we began negotiations for US help. It should be no surprise. Where you probably see a radically interventionist USA, I see a USA that has only ever honored defensive alliances, I see this largely because of the vacuum of sense left by glennbob's and whollaborg's Britains - of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions. With a strong (and sensible) Britain returning, "interventionist" USA as you see it is probably dead as long as its allies aren't attacked. It is also ironic you should want to stop supposed USA intervention of helping an ally who has occupied territory, with more intervention by nations with no prior DA's. I hope that explains USA's actions a little.

Currently the only supposed friend Japan has is Ojo's Spain. But that is only because you're objectives currently align. Of course, Spain and Mexico are allowed to try whatever they want, this is a game after all. The USA does have significant forces in the Pacific, but not all of them... besides, like de_Spinoza says, you can't blame me for moving troops to where the fighting is. I would also like an attempted Mexican intervention, not only would it be a fun little war, but would allow the US to nab... perhaps... Veracruz?** :D Not to mention the fact that the USA is allied with Austria, Britain, France, Denmark, and Belgium (I may be forgetting some), and is on great terms but not an official alliance with Brazil. America honored its alliances with all of these nations at one point or another, and all of these nations received help or direct aid from America in the past when they were under attack. I'm sure at least most of them haven't forgotten it and would in turn help America. I also have to thank Kensai's Japan for perhaps averting WWIII, by bringing at least Germany and the USA closer and removing barriers between the two.




*Savage Wars of Peace - Small Wars and the Rise of American Power by Max Boot, I think that's what it was called, strongly recommend it...
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_occupation_of_Veracruz

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coolbean
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:54 am

U.S. Department of War
Washington, D.C.
[HR][/HR]

The Army, Marine Corps, and Navy of the United States of America have successfully completed landings on enemy-occupied Korea. Beginning on 15 November, three simultaneous landings took place resulting in the successful liberation of two major Korean cities and miles of beach head. In the ensuing two weeks, every unit met or exceeded all objectives to minimal losses while pushing further inland and liberating most of the Korean peninsula.


Late November
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Early December
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Kensai
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:32 am

coolbean wrote:Japan alienated its only friend in the USA by saying that the USA "abandoned" Japan because the USA didn't also declare war on Germany and Russia, even though I never gave any such agreements. The USA offered to help negotiate a peace but was refused. The absence of negotiations before the war, or any attempt to purchase the lands also came off as very belligerent on Japan's part. I think the subsequent invasion of China was also a bad move, in terms of making enemies. Granted, China was AI and you couldn't negotiate, but a player could have been nominated to handle negotiations on behalf of an AI China, or a purchase deal. Remember, the USA was an ally of China, and would have probably been able to handle negotiations on behalf of the AI China. The USA didn't first respond to the invasion of China because the country was AI, but as soon as a player took over we began negotiations for US help. It should be no surprise. Where you probably see a radically interventionist USA, I see a USA that has only ever honored defensive alliances, I see this largely because of the vacuum of sense left by glennbob's and whollaborg's Britains - of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions. With a strong (and sensible) Britain returning, "interventionist" USA as you see it is probably dead as long as its allies aren't attacked. It is also ironic you should want to stop supposed USA intervention of helping an ally who has occupied territory, with more intervention by nations with no prior DA's. I hope that explains USA's actions a little.


Japan's course was a course of neutrality and keeping the balance. I didn't alienate anyone, as I didn't approach anyone. Historically accurate in the early stages of Japan's Westernization. Read the history about it, USA had every possible interest to help Japan become big and prosper. You probably think too much of Pearl Harbor and Japan in WW2, but this is out of the scope and era in this game. Japan before 1920 was not militaristic against other Western powers, it only tried to prove itself as an ascending industrial power and the other Asian nations.

The only reason I made the comments of 'help requested' was for pragmatic issues: if Japan fell, USA will not have a partner in the Far East, while I reminded the USA how I was giving it bases for its Russian and Chinese expeditions earlier (in late 50s, early 60s). You guys seem to confuse forum friendship with avatar nation cordiality. I have no issues whatsoever with any one of you in the forum, I was ''strict" because I wanted to keep the game historical and realistic. Regarding nation friendships, USA choosing to help China over Japan is simply hilarious for the context of this era. But it is USA that will lose in the long term. China decided to sell Qingdao to Germany, a naval base in the heart of the Far East. Do you even read the cues, coolbean?! Japan is not your rival, long term, the nations above you in Prestige are.

Anyway, I will prove you in game that this setting (and war) was wrong, as all parts included will be entangled in an attrition war with possibly no ending...
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Jonathan Pollard
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:30 pm

Kensai wrote: But it is USA that will lose in the long term. China decided to sell Qingdao to Germany, a naval base in the heart of the Far East. Do you even read the cues, coolbean?! Japan is not your rival, long term, the nations above you in Prestige are.

I can confirm that in secret negotiations I decided to lease Qingdao to Germany only with the prior permission and even encouragement by the USA. And I made clear to the USA that I would permanently give Qingdao to Germany only if the USA agreed to such a move, and Germany also is aware that the USA has a say in what happens to Qingdao.

The only reason I made the comments of 'help requested' was for pragmatic issues: if Japan fell, USA will not have a partner in the Far East,


While the USA might appear to have taken a big risk in trying to earn the partnership of China via its intervention because as a new player my reliability may be questioned, but it is my playing style to appropriately reward those that come to my aid in time of need, as the USA will learn in the future. For the time being, the USA can effectively consider China to be a US vassal/protectorate.
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Lindi
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Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:10 am

New of Italy

The king Umberto have survie to a terrorisme attack, the terrorisme are now dead!

Long live to the King of Italy!

[ATTACH]22989[/ATTACH]
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De_Spinoza
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Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:39 pm

The Treaty of Locarno
After several months of hard work by both German and French diplomats, finally an agreement has been reached between the two former arch-enemies. This is not only good news for our nations, but for all nations who desire peace and global stability. Rejoice for the [I]Pax Europaea![/I]

I. France will affirm that Elsass-Lothringen is an integral part of Germany, and France will renounce all claims on these territories. The French-German border will be de-militarized, excluding city fortification troops and defensive artillery.

II. Germany will return the colony of the French Congo to France.

III. Germany and France agree to a Non-Aggression pact lasting 10 years, with the possibility of renewal by mutual consent after this period. Both nations reserve the right to aid their allies, should one of said allies be attacked by the opposed signatory of this treaty.

Signed,

William Henry Waddington, Foreign Minister of France
Prince Otto von Bismarck, Chancellor and Foreign Minister of Germany

Locarno, Switzerland, the 1st of January, 1879.

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Citizen X
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Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:27 am

The Khedive of Egypt returned to his country and tries to establish a new government in the Western desert around Bawiti and Quettara. This is also to minimize uprisings in the Nile valley. He will try to gather all troops currently fighting there, not as a threat to Prussia but to disengage them. Egypt has already surrendered and several peace offers are on the table. The King of Prussia need only to put his name under one of them.

-------------

I want to end this asap. As all you wanted was to keep controll of the Canal we only need to arrange it. I can live with either way, controll of the building (which appears more elegant and "in flavor") or by keeping the region. If I can keep Sudan, then great, but basically you have a blank piece of paper that you can write something on.
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Lindi
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Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:46 am

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Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:51 am

[ATTACH]22996[/ATTACH]

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bjfagan
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Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:31 pm

Citizen X wrote:The Khedive of Egypt returned to his country and tries to establish a new government in the Western desert around Bawiti and Quettara. This is also to minimize uprisings in the Nile valley. He will try to gather all troops currently fighting there, not as a threat to Prussia but to disengage them. Egypt has already surrendered and several peace offers are on the table. The King of Prussia need only to put his name under one of them.

-------------

I want to end this asap. As all you wanted was to keep controll of the Canal we only need to arrange it. I can live with either way, controll of the building (which appears more elegant and "in flavor") or by keeping the region. If I can keep Sudan, then great, but basically you have a blank piece of paper that you can write something on.


Germany will once again evacuate Egypt, except for the Suez province. All forces will be placed on defensive mode and moved this turn. It will require one more turn before Cairo can be evacuated. German peace terms remain the same: Suez province with all structures. In the future, Germany will consider a return of the province to Egypt. Germany will also assist Egypt in reconstruction in the remaining areas of Egypt.


[ATTACH]23003[/ATTACH]
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Sir Garnet
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Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:25 pm

REINO DE PORTUGAL

It appears that all maritime nations will now need to be given passage rights by Germany, so the canal will not continue to be closed to international trafffic. [OOC: Unless 1.04 fixes, movement can not be plotted through (e.g., Portugal and France).

Ministry of Trade and Industry

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Citizen X
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Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:58 am

The Khedive apreciates and accepts the German statements. We are not entering our cities as of yet. If the German government really wants to help us rebuild the country, maybe it is possible to lay the groundworks already before exchange of ownership? We need Conserves Factories and a fertilizer plant and we believe the best places would be Cairo, Alexandria, Dumyat and Suwayf. We could alternativly make good use of trading ships, so we can start trading in the goods we need for a restart (ooc: the latter we don't have in our forcepool). Your conduct is our conduct.
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Jonathan Pollard
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Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:37 am

Citizen X wrote: We could alternativly make good use of trading ships, so we can start trading in the goods we need for a restart (ooc: the latter we don't have in our forcepool). Your conduct is our conduct.

The Chinese do not have ocean-going transport ships in their force pool. When a script was run trying to give them Swedish transports, the ships that were received were warships. Maybe something similar will happen if you try to get trading ships for Egypt.
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nemethand
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Public peace terms to end the Balkan war

Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:02 pm

As the end of winter is approaching, it may be a good time to consider wants and needs and to sit at the negotitation table, to dicuss terms to end suffering.

We have noted the fierce courage of the Ottoman soldiers who had been fighting us. Now, that our objectives are about to be reached, we believe it is unnecessary to further shed any more blood. Adrianople is besieged and completely surrounded; if an agreement is reached promptly, the lives of the brave soldiers there can be saved. Otherwise, what they face is certain and cruel death, either by starving or by the tip of Russian swords.

As a kind remainder, when the war was started, the war goals published had been:

nemethand wrote:1) The creation of free Bulgaria.

2) The transfer of Kars to Russia.

3) Compliance with Greek requests.

As soon as 1) through 3) are met, the hostilities are over.


As we have stated several times, those terms have not changed. Thus, it is hereby requested from the Sublime Port that

1) The Ottomans release Bulgarian territories and allow a free and independent nation to form there, i.e. cede those regions to Bulgarian (OOC - regions which are considered to be "Bulgarian" - do not have the game in front of me.)

2) The Ottomans transfer Kars to Russia.

3) The Ottomans transfer Thessaloniki to Greece.

Those are the Russian demands that need to be met. Additional terms, being of economic, military, political or other nature, are negotiable.

We do hope that the Sultan reconsiders his position and can agree on the peace terms. Should this not be the case, we have no other option but to advance further into mainland Turkey, causing more suffering for both friends and foes alike. We sincerely hope it will not come to that.

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Citizen X
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Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:57 pm

nemethand wrote:As the end of winter is approaching, it may be a good time to consider wants and needs and to sit at the negotitation table, to dicuss terms to end suffering.

We have noted the fierce courage of the Ottoman soldiers who had been fighting us. Now, that our objectives are about to be reached, we believe it is unnecessary to further shed any more blood. Adrianople is besieged and completely surrounded; if an agreement is reached promptly, the lives of the brave soldiers there can be saved. Otherwise, what they face is certain and cruel death, either by starving or by the tip of Russian swords.

As a kind remainder, when the war was started, the war goals published had been:



As we have stated several times, those terms have not changed. Thus, it is hereby requested from the Sublime Port that

1) The Ottomans release Bulgarian territories and allow a free and independent nation to form there, i.e. cede those regions to Bulgarian (OOC - regions which are considered to be "Bulgarian" - do not have the game in front of me.)

2) The Ottomans transfer Kars to Russia.

3) The Ottomans transfer Thessaloniki to Greece.

Those are the Russian demands that need to be met. Additional terms, being of economic, military, political or other nature, are negotiable.

We do hope that the Sultan reconsiders his position and can agree on the peace terms. Should this not be the case, we have no other option but to advance further into mainland Turkey, causing more suffering for both friends and foes alike. We sincerely hope it will not come to that.



The Council of the Fieldcommanders must reject.

A. There is no Ottoman government at hand that has enough authority to negotiate away Ottoman territory. You should have considered this before threatening our capital.
B. We made it clear in the past that this is a war mainly aimed to eliminate the Ottoman Empire as a nation by strifing it off their best provinces, now suddenly even Saloniki.
C. To call this an "offer" insults our intelligence, as well as our pride.
D. It wasn't necessary to shed any blood in the first place.
E. What Greece?

This war will end either with the complete withdrawal from Ottoman soil or never. If we can achieve nothing else, we will make the Czar put a bayonetpost behind every turcish peasant and citizen until it comes to other powers attentions, that the entire Russian army is occupied with occupying.
The terms we are presented with are in no way "peace terms" but can only be the root for more bloodshed in the future, even were they accepted. We had sincerely hoped for a suggestion that had left the window open for good neighborship but we see that the Russian and Greek cannot be counseled. As you have dropped the mask with this latest evidence of your bloodthirst; and as you have clearly and for everybody well to be seen decided to destroy our land and nation; as well as our people; we, the Ottoman field commanders declare that we indeed can play the game by your terms. You have made yourself a archenemy. We shall not give you peace but war. Not only reject we your latest insult now, but also can anybody who goes into armed engagement with either of your nations count on the alliance of the Ottoman people. This overrules any otherwise diplomatic settlement, now or in the future. Maybe now you know what you have brought upon you.

Never send to know for whom the bell tolls...
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nemethand
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Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:06 pm

Citizen X wrote:The Council of the Fieldcommanders must reject.

...

This war will end either with the complete withdrawal from Ottoman soil or never. If we can achieve nothing else, we will make the Czar put a bayonetpost behind every turcish peasant and citizen until it comes to other powers attentions, that the entire Russian army is occupied with occupying.
The terms we are presented with are in no way "peace terms" but can only be the root for more bloodshed in the future, even were they accepted. We had sincerely hoped for a suggestion that had left the window open for good neighborship but we see that the Russian and Greek cannot be counseled.


We then kindly enquire for terms offered by the Council of Fieldcommanders. A complete withdrawal is obviously not a suitable terms, since, as you yourself had put forward, Russian forces are succeeding.

Citizen X wrote: As you have dropped the mask with this latest evidence of your bloodthirst; and as you have clearly and for everybody well to be seen decided to destroy our land and nation; as well as our people;


We kindly wonder which of three sentences we have published drives you to this conclusion. Moreover, members of the Council are either unable to read or to remember; these are terms that have been standing from the very first day of this war.

Clearly, it is the Council which has a thirst for blood; as evidenced by the latest offensive moves, which, too, badly failed, by the way.

[ATTACH]23018[/ATTACH]

EDIT: After being notified by the Greek government of our error, Clause 3 is amended and reads as follows:

3) The Ottomans transfer Thessalia (Larissa) to Greece.
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Citizen X
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Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:17 pm

nemethand wrote:We then kindly enquire for terms offered by the Council of Fieldcommanders. A complete withdrawal is obviously not a suitable terms, since, as you yourself had put forward, Russian forces are succeeding.



We kindly wonder which of three sentences we have published drives you to this conclusion. Moreover, members of the Council are either unable to read or to remember; these are terms that have been standing from the very first day of this war.

Clearly, it is the Council which has a thirst for blood; as evidenced by the latest offensive moves, which, too, badly failed, by the way.

[ATTACH]23018[/ATTACH]

EDIT: After being notified by the Greek government of our error, Clause 3 is amended and reads as follows:

3) The Ottomans transfer Thessalia (Larissa) to Greece.



We have nothing to add. But we are glad you took the liberty as to show the world the Russian way of free passage.
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Jim-NC
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Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:13 pm

British Diplomatic note to Belligerents in Asia (China/USA/Germany vs. Japan):

Our government is concerned with the war that is being waged in Asia at this very moment. We have tried to be a mediator between the warring parties, but to no avail. We strenuously request that the parties sit down at the negotiating table. We know first hand that war is destructive by it's nature, and that once aroused, the passions of the war will overrule all senses. You must not allow this to happen.

To that end, we again offer our services as a mediator to the parties involved.

We believe that a white peace, with the return of all territory to their respective pre-war owners (Korea and Formosa and any other islands fought over) is in the best interests of all.

To the Chinese - this gives you all your territory back.
To the Americans - this satisfies the demands of honor, and initiates peace
To the Germans - No blood needs be spilled, and peace would be restored. You would be allowed to keep your basing rights
To the Japanese - this allows peace before the home islands are attacked. You do not gain from this solution, but you do not lose anything you have gained in your country so far.

We can only see 3 ways for this war to end:
1. White peace with honor
2. The destruction of the Japanese people
3. Escalation of the war, involving the destruction of many more territories and peoples

We do not believe that either options 2 or 3 serve any nation, and urge all parties to accept consider peace before it is too late.

Prime Minister Disraeli, Conservative Party
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Kensai
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Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:56 am

Japan will not negotiate anymore. Unless:

- A coalition is formed to eradicate the German plague in the Far East (all assets and colonies will be partitioned among victors)
- Korea becomes a Japanese protectorate.
- China pays 1000 State Funds each year for 5 years as war reparations.
- The USA and France break off their alliance with China and form one with Japan.
- Great Britain can join this coalition to get back its lost African colonies from Germany or stay neutral.


If any of the above conditions is not met, Japan will severe all diplomatic relations and continue total war with any aggressors. There will be no negotiations, even if we succumb under full occupation we are ready to hit the caves and mountains and do resistance for years to come. We are ready for a long occupation that will eventually wear down the occupier(s) as other more peaceful nations surpass them in deeds. As they lose hundreds of soldiers due to attrition and partisans, we will be working behind the scenes with other nations that desire to hit the aggressors while we keep them occupied here. Nippon will be their grave!

Long live the Emperor!


OOC: Go on, be an unhistorical enemy of Japan! :w00t:
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De_Spinoza
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Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:35 pm

Kensai wrote:Japan will not negotiate anymore. Unless:

- A coalition is formed to eradicate the German plague in the Far East (all assets and colonies will be partitioned among victors)
- Korea becomes a Japanese protectorate.
- China pays 1000 State Funds each year for 5 years as war reparations.
- The USA and France break off their alliance with China and form one with Japan.
- Great Britain can join this coalition to get back its lost African colonies from Germany or stay neutral.


If any of the above conditions is not met, Japan will severe all diplomatic relations and continue total war with any aggressors. There will be no negotiations, even if we succumb under full occupation we are ready to hit the caves and mountains and do resistance for years to come. We are ready for a long occupation that will eventually wear down the occupier(s) as other more peaceful nations surpass them in deeds. As they lose hundreds of soldiers due to attrition and partisans, we will be working behind the scenes with other nations that desire to hit the aggressors while we keep them occupied here. Nippon will be their grave!

Long live the Emperor!


OOC: Go on, be an unhistorical enemy of Japan! :w00t:


France considers these demands unrealistic and bizarre.

1. A coalition has been formed with Germany to protect China from Japanese aggression. Why any nation involved in this conflict would now want to form a coalition against Germany, as Japan is suggesting, remains a mystery to us.

2. Japan has been ousted from Korea. On what ground does Japan now claim these lands?

3. China has independently defeated Japanese troops on their mainland, and they are most certainly not the aggressor in this conflict. If there is a nation that should pay reparations, it is Japan, the initiator of this conflict. Japan should be content with not (yet!) having to pay reparations and simply accept the kind offer of a white peace.

4. Demanding an end of the French-U.S. friendship with China is as insulting as it is bizarre. Japan was aware of this alliance before it started the war, presumably gambling that we would not intervene. What gives Japan the right to demand we break off our alliance with our most important partner in Asia?

To sum this all up: what gave Japan the arrogance to demand these matters as the losing party in a war? A white peace is the most generous offer the belligerents could have offered you. We fear that the other two options outlined by the British mediator will indeed become real this way.

OOC: Kensai, as said before unhistorical early expansion has this time resulted in unhistorical early enemies... No reason for ruining your nation.

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Kensai
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Location: Freiburg, Germany

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:47 pm

De_Spinoza wrote:France considers these demands unrealistic and bizarre.

Not more bizarre than other things that happen: ie Brazil having the potential of a huge navy, China waking up midwar and doing diplomacy due the addition of a player, France changing its course completely after almost 3 decades of Vezina's careful and friendly relations with Japan, USA preferring to be a partner of China and not of Japan, Germany holding a grudge as a human, Spain not responding because of real life issues, Austria not being able to commit cause it will abandon the game, etc... and all this while acting as preemptive strike only possible in much hindsight. :)

OOC: Kensai, as said before unhistorical early expansion has this time resulted in unhistorical early enemies... No reason for ruining your nation.


I am not ruining anything. If Japan goes down, the nations that allied against Japan will go down with it. It is you that actually ruin your nations. Japan has nothing to lose anymore. :)

(there was no "early expansion", the expansion was completely in par with the pace of the game and its alternate reality capabilities. As a matter of fact, given that we didn't stop early enough the colonial actions we might even say it was a VERY LATE expansion.)

---

You forget the game is long.... veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long. :D

Now, let's play!
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lukasberger
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:59 pm

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:49 pm

De_Spinoza wrote:France considers these demands unrealistic and bizarre.

1. A coalition has been formed with Germany to protect China from Japanese aggression. Why any nation involved in this conflict would now want to form a coalition against Germany, as Japan is suggesting, remains a mystery to us.

2. Japan has been ousted from Korea. On what ground does Japan now claim these lands?

3. China has independently defeated Japanese troops on their mainland, and they are most certainly not the aggressor in this conflict. If there is a nation that should pay reparations, it is Japan, the initiator of this conflict. Japan should be content with not (yet!) having to pay reparations and simply accept the kind offer of a white peace.

4. Demanding an end of the French-U.S. friendship with China is as insulting as it is bizarre. Japan was aware of this alliance before it started the war, presumably gambling that we would not intervene. What gives Japan the right to demand we break off our alliance with our most important partner in Asia?

To sum this all up: what gave Japan the arrogance to demand these matters as the losing party in a war? A white peace is the most generous offer the belligerents could have offered you. We fear that the other two options outlined by the British mediator will indeed become real this way.

OOC: Kensai, as said before unhistorical early expansion has this time resulted in unhistorical early enemies... No reason for ruining your nation.


Austria is in full agreement with France.

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Kensai
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Location: Freiburg, Germany

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:52 pm

lukasberger wrote:Austria is in full agreement with France.


I would be surprised if Austria wasn't! :D
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lukasberger
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Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:53 pm

Kensai wrote:Austria not being able to commit cause it will abandon the game, etc


Austria is not committing because we do not support the Japanese war efforts and will not fight half the world in the aid of a nation that has shown little interest in, or friendship for Austria before they wanted something from us. No other reason. We no longer contemplate a change of government, so that is not an issue in our decision

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Kensai
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 pm
Location: Freiburg, Germany

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:55 pm

lukasberger wrote:Austria is not committing because we do not support the Japanese war efforts and will not fight half the world in the aid of a nation that has shown little interest in, or friendship for Austria before they wanted something from us. No other reason. We no longer contemplate a change of government, so that is not an issue in our decision


Only that? I thought nations were playing and thinking like humans. I am disappointed. :D
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Jonathan Pollard
Major
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Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:52 pm

Kensai wrote: China waking up midwar and doing diplomacy due the addition of a player

And whose fault is it that this game has no houserule against humans taking over AI countries in the middle of a war?
"Two suspects are in FBI custody after a truckload of explosives was discovered around the George Washington Bridge...the FBI...says enough explosives were in the truck to do great damage to the George Washington Bridge." Dan Rather of CBS News, 9/11/2001

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