Are CP for leaders too high?

[jack54]

Hi all,

One of my favorite things to do in RUS, as in othe AGE titles, is to assemble forces. I do notice that in RUS 3-4 star leaders have so many command points ( 48 IIRC) that no other leader is needed unless he has a special quality you would like to add to the stack.
Just throwing this out there but maybe less CP's would be better; forcing the use of 1 star leaders?

Thanks
Jack

[andatiep]

+1

Please post proposals in this thread about the new Max CP values for Army/Corps you all would like to fix for the next patch.

What do you think also about a small reduction of the number of Max elements in a divisionnal unit ?

[Orel]

+1

Please post proposals in this thread about the new Max CP values for Army/Corps you all would like to fix for the next patch.

What do you think also about a small reduction of the number of Max elements in a divisionnal unit ?

Reduction of divisional elements: a bad idea IMHO. By the way, where could I change the number of max elements?

[jack54]

+1

Please post proposals in this thread about the new Max CP values for Army/Corps you all would like to fix for the next patch.

What do you think also about a small reduction of the number of Max elements in a divisionnal unit ?

My main concern is the CP of the 3/4* and 2* leaders... (RUS seems out of order with 48 and 12 cp...IMHO)
from the manuals:

AACW (1* 4cp) (2* 8cp) (3/4* 12 cp) max 16

NC (1*- 3cp ) (2*- 6cp) (3/4*- 9cp) Max 12

ROP (1*- 4cp ) (2*- 8cp) (3/4*- 12cp) max ?

RUS (1*- 4cp) (2* 12cp) (3/4*- 48cp) max ?

To increase the need/use of 1* leaders --- lower 3/4* from 48cp down to 24 or even lower... and possibly lower the 2* from 12 to 10 or even 8. (The numbers may need adjusting)

I'm really not sure about the element cap... might hurt the Reds more than the Whites.

It would be great to know what other players think about lowering the CP's.

Thanks!

[Baris]

I think it was max 42 CP or similar points for ROP. But for RUS it was mentioned before it was a historical design for men under one leader. But for Drang scenario it is making any corps structure useless. Just a doomstack. Reduction of divisional elements can be a solution as whites can also construct divisional size units. The difference is economy. But I think the other main problem is casualty rates.

[Philo32b]

What would the effect be on the Red/White balance of power if the game shrunk the command points from leaders? It seems that it would make the Reds less powerful relative to the Whites: the Whites generally can have generals sitting around unused, and so these could be used to make up the difference. But the Reds are in desperate short supply until later in the game.

Also it seems that shrinking divisional max elements would serve to tax the officer pool, just like reducing command points, because more officers would be needed to command the elements that can't be fit in the new smaller divisions. Changing the game in both these ways (command points and divisional size) could put a lot of stress on the officer pool, especially on the Reds.

[andatiep]

About the officer pool, i don't think there is such stress. Currently, there is plenty of designed leaders that players never see in their games, because :
- it is expensive in EP (-4)
- it is still random to get it even when you activated the Option
- the pools are big, and so few leaders are on the map at the start of each scenarios.
- As pointed in this thread, the CP capacity of the main Army/Corps stacks is so huge that you don't need so many new leaders

So considering that it is a pitty that so many originally designed leaders (who now many of them have even a nice leader graphic from Jack54 ) could never be seen in the games at all, the next patch changes planed are :
- EP cost reduced to -2EP
- a regular random event will offer sometimes a free leader from the pool during the game (even if players don't activated the More leader Option).
- few leaders more are on the map at the start of the Grand and middle campaign (in fact, the leaders which biography said that they were already commanding at least a brigade are placed historically where they were).
- a reduction of the 2* and 3* leaders' CP


There is also something which could be good about leaders' micro-management, especially to counter-balance the low activation chance of Red leader which block its button : to implement that a leader can form a division even if he is inactive (i think AJE does like that, isn't it ? i hope PhilThib or Pocus could confirm that we could set it in a simple way for RUS).

[jack54]

But for RUS it was mentioned before it was a historical design for men under one leader. .

I think it's a 'very good' thing getting more leaders into the game and really like the proposed changes in the patch. I guess the question will be "what amount of CP reduction adds to gameplay but does not compromise the ('historic feel')". I've already mentioned my opinion but my historical knowledge of RUS is 'limited' at best.

[DanSez]

the DNO scenario has a lot more problems than just CPs -

I am for a system that favors the Soviet mass wave feel the current game has. I like the idea of more leaders at the start and easier to generate. Is there a way to have the Soviet side with an extra 1 or 2 CP per star to reflect this?

[Narwhal]

I think there is actually a major stress for NW-Whites / Northern Whites. I once played a game or for various reasons they became a force to be reckoned with (they took Petersburg, and reached Moscow at the same time as the Southern Whites, after liberating everything on the way, and even some extra cities), and all my armies had command penalties while the leader pool was completely empty. I am pretty sure that with Petersburg in my hands, I could managed to get a few more leaders on my side (looking at you, Brusilov) directly from there.

[andatiep]

I am for a system that favors the Soviet mass wave feel the current game has.

Well, if we don't reduce the element cap in division units, don't worry, you will still have this feeling :-)

I think there is actually a major stress for NW-Whites / Northern Whites.

You're right, in some situation, it could. But i suppose most of the capable historical White leaders are already in the game, distributed in the various White factions, and we probably can't imagine more and stay in a "historical dimension".
I read many exemples where Whites general were moved from a front to another, between Siberia, Black sea and Northern fronts (mostly because of internal political struggles or so). Some even died in their difficult way. It is not possible to design simply the move of WH3 leaders to WHI side in the game, but players can always send Southern White leaders in all other western fronts (by ships or alone through enemy territories). They will not be able to merge units to create divisions with N-W or Northern Whites subfactions' units, but if they are 2 or 3 stars generals, they can manage corps or army and really increase the CP of this subfactions. I don't think we can do more :-(.

I am pretty sure that with Petersburg in my hands, I could managed to get a few more leaders on my side (looking at you, Brusilov) directly from there.

I don't believe the Whites could find more than the grave of Brusilov or such hostage leaders after an offensive... He and his family was closely guarded by the Cheka wherever they was and the Sovnarkom never let him command any troops on the field during the RCW. They only used him in Moscow as a puppet for their propaganda during the late war with Poland...

[Baris]

I think it's a 'very good' thing getting more leaders into the game and really like the proposed changes in the patch. I guess the question will be "what amount of CP reduction adds to gameplay but does not compromise the ('historic feel')". I've already mentioned my opinion but my historical knowledge of RUS is 'limited' at best.

"Men under one leader" reads and sounds cool. : ) But I agree with the points. Additionally I don't think any change in the database or code will be compatible with Drang Scenario. (at least someone prefers more micromanagement, I prefer) That scenario is different game with different scale of units. But to summarize , CP given to stacks with leaders is very high I think.

[andatiep]

I will then try with values more close to the others AGE games :
1* : 4cp
2* : 10 cp
3/4* 16 cp (max 22)

When we will reach the next patch Beta testing stage, we will have a better view of the needs (especially for the DNO scenario) to re-balance if necessary the CP cap or to provide more leaders on the map at the start of scenarios which need it.

[Narwhal]

You're right, in some situation, it could. But i suppose most of the capable historical White leaders are already in the game, distributed in the various White factions, and we probably can't imagine more and stay in a "historical dimension".
I read many exemples where Whites general were moved from a front to another, between Siberia, Black sea and Northern fronts (mostly because of internal political struggles or so). Some even died in their difficult way. It is not possible to design simply the move of WH3 leaders to WHI side in the game, but players can always send Southern White leaders in all other western fronts (by ships or alone through enemy territories). They will not be able to merge units to create divisions with N-W or Northern Whites subfactions' units, but if they are 2 or 3 stars generals, they can manage corps or army and really increase the CP of this subfactions. I don't think we can do more :-(.

I see the point, but the Northern Whites (and NW) can only create units with 1 elements, so that's a real issue for me.
Solutions I see :
Allow them to create "multi-elements" units, so the problem is not as bad or
Duplicate several minor White leaders in Southern, North and NW White version. When one gets selected from one of the pools, he gets deleted from the other pools.

[andatiep]

I see the point, but the Northern Whites (and NW) can only create units with 1 elements, so that's a real issue for me.
Solutions I see :
Allow them to create "multi-elements" units, so the problem is not as bad or
Duplicate several minor White leaders in Southern, North and NW White version. When one gets selected from one of the pools, he gets deleted from the other pools.

Mmmh... This solutions create other problems and too much works...
....So i announce you the birth of a new ability :
"Western White commander" - "This Western White commander can form division unit with Northern and North-Western White elements."
Most "basic" Southern Whites leaders got it and have now a reason more to leave the sun for the frozen fronts, even if they are 1 star generals.

[Orel]

I see the point, but the Northern Whites (and NW) can only create units with 1 elements, so that's a real issue for me.
Solutions I see :
Allow them to create "multi-elements" units, so the problem is not as bad or
Duplicate several minor White leaders in Southern, North and NW White version. When one gets selected from one of the pools, he gets deleted from the other pools.

You may be surprised, however in my mod this was exactly what I did: Every White faction received an opportunity to form one regiment consisting of 3000 from three other regiments.

[Narwhal]

Mmmh... This solutions create other problems and too much works...
....So i announce you the birth of a new ability :
"Western White commander" - "This Western White commander can form division unit with Northern and North-Western White elements."
Most "basic" Southern Whites leaders got it and have now a reason more to leave the sun for the frozen fronts, even if they are 1 star generals.

As for Gameplay, it fixes the issue, but then one may wonder why Denikin, or Wrangel, can't lead Russians from the North.
Also, the player will now generate Southern White leaders when he needs more NW leaders, which is strange.

I can propose a simpler solution : make all the NW leaders able to lead and make division with Northern Whites, and the opposite. The two pools combined would be a step in a good direction.

[Orel]

Mmmh... This solutions create other problems and too much works...
....So i announce you the birth of a new ability :
"Western White commander" - "This Western White commander can form division unit with Northern and North-Western White elements."
Most "basic" Southern Whites leaders got it and have now a reason more to leave the sun for the frozen fronts, even if they are 1 star generals.

Andatiep, rather than try and create a new ability that would cover just part of the Whites it would be more beneficial to do the following: create the "Russian Officer" ability that would give the ability to command any of the Russian White units, with the exception of Don Cossacks, and give this ability to every white general. This would also allow the Komuch generals to command Siberian forces as it happened to be in reality, but not in the game.

After all, all White Generals came out of the Russian Imperial Army, so they could command any of the white forces that emerged in the Russian Empire. So for example, recently I came across General Kislitsyn: he first served in Skoropadsky's Ukranian Army, then in the North Army of General Miller and finally he went to Siberia where he ended the war. Grishin-Almazov is too an example, he came from Novocherkassk to Siberia in early 1918, commanded the Siberian Army and then was sent to Odessa. So rather than making a billion abilities each of which would allow one white faction generals to command another, I would like to suggest to just add one universal ability that would solve the problem once and for all.

[Narwhal]

Orel's position, more generalist than mine, is also better than mine. Agree 100%

[andatiep]

Agreed.